Author Topic: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist  (Read 6384 times)

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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2013, 09:26:37 PM »
No, that is agnostic doctrine.

Theist = God is real.

Agnostic = no evidence either way.

Atheist = No God.

Oh, so now there's "agnostic doctrine"?

So what are these "agnostic doctrine" and "atheist doctrine" you speak of?  None exists, to my knowledge.

Atheist doctrine:

Universe started from nothing.
Laws formed on their own.
Stars and galaxies and solar systems formed on their own.
Life formed on its own.
Life evolved on its own over billions of years to reach its current state.

All that happened on its own and we can't even create a grain of sand on our own.

Atheists simply say that there is no god.

That other stuff is science. And you clearly don't understand anything about it, because you stated your objections in such a way that it is clear that you're ignorant about ever aspect of it.

We can make sand, but we don't have to. Its funny that a guy using a computer thinks that we have no control over silica. That's what all your chips are made out of. And we can do more than nature. Like make flexible minerals

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130315074513.htm

Edit: Added clarification

That articles claims they used the material that already existed in sea sponges. Unless the scientists created the sea sponges from scratch, it means absolutely nothing.

I even read that scientists are study the material of a spider's web because it is way more durable than any material we can make from scratch.

It's funny how mindless nature can outsmart human minds....
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2013, 09:28:18 PM »
Atheist doctrine:

Universe started from nothing.
Laws formed on their own.
Stars and galaxies and solar systems formed on their own.
Life formed on its own.
Life evolved on its own over billions of years to reach its current state.

All that happened on its own and we can't even create a grain of sand on our own.

You've only listed a strawman version of the creation of the universe.  It has nothing to do with atheism.

"Atheism" only means that one does not believe in god-beings.  It has nothing to do with how they think the universe formed.  Someone could believe the universe was created by a unicorn and a jug of milk, and still be an atheist.  Just as long as they don't consider those things to be gods.


Why is there this thinking that atheism involves beliefs in the origin of the universe?  It keeps popping up, and no matter how many times it's shot down, someone keeps bringing it up again and again.

OK, then I am curious about what your belief is.

How do you think the universe was formed?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Emily

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2013, 09:29:54 PM »
However the universe was formed has nothing whatsoever to do with what an atheist believes. I hate it when theists pull this crap.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2013, 09:30:01 PM »
Why is there this thinking that atheism involves beliefs in the origin of the universe?  It keeps popping up, and no matter how many times it's shot down, someone keeps bringing it up again and again.

Now you know how we feel about the problem of evil and various other "problems" with God.

That's why I say it's better to agree to disagree but you guys don't agree with that.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2013, 09:32:23 PM »
However the universe was formed has nothing whatsoever to do with what an atheist believes. I hate it when theists pull this crap.

So then what do you believe?

You obviously have no belief on how the universe was formed, which is one of mankind's greatest questions.

Should I just assume you're no different from a slug, who also don't wonder about the universe?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2013, 09:38:03 PM »
That articles claims they used the material that already existed in sea sponges. Unless the scientists created the sea sponges from scratch, it means absolutely nothing.

I even read that scientists are study the material of a spider's web because it is way more durable than any material we can make from scratch.

It's funny how mindless nature can outsmart human minds....

Okay, if you're gonna get nitpick, graphene does not exist in nature. We invented it. We make it. It is the strongest material ever known.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2008/jul/17/graphene-has-record-breaking-strength

Take that, nature!

Which I otherwise appreciate. But you on the computer, how ya doin' that if nature knows everything?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2013, 09:39:24 PM »
Atheists must have some kind of beliefs. Otherwise you guys are no different from a table or a lamp.

Atheists always tell us what they don't believe, but never what they DO believe.

if it's "nothing" that they believe in, then that's just weird. My table believes in nothing too.

Why do you think atheism hasn't attracted many followers throughout history? Because it's too empty of a doctrine.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Emily

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2013, 09:40:20 PM »
So then what do you believe?

You obviously have no belief on how the universe was formed, which is one of mankind's greatest questions.

Should I just assume you're no different from a slug, who also don't wonder about the universe?

Oh now, I do have a belief in how the universe was formed, but it has nothing to do with my lack of belief in a god.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2013, 09:42:15 PM »
Oh now, I do have a belief in how the universe was formed, but it has nothing to do with my lack of belief in a god.

Of course it does. Don't be silly.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2013, 09:42:24 PM »
OK, then I am curious about what your belief is.

How do you think the universe was formed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

However, this is not my "belief".  This is simply what I accept as the best idea that we currently have of the formation of the universe as we know it.  I accept it because it's what the evidence we have points to best.  It has nothing to do with being an atheist, it only has to do with what the scientific evidence tells us.  Even as a christian, I accepted the idea of the Big Bang theory (as in; "ok, this is how god created the universe).

If the evidence pointed to a jug of milk creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Unicron creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Harry Potter creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Luke Skywalker creating the universe, then I would accept that.


The keyword here being evidence.  I am an atheist only because there is a lack of evidence for the existence of god-beings, let alone the idea that they created everything as we know it.  If actual, tangible, solid, creditable evidence were to pop up for the existence of god-beings, then I would change my mind.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 09:44:47 PM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2013, 09:42:59 PM »
However the universe was formed has nothing whatsoever to do with what an atheist believes. I hate it when theists pull this crap.

So then what do you believe?

You obviously have no belief on how the universe was formed, which is one of mankind's greatest questions.

Should I just assume you're no different from a slug, who also don't wonder about the universe?

Your expertise on slugs is impressive. You one?

Wondering and answering are two different things. You would do well to figure out a way to understand that. Whereas not wondering but making up answers is one thing: Ignorant.

We atheists only make up about 20% of the population. Many a scientist is also a theist. And many a theist accepts the formation of the universe as it appears to have happened. And many a theist and many an atheist is open to alternative explanations for the universe if new clues point in different directions.

Science does the best it can with what it has. Fundamentalist christians do nothing with nothing. Which is technically impossible. You guys are good.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 09:46:13 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2013, 09:45:51 PM »
OK, then I am curious about what your belief is.

How do you think the universe was formed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

However, this is not my "belief".  This is simply what I accept as the best idea that we currently have of the formation of the universe as we know it.  I accept it because it's what the evidence we have points to best.  It has nothing to do with being an atheist, it only has to do with what the scientific evidence tells us.  Even as a christian, I accepted the idea of the Big Bang theory (as in; "ok, this is how god created the universe).

If the evidence pointed to a jug of milk creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Unicron creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Harry Potter creating the universe, then I would accept that.

If the evidence pointed to Luke Skywalker creating the universe, then I would accept that.


The keyword here being evidence.  I am an atheist only because there is a lack of evidence for the existence of god-beings, let alone the idea that they created everything as we know it.  If actual, tangible, solid, creditable evidence were to pop up for the existence of god-beings, then I would change my mind.

But, it is a belief because you have no idea if the Big Bang will be accepted in 100 years from now. Science has changed its tune more often than we change our underwear.

So, Big Bang is your current belief, but it could be wrong in 100 years and people 100 years form now will be going, "Can you believe those idiots believe din the Big Bang? LOL!"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »
Holy thread progression, batman. I ask a couple of "devils advocate' questions and I come back to 100 new posts.

Let me get a bit more work done and I'll add my 2 cents.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2013, 09:49:42 PM »
But, it is a belief because you have no idea if the Big Bang will be accepted in 100 years from now. Science has changed its tune more often than we change our underwear.

So, Big Bang is your current belief, but it could be wrong in 100 years and people 100 years form now will be going, "Can you believe those idiots believe din the Big Bang? LOL!"

Absolutely correct. Except that they will understand why we were wrong. They will know things that they know we did not. They will know things that we technologically have no access to. They will understand why we were wrong.

A hundred years from now, you guys will be wrong for exactly the same reasons you are now, and the technologies and discoveries that you have ignored for the last 400 years won't have changed a whit.

That you think you are winning this argument right now just goes to show how little you actually know.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2013, 09:50:17 PM »
That articles claims they used the material that already existed in sea sponges. Unless the scientists created the sea sponges from scratch, it means absolutely nothing.

I even read that scientists are study the material of a spider's web because it is way more durable than any material we can make from scratch.

It's funny how mindless nature can outsmart human minds....

Okay, if you're gonna get nitpick, graphene does not exist in nature. We invented it. We make it. It is the strongest material ever known.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2008/jul/17/graphene-has-record-breaking-strength

Take that, nature!

Which I otherwise appreciate. But you on the computer, how ya doin' that if nature knows everything?

No, the material spiders use to make their webs is the strongest material on earth.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2013, 09:50:48 PM »
Holy thread progression, batman. I ask a couple of "devils advocate' questions and I come back to 100 new posts.

Let me get a bit more work done and I'll add my 2 cents.

You're actually that Pandora chick, aren't you  ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2013, 09:51:25 PM »
Atheists must have some kind of beliefs. Otherwise you guys are no different from a table or a lamp.

Tables are (generally) made of wood.  We aren't.  Lamps emits light.  We don't.

Point refuted.

Quote
Atheists always tell us what they don't believe, but never what they DO believe.

There's actually a very good reason for that.  The term "atheist" does not refers to what they do believe in, it tells us what they do not believe in.  However, this "do not believe in" is limited to only one thing.  God-beings.


Quote
if it's "nothing" that they believe in, then that's just weird. My table believes in nothing too.

I do not know what "nothing" is, or how is it that a table believes in thing, or how its able to communicate that to you.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2013, 09:51:38 PM »
But, it is a belief because you have no idea if the Big Bang will be accepted in 100 years from now. Science has changed its tune more often than we change our underwear.

So, Big Bang is your current belief, but it could be wrong in 100 years and people 100 years form now will be going, "Can you believe those idiots believe din the Big Bang? LOL!"

Absolutely correct. Except that they will understand why we were wrong. They will know things that they know we did not. They will know things that we technologically have no access to. They will understand why we were wrong.

A hundred years from now, you guys will be wrong for exactly the same reasons you are now, and the technologies and discoveries that you have ignored for the last 400 years won't have changed a whit.

That you think you are winning this argument right now just goes to show how little you actually know.

So you admit the Big Bang could be wrong?
Well, no sense in bothering with it then.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2013, 09:53:04 PM »
Atheists must have some kind of beliefs. Otherwise you guys are no different from a table or a lamp.

Tables are (generally) made of wood.  We aren't.  Lamps emits light.  We don't.

Point refuted.

Quote
Atheists always tell us what they don't believe, but never what they DO believe.

There's actually a very good reason for that.  The term "atheist" does not refers to what they do believe in, it tells us what they do not believe in.  However, this "do not believe in" is limited to only one thing.  God-beings.


Quote
if it's "nothing" that they believe in, then that's just weird. My table believes in nothing too.

I do not know what "nothing" is, or how is it that a table believes in thing, or how its able to communicate that to you.

So basically, you have no beliefs or thoughts about beliefs?
And I should become atheist, why? To have no beliefs?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2013, 09:56:18 PM »
That articles claims they used the material that already existed in sea sponges. Unless the scientists created the sea sponges from scratch, it means absolutely nothing.

I even read that scientists are study the material of a spider's web because it is way more durable than any material we can make from scratch.

It's funny how mindless nature can outsmart human minds....

Okay, if you're gonna get nitpick, graphene does not exist in nature. We invented it. We make it. It is the strongest material ever known.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2008/jul/17/graphene-has-record-breaking-strength

Take that, nature!

Which I otherwise appreciate. But you on the computer, how ya doin' that if nature knows everything?

No, the material spiders use to make their webs is the strongest material on earth.

You are just plain wrong. Black Widow Spider webs are indeed quite strong, the strongest of any spider, I believe. but I can go under my porch and tear out their webs quite easily. The one that was living in my stove was a nuisance, because I had to sweep her webs out of the way to get my pots and pans. I didn't starve to death for lack of cooked food. So they aren't that strong.

There is a spider in Madagascar who has weaves with the strongest NATURAL biological material known. Very impressive. But nothing compared to graphene.

But if delusions are always so important that you don't want the truth about anything, go for it dude.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2013, 09:58:36 PM »
So you admit the Big Bang could be wrong?
Well, no sense in bothering with it then.

A. Being wrong doesn't stop you from believing in your god
B. We have evidence that says it did happen. We have other evidence that says that perhaps it happened a different way. You don't want to know about the second one because then you'd be twice as confused. We who appreciate science can handle both the fact that we don't know everything and the fact that we might be wrong. In the meantime, at least we know something.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2013, 10:00:10 PM »
But, it is a belief because you have no idea if the Big Bang will be accepted in 100 years from now. Science has changed its tune more often than we change our underwear.

If science "changes its tune" on the Big Bang, it will be because new evidence will have surfaced, and said evidence would be superior to everything we have at this point.

You make this sound like a bad thing, or at least a weakness on my part.  It isn't.  There is nothing shameful about going with the best evidence available to you, and then dropping in favor of new evidence.  That is, of course, assuming that the new evidence is stronger than the old.  That's how science works.


Quote
So, Big Bang is your current belief, but it could be wrong in 100 years and people 100 years form now will be going, "Can you believe those idiots believe din the Big Bang? LOL!"

I would hope that people 100 years from now would be aware that we did the best we could with the evidence available to us at the time.  Again, nothing is shameful about understanding things within the restraints given to you.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2013, 10:00:21 PM »
That articles claims they used the material that already existed in sea sponges. Unless the scientists created the sea sponges from scratch, it means absolutely nothing.

I even read that scientists are study the material of a spider's web because it is way more durable than any material we can make from scratch.

It's funny how mindless nature can outsmart human minds....

Okay, if you're gonna get nitpick, graphene does not exist in nature. We invented it. We make it. It is the strongest material ever known.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2008/jul/17/graphene-has-record-breaking-strength

Take that, nature!

Which I otherwise appreciate. But you on the computer, how ya doin' that if nature knows everything?

No, the material spiders use to make their webs is the strongest material on earth.

You are just plain wrong. Black Widow Spider webs are indeed quite strong, the strongest of any spider, I believe. but I can go under my porch and tear out their webs quite easily. The one that was living in my stove was a nuisance, because I had to sweep her webs out of the way to get my pots and pans. I didn't starve to death for lack of cooked food. So they aren't that strong.

There is a spider in Madagascar who has weaves with the strongest NATURAL biological material known. Very impressive. But nothing compared to graphene.

But if delusions are always so important that you don't want the truth about anything, go for it dude.

But, this is what we are talking about with the atheist's inconsistency with morals.

Atheists would say that it would be immoral to blow up somebody's house but it's OK to just sweep away a spider's home?

On what basis/standard is it OK to wipe away a spider's home but not a human being's home?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2013, 10:01:57 PM »
I do not understand why you atheists claim to say that theistic morals are bad when you just admitted that forgiveness is not in your vocabulary. All you would do is a pummeling beatdown.

No, that's not all I would do, Skeptic.  Did you notice that I was waiting for the police as I held off the home invasion?  Did you also notice that I didn't outright shoot the intruders?  I know how to shoot a gun and a bow, both of which are legal to own in Canada.  I've owned a bow, and I've had a Firearms Acquisition Certificate but let it lapse because I wasn't comfortable keeping firearms in My home.

I also have ten living beings to protect in My home:  2 humans, 5 cats and 3 fish.  I care more about any one of them than about anyone who would be so rude as to enter without permission.

What I do find fascinating is your seeming obsession with the logistics of attacking little old ladies and getting away with it.  That isn't something that I, as an agnostic atheist deity, tend to dwell on very often.  I'm reasonably confident that for the most part I live among generous, considerate and law-abiding people, and that community outrage would, at very least, see to it that the little old lady was properly cared for in hospital and replacement money donated to her by people of all beliefs and none.


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Do you know who else doesn't forgive? Satan.

Chapter and verse, please?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:05:33 PM by Astreja »
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2013, 10:05:42 PM »

But, this is what we are talking about with the atheist's inconsistency with morals.

Atheists would say that it would be immoral to blow up somebody's house but it's OK to just sweep away a spider's home?

On what basis/standard is it OK to wipe away a spider's home but not a human being's home?

I took her outside. I needed to eat. And it wasn't her home, it was just webbing she strung around while crawling around inside my stove. Her home was over in the corner. But good job drawing attention from the fact that you were wrong about the strength thingy. You successfully diverted us away from that and we'll forget all about it. You're amazing!
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2013, 10:09:31 PM »
So basically, you have no beliefs or thoughts about beliefs?

This has nothing to do with anything I've ever said.


Quote
And I should become atheist, why? To have no beliefs?

There is one, and only one reason to become an atheist.  It has nothing to do with the Big Bang theory.  It has nothing to do with the origin of life.  It has nothing to do with law and order.


The one and only reason to be an atheist is because of a lack of evidence for god-beings.  Without evidence, there is no reason to assume it exists.

It's the same for the tooth fairy.  Why do I not believe?  Because of lack of evidence.

It's the same for Santa Claus.  Why do I not believe?  Because of lack of evidence.

It's the same for unicorns.  Why do I not believe?  Because of lack of evidence.

It's the same for Jedi.  Why do I not believe?  Because of lack of evidence.


If we had evidence for those things... if we had little winged people that exchanged money for teeth... if we had flying Reindeer... if we had horses with horns on their foreheads, and they had magical powers... if people could use the force... then we would be thinking very different things.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2013, 10:10:52 PM »

 Lamps emits light.  We don't.

I just couldn't resist

Go on up you baldhead.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2013, 10:37:43 PM »
Devil's advocate question:

Why is it bad to harm somebody? If I thought it was good to harm somebody, why would I be wrong?

Because taking pleasure from harming others is a maladaptive behavior in a social species like humans. It can be beneficial for the abuser / criminal in the short term, but the pain and loss it causes others provokes defensive behavior. Thus, prisons and (ideally) rehabilitation.

That's a practical answer, wright, but it doesn't really answer MM's question.  Why is maladaptive behaviour wrong?  Because it harms?  But harming being wrong is what you're arguing to justify in the first place, so that reasoning is circular.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online wright

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2013, 12:02:33 AM »
That's a practical answer, wright, but it doesn't really answer MM's question.  Why is maladaptive behaviour wrong?  Because it harms?  But harming being wrong is what you're arguing to justify in the first place, so that reasoning is circular.

D' oh! Thanks, Azdgari. Logic is a skill I'm trying to improve.


Devil's advocate question:

Why is it bad to harm somebody? If I thought it was good to harm somebody, why would I be wrong?

Because human beings don't exist in a social vacuum. The benefits of cooperation and mutual trust are widely recognized as more beneficial than harming other people (at least within one's identified group). Harmful behavior that's brought to the group's (societies') attention usually results in some form of censure, as things like theft, murder and rape are bad for the individuals affected and likely for the group as a whole.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius