Author Topic: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist  (Read 7840 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #203 on: February 19, 2014, 11:06:55 AM »
Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist

Every thing we learn as a human being - from birth to death - has a teacher.
I am an Engineer, Politician, Nurse, Christian, Muslim Hindu, Buddhist because I was taught.
Atheism lacks the tutor.
For atheism to produce good atheists it has to have a "good" teacher.

So what you are saying is that every single skill and piece of knowledge there is, was originally taught to one human by a non-human?  That every "new" piece of knowledge is specifically imparted to a selected human by this other non-human teacher?

Sounds fascinating, but do you have a single shred of evidence for it?
Birth means we are born blank. We are taught by the human who gave us birth.

So how did the human who gave us birth learn their skills?  Now read what I said again.  Unless you are positing an infinite regress, every new piece of knowledge must come from a non-human source.

Come on Skep - don't leave me hanging.  Follow your ramblings through.

If all humans are taught there knowledge from the humans before them, how does new knowledge enter the system?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #204 on: February 21, 2014, 12:42:47 AM »
Never said I wasn't an idiot, actually many times in the past I have actually stated I am idiot after all I converse with people like you.

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #205 on: February 21, 2014, 12:54:15 AM »
Never said I wasn't an idiot, actually many times in the past I have actually stated I am idiot after all I converse with people like you.

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You know what the say about the company you keep.


You end up going postal.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline CutePuppy

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #206 on: March 01, 2014, 09:05:03 PM »
Late to the party, as usual.

Double P,

It is not a tiny little problem. It is a huge "barbed wire layed across the track" problem.

If it can't explain why genes are the way they are and how the first gene got its information, then it's not very good. A theory without a beginning is not a very good theory. I can't put all my eggs into the basket of "we don't know how it began."

Sure you can. Especially if nobody really knows/can show how it really began.

I have a question for you that concerns the initial topic of this thread and wrt your beliefs in "objective/absolute morality": would you mind telling me the origin of that? And just so you know, I'm not interested in superficial/hollow/non informative answers like "your god" and all other answers that are no more logical than "they just exist".
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:30:14 PM by CutePuppy »

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #207 on: March 01, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »
Late to the party, as usual.

Double P,

It is not a tiny little problem. It is a huge "barbed wire layed across the track" problem.

If it can't explain why genes are the way they are and how the first gene got its information, then it's not very good. A theory without a beginning is not a very good theory. I can't put all my eggs into the basket of "we don't know how it began."

Sure you can. Especially if nobody really knows/can show how it really began.

I have a question for you that concerns the initial topic of this thread and wrt your beliefs in "objective/absolute morality": would you mind telling me the origin of that? And just so you know, I'm not interested in superficial/hollow/non informative answers like "your god" and all other answers that are no more logical than "they just exist".

The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us. Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down. Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place. This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.

Some rapists claim they were born with a feeling to rape and they can't help it. People who engage in incest claim this too. So do pedophiles. And more recently, this is what homosexuals claim as well. Yet, we are slowly allowing the homosexuals to engage i their behavior freely instead of stopping them like we do rapists, pedophiles, and incest people. Pretty soon, we will have rapists, pedophiles, and incesters demanding equal rights because they were "born with it." But the truth is, it's all sin and we recognize it deep down. Otherwise, we would allow everything.

The truth of the matter is that if a pedophile or homosexual is "born with it" then how can we justify sending a pedophile to jail and not a homosexual? Pedophiles claim they are just as attracted to little kids as straight people are to women or homosexuals are to men. Yet, we punish them for just following their urges.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 10:41:53 PM by skeptic54768 »
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #208 on: March 01, 2014, 11:29:01 PM »
Fun stuff...A chimp's thoughts....

If there is no such thing as a good atheist, that is sad news for the planet Earth. Almost every living being on the planet that has ever lived since the first bacteria has been atheist. The chimp feeding the tiger is an atheist and he would be very upset if he thought he was not good. A dog is an atheist and a cat is an atheist and they don't like to be called "bad". Who were these upstart humans who recently grew in numbers to pollute the planet and who called everyone else "no good" except themselves? They were called believers but they didn't believe in anything except themselves. They called themselves "god" but pretended they were talking about someone else who doesn't exist. When they called themselves "god", they also pretended to know everything like this fictional figure "god" was supposed to do. It is lucky for us that those humans were so stupid and went extinct. Diary entry year 5........
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #209 on: March 02, 2014, 12:27:01 AM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us. Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down. Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place. This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.

That "objective standard" line is typically said by someone that thinks that a god-being agrees with their ideas.  Funny how that works.


Quote
Some rapists claim they were born with a feeling to rape and they can't help it. People who engage in incest claim this too. So do pedophiles. And more recently, this is what homosexuals claim as well. Yet, we are slowly allowing the homosexuals to engage i their behavior freely instead of stopping them like we do rapists, pedophiles, and incest people. Pretty soon, we will have rapists, pedophiles, and incesters demanding equal rights because they were "born with it." But the truth is, it's all sin and we recognize it deep down. Otherwise, we would allow everything.

The truth of the matter is that if a pedophile or homosexual is "born with it" then how can we justify sending a pedophile to jail and not a homosexual? Pedophiles claim they are just as attracted to little kids as straight people are to women or homosexuals are to men. Yet, we punish them for just following their urges.

With homosexuals, we are dealing with consenting adults.  Children are neither consenting, nor adults.  Likewise, rape, by definition, does not involve consent.  That is the difference.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #210 on: March 02, 2014, 12:29:45 AM »
With homosexuals, we are dealing with consenting adults.  Children are neither consenting, nor adults.  Likewise, rape, by definition, does not involve consent.  That is the difference.

Are you suggesting that they can just ignore their natural urges and NOT engage in pedophilia? Ironically, that's how we feel about homosexuality.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #211 on: March 02, 2014, 12:42:41 AM »
I have personally witnessed ghosts and supernatural activity. It's why I can not take atheism seriously anymore. I have seen the supernatural.

This is another perfect example of why reality experience is defined by subjectivity. In my reality experience, ghosts are real because I have seen them with my eyes. In your reality experience, ghosts are not real because you have never seen them.

But it is very wrong to think that they don't exist just because you personally have not seen them. It's the equivalent of someone saying, "Love does not exist because I never loved anyone."

You mean "experience" not "reality".

Ghosts and supernatural experiences do not prove Christianity, they only prove ghosts and supernatural experiences. In Christianity there was originally no soul without a body. Paul believed only in the resurrection of the body. As it spread, Christianity absorbed all kinds of religious influences which the writers of the bible did not fully understand. They produced one of the most immoral texts ever written without knowing why it is immoral.

Btw, Energy and information are interchangeable which is why energy from the sun and Earth does power the creation of genetic information which leads to humans. It does not contradict the law of thermodynamics at large scales which is where the law of thermodynamics always applies. Think of it this way. The whole of the sun has to die to produce puny little humans.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:01:24 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #212 on: March 02, 2014, 12:47:46 AM »
Are you suggesting that they can just ignore their natural urges and NOT engage in pedophilia? Ironically, that's how we feel about homosexuality.

Again, the keyword here is consenting adults.  Those who engage in homosexual acts harms no one--provided that all parties involved are mutual, consenting adults.  Those who engage in pedophilia are harming kids.  By definition, "consenting" does not enter the picture here, and "adults" does not apply to all parties.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #213 on: March 02, 2014, 02:46:28 AM »
Are you suggesting that they can just ignore their natural urges and NOT engage in pedophilia? Ironically, that's how we feel about homosexuality.

Again, the keyword here is consenting adults.  Those who engage in homosexual acts harms no one--provided that all parties involved are mutual, consenting adults.  Those who engage in pedophilia are harming kids.  By definition, "consenting" does not enter the picture here, and "adults" does not apply to all parties.

I was looking for a yes or no answer to my question, please.

While these are good thoughts for starters, I don't want to move in this direction yet.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #214 on: March 02, 2014, 02:50:19 AM »
I have personally witnessed ghosts and supernatural activity. It's why I can not take atheism seriously anymore. I have seen the supernatural.

This is another perfect example of why reality experience is defined by subjectivity. In my reality experience, ghosts are real because I have seen them with my eyes. In your reality experience, ghosts are not real because you have never seen them.

But it is very wrong to think that they don't exist just because you personally have not seen them. It's the equivalent of someone saying, "Love does not exist because I never loved anyone."

You mean "experience" not "reality".

Ghosts and supernatural experiences do not prove Christianity, they only prove ghosts and supernatural experiences. In Christianity there was originally no soul without a body. Paul believed only in the resurrection of the body. As it spread, Christianity absorbed all kinds of religious influences which the writers of the bible did not fully understand. They produced one of the most immoral texts ever written without knowing why it is immoral.

Btw, Energy and information are interchangeable which is why energy from the sun and Earth does power the creation of genetic information which leads to humans. It does not contradict the law of thermodynamics at large scales which is where the law of thermodynamics always applies. Think of it this way. The whole of the sun has to die to produce puny little humans.

It does contradict thermodynamics. papers have been written on the subject.

Here is a statement. Label it either true or false:

The first living cells ("billions" of years ago)contained all the DNA/information needed to make a human.
If true, why were they not humans?
If false, from where did the information come?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #215 on: March 02, 2014, 04:37:49 AM »
I was looking for a yes or no answer to my question, please.

While these are good thoughts for starters, I don't want to move in this direction yet.

Pedophiles shouldn't act their urges on children, if that's what you're asking.  I really don't know what would be the "best" way to deal with them, or "their natural urges", but it's certainly not by comparing them to homosexuals.

I find it curious that you're loathe to discuss the "consenting adults" aspect of it.  Why?  Seems to me that's an important concept to this discussion.
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Offline CutePuppy

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #216 on: March 02, 2014, 05:00:01 AM »
Late to the party, as usual.

Double P,

It is not a tiny little problem. It is a huge "barbed wire layed across the track" problem.

If it can't explain why genes are the way they are and how the first gene got its information, then it's not very good. A theory without a beginning is not a very good theory. I can't put all my eggs into the basket of "we don't know how it began."

Sure you can. Especially if nobody really knows/can show how it really began.

I have a question for you that concerns the initial topic of this thread and wrt your beliefs in "objective/absolute morality": would you mind telling me the origin of that? And just so you know, I'm not interested in superficial/hollow/non informative answers like "your god" and all other answers that are no more logical than "they just exist".

The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us.

No, I'm not talking about us. I'm talking about the origin of objective morality: how did your god arrive at this specific set of morals which he considers "objective morality"? Where's the logical basis of consider x is wrong, but y is right?

Quote
Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down.

I consider rape wrong based on (to me) logical reasons and my feelings are based on that. I sincerely doubt that "rape is wrong" is a piece of "knowledge" that I already had since my birth. In that same sense, by the way, I consider genocide wrong. Christians obviously disagree with that, since they worship a god that's claimed in their own book to have caused genocide at least twice.

Quote
Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place. This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.

Well, that's what I want to know from you: by what basis do you claim that your standard is better than others? Because the god you believe in said so? How is that different from other people following a different "objective morality" because it's from the god they believe (different from the one you believe)? You're doing it by proxy (through your god beliefs), but ultimately you're the one deciding that "this set of morals and ethics makes up the objective morality that everyone has to live by". You claim they come from the one true god, but ultimately you have to be the one to decide that 1. your specific version of a god is the real version of the right god and 2. their sense of morality is the objective morality everyone has to live by. It's all you because they're merely god beliefs that any random person can have about a different god and a different set of morals/ethics that they claim to be objectively moral.

So what I really want to know is: since the acceptance of gods and their specific versions of objective morality is completely subjective (i.e. this is what you feel, but there's no objective measurement to confirm that gods are real, let alone a specific version of a god), why should anyone put your subjective basis/beliefs of what objective morality is over other sets of morals?

Quote
The truth of the matter is that if a pedophile or homosexual is "born with it" then how can we justify sending a pedophile to jail and not a homosexual? Pedophiles claim they are just as attracted to little kids as straight people are to women or homosexuals are to men. Yet, we punish them for just following their urges.

Because acting out on those urges is harmful to society. In what sense are people engaged in homosexuality worth jailing? I don't think homosexuality is wrong at all.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 07:00:36 AM by CutePuppy »

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #217 on: March 02, 2014, 10:10:57 PM »

It (the evolution of the genetic material for humans) does contradict thermodynamics. papers have been written on the subject.

Here is a statement. Label it either true or false:

The first living cells ("billions" of years ago)contained all the DNA/information needed to make a human.
If true, why were they not humans?
If false, from where did the information come?

False.

The first living cells only contained the DNA for those cells. New DNA is always made from chemicals taken in from the environment. The energy source for the chemical reactions is the sun and Earth. The chemical reactions make mistakes. The non harmful mistakes are not killed off so useful DNA accumulates and evolution takes place.

(Energy and information are interchangeable. That is why heat comes out of your computer when you delete information. You use the energy of your fingers to type information into the computer.)

You said before that you don't believe in science because science changes all the time. So why would you take two sciences and say that evolution contradicts a law of thermodynamics? You need to consider what is causing you to see only what you want to see.

The idea that evolution contradicts a law of thermodynamics is one of those false assumptions like a flat Earth which have been proved wrong. Why would you believe some outdated science which has been proved wrong?

It is good that you are beginning to accept and trust science in your arguments, even if you are using outdated examples from looney websites.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2014, 10:26:15 AM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us.

What about the people who worship the wrong god? Or the people that worship no god.
How can we deny that god a exists but still not rape?
Is it logical to conclude that isn't necessary to have a knowledge of god in order to have a knowledge of good?

Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down. Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place. This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.

Sorry but that's just nonsense.
Would everyone try to stop a rape? What about the rapist. Or his co-conspirators who are waiting their turn?

Is there a morality of "fun to rape"? When your rapist is imprisoned and his larger more violent cell-mate cuddles up to him in the night will he maintain his "fun to rape" morality or is what you're describing just a lack of empathy and not morality at all?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2014, 10:33:13 AM »
But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place.

Well, unless you're omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent.  Apparently if you have those traits, you wouldn't bother stopping a rape that was taking place.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #220 on: March 03, 2014, 10:37:22 AM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us.

If that were true, everyone would have identical morals, yes?  Yet when we go around from culture to culture, we do not find identical morals.  We find some basic similarities and huge differences.  Far from what we would expect if we all had a set of built-in divine morals.  So, this idea fails.

Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down.

This is not true.  And it is also certainly not true that we all even define rape the same way.  For a long time in the US it was deemed that a man by definition could not rape his wife because as his wife, he had complete right to do "whatever" to her whenever he wanted, whether she wanted to or not.[1]

In other cultures they are even worse.  And if you take the bible as your guide, rape is fine and dandy, so long as the rapist married the woman he raped.

Among those of us who do think rape is wrong, you must ask why we think that.  Your thoughts on the matter are rather shallow.

This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape."

Yes, we do.  So what?  You have yet to demonstrate that you even understand what morals are.  Morals are rules and constraints on individual actions that allow and promote social behavior.  You cannot have a social group without them.  People who cheat and exploit the rules are called immoral or sometimes just "assholes".

Sexual assault is inherently anti-social behavior and serves to undermine group.

If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.

I don't have to have an objective standard.  You are trying to impose a false limitation.  I need only two things - a reasonable justification and social consensus. 

If you want a rapey culture, that may be fine.  Let's face it, reproduction in nature is often what humans would consider rape.  But you need to understand that at some point you or someone you care about will be raped.  With that understanding, most people hop off the rape bandwagon.  Most morals are based on the idea of reciprocity. 


The rest of what you wrote was incredibly stupid and not worth my effort to contradict, since you won't actually read it anyway.  Were I in charge of the world, you would be neutered and kept in a cage.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #221 on: March 03, 2014, 10:49:42 AM »
For a long time in the US it was deemed that a man by definition could not rape his wife because as his wife, he had complete right to do "whatever" to her whenever he wanted, whether she wanted to or not.[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape

it was the same in the UK until 1991[2]
Quote from: Keith LJ
It may be taken that the proposition was generally regarded as an accurate statement of the common law of England. The common law is, however, capable of evolving in the light of changing social, economic and cultural developments. Hale's proposition reflected the state of affairs in these respects at the time it was enunciated. Since then the status of women, and particularly of married women, has changed out of all recognition in various ways which are very familiar and upon which it is unnecessary to go into detail. Apart from property matters and the availability of matrimonial remedies, one of the most important changes is that marriage is in modern times regarded as a partnership of equals, and no longer one in which the wife must be the subservient chattel of the husband. Hale's proposition involves that by marriage a wife gives her irrevocable consent to sexual intercourse with her husband under all circumstances and irrespective of the state of her health or how she happens to be feeling at the time. In modern times any reasonable person must regard that conception as quite unacceptable

Bolded the important part. A 500 year old law changed to fit modern society.

Common Law 1 - Bible 0?
 2. R v R [1991] 3 WLR 767 HoL

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #222 on: March 03, 2014, 11:21:43 AM »
Shep,

If you are worried how a chaotic universe can produce ordered structures, like snowflakes and humans, an easy way to understand it is that the ordered structures are always on a smaller scale than the process which produces them. Humans and life on Earth have only an very very very small fraction of the energy of the sun, for example. In total chaos always increases.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:24:15 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #223 on: March 03, 2014, 03:57:54 PM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us. Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down.
You forgot a word there.  "Everyone now knows" - which assumes that everyone does know, of course, an unverifiable and unwarranted assumption (for example, before I watched a documentary on it, I would have said that nobody would kidnap a woman and force them to become a bride of their kidnapper, yet there are places even today where this is not only legal, it's customary).  But leaving that aside, the fact remains that the view of rape being a moral wrong is only a relatively recent moral innovation.  Your idea that "everyone knows rape is wrong" is not supported by history; one of the time-honored perks for soldiers was that they could have their way with women in places they conquered, just to give one of a litany of awful examples.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place.
You just contradicted yourself here.  If some people can ignore this (imaginary) moral imperative to commit rape, then not everyone would try to stop a rape if they saw one taking place, now would they?  If nothing else, the people who would commit it in the first place wouldn't see any reason to stop someone else from doing it.  In short, there is no universal moral imperative against rape, except in your own mind because you think your god created one.  You're mistaking the moral rules of the culture you grew up in for some kind of universal morality, the same way people have done since the beginning of recorded history and probably before too.

Quote from: skeptic54768
This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.
Not at all.  People are perfectly capable of judging others by the subjective standards that they hold within themselves.  They don't need an objective standard to do that, and never have.  I'm sorry that you don't understand that, but it's true and your belief otherwise won't change it.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Some rapists claim they were born with a feeling to rape and they can't help it. People who engage in incest claim this too. So do pedophiles. And more recently, this is what homosexuals claim as well. Yet, we are slowly allowing the homosexuals to engage i their behavior freely instead of stopping them like we do rapists, pedophiles, and incest people. Pretty soon, we will have rapists, pedophiles, and incesters demanding equal rights because they were "born with it." But the truth is, it's all sin and we recognize it deep down. Otherwise, we would allow everything.
First off, this is the slippery slope fallacy.  You're declaring that if we allow one thing, we'll eventually allow all these other things and since those other things are bad, we shouldn't allow the first thing even though it has nothing to do with those other things.  Secondly, just what does homosexuality - especially consensual homosexuality - have to do with rape, incest, pedophilia, or other such things?  Aside from being on a list of restrictions attributed to a god by a tribal people, not a thing - and that leaves aside the fact that rape, for example, was considered to be a far less severe 'sin' than homosexuality (male homosexuals were put to death, but male rapists were simply made to marry the woman they raped - in effect, 'punishing' the rapist by giving him the opportunity to have lots more sex with his victim), while pedophilia isn't even in the Bible you supposedly follow!

So let's not have this ridiculous statement "we recognize things as sin otherwise we'd allow everything".  The fact is that people have allowed plenty of things in the past that we now consider horrible and vicious crimes, deserving of severe punishment.  Some of those things, like slavery, were explicitly stated to be okay by the Bible.  In other words, what a culture considers wrong (or sinful) is dependent on the culture's morality, not on some divine edict from above.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The truth of the matter is that if a pedophile or homosexual is "born with it" then how can we justify sending a pedophile to jail and not a homosexual? Pedophiles claim they are just as attracted to little kids as straight people are to women or homosexuals are to men. Yet, we punish them for just following their urges.
This attempt by you to claim that it's all about urges is pathetic, skeptic.  No, the actual truth of the matter is that as long as sexual behavior is consensual and between relative equals, there's nothing particularly wrong with it.  Pedophilia violates that because there's no way for an adult and a child to be relatively equal; rape violates that because it isn't consensual.  So let's not have this stupid "urges" argument again.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #224 on: March 03, 2014, 04:37:24 PM »
skeptic54768 -

It's been brought up a few times in this thread and in past threads involving you, but I think it would be rather beneficial to everyone (that includes you) if you would at least acknowledge that you understand the concept of 'consent'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #225 on: March 04, 2014, 03:18:21 PM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us.

If that were true, everyone would have identical morals, yes?  Yet when we go around from culture to culture, we do not find identical morals.  We find some basic similarities and huge differences.  Far from what we would expect if we all had a set of built-in divine morals.  So, this idea fails.

Consciousness is not empowered. It is overpowered by the mind and its desires. People are not following the teachings of their moral consciously aware teacher. If they did it would empower their consciousness and they would not give into the base nature of mind and its negative desires through the abuse of others. It would seek to elevate another through conscious awareness. That way we can have more peace and harmony in the world if people listen to the Theists who are more consciously aware of the nature of the mind.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #226 on: March 04, 2014, 03:32:41 PM »
skeptic54768 -

It's been brought up a few times in this thread and in past threads involving you, but I think it would be rather beneficial to everyone (that includes you) if you would at least acknowledge that you understand the concept of 'consent'.
What is that.. a form of adult Grooming or coercion?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #227 on: March 04, 2014, 03:40:51 PM »
skeptic54768 -

It's been brought up a few times in this thread and in past threads involving you, but I think it would be rather beneficial to everyone (that includes you) if you would at least acknowledge that you understand the concept of 'consent'.
What is that.. a form of adult Grooming or coercion?

What is it with wooists and their habit of capitalizing words at random?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #228 on: March 04, 2014, 03:44:16 PM »
What is it with wooists and their habit of capitalizing words at random?

What about those who capitalize every word and fail to use punctuation? Might as well be trying to read the works of José Saramago[1].
 1. Portuguese writer who won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1998, for those who don't know. His works lack proper punctuation (and therefore grammar) and are nigh-impossible to read and enjoy.
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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #229 on: March 04, 2014, 03:45:46 PM »
What is that.. a form of adult Grooming or coercion?

What is it with wooists and their habit of capitalizing words at random?

Ha!  Good catch, I don't know if that was random, "grooming" starts with a g, so it was probably a force of habit lol.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #230 on: March 05, 2014, 01:21:01 AM »
The objective morality is based on the inner conscience that God has given us. Everyone knows that rape is wrong deep down.
You forgot a word there.  "Everyone now knows" - which assumes that everyone does know, of course, an unverifiable and unwarranted assumption (for example, before I watched a documentary on it, I would have said that nobody would kidnap a woman and force them to become a bride of their kidnapper, yet there are places even today where this is not only legal, it's customary).  But leaving that aside, the fact remains that the view of rape being a moral wrong is only a relatively recent moral innovation.  Your idea that "everyone knows rape is wrong" is not supported by history; one of the time-honored perks for soldiers was that they could have their way with women in places they conquered, just to give one of a litany of awful examples.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Some people ignore it and go out and rape. But, everyone would try and stop a rape if they saw one taking place.
You just contradicted yourself here.  If some people can ignore this (imaginary) moral imperative to commit rape, then not everyone would try to stop a rape if they saw one taking place, now would they?  If nothing else, the people who would commit it in the first place wouldn't see any reason to stop someone else from doing it.  In short, there is no universal moral imperative against rape, except in your own mind because you think your god created one.  You're mistaking the moral rules of the culture you grew up in for some kind of universal morality, the same way people have done since the beginning of recorded history and probably before too.

Quote from: skeptic54768
This means that we place our morality of "stopping rape" over someone's morality of "fun to rape." If you claim your morality is superior to someone's then you must have an objective standard by which to judge your morals as better.
Not at all.  People are perfectly capable of judging others by the subjective standards that they hold within themselves.  They don't need an objective standard to do that, and never have.  I'm sorry that you don't understand that, but it's true and your belief otherwise won't change it.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Some rapists claim they were born with a feeling to rape and they can't help it. People who engage in incest claim this too. So do pedophiles. And more recently, this is what homosexuals claim as well. Yet, we are slowly allowing the homosexuals to engage i their behavior freely instead of stopping them like we do rapists, pedophiles, and incest people. Pretty soon, we will have rapists, pedophiles, and incesters demanding equal rights because they were "born with it." But the truth is, it's all sin and we recognize it deep down. Otherwise, we would allow everything.
First off, this is the slippery slope fallacy.  You're declaring that if we allow one thing, we'll eventually allow all these other things and since those other things are bad, we shouldn't allow the first thing even though it has nothing to do with those other things.  Secondly, just what does homosexuality - especially consensual homosexuality - have to do with rape, incest, pedophilia, or other such things?  Aside from being on a list of restrictions attributed to a god by a tribal people, not a thing - and that leaves aside the fact that rape, for example, was considered to be a far less severe 'sin' than homosexuality (male homosexuals were put to death, but male rapists were simply made to marry the woman they raped - in effect, 'punishing' the rapist by giving him the opportunity to have lots more sex with his victim), while pedophilia isn't even in the Bible you supposedly follow!

So let's not have this ridiculous statement "we recognize things as sin otherwise we'd allow everything".  The fact is that people have allowed plenty of things in the past that we now consider horrible and vicious crimes, deserving of severe punishment.  Some of those things, like slavery, were explicitly stated to be okay by the Bible.  In other words, what a culture considers wrong (or sinful) is dependent on the culture's morality, not on some divine edict from above.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The truth of the matter is that if a pedophile or homosexual is "born with it" then how can we justify sending a pedophile to jail and not a homosexual? Pedophiles claim they are just as attracted to little kids as straight people are to women or homosexuals are to men. Yet, we punish them for just following their urges.
This attempt by you to claim that it's all about urges is pathetic, skeptic.  No, the actual truth of the matter is that as long as sexual behavior is consensual and between relative equals, there's nothing particularly wrong with it.  Pedophilia violates that because there's no way for an adult and a child to be relatively equal; rape violates that because it isn't consensual.  So let's not have this stupid "urges" argument again.

The main point you are missing is: "Is rape wrong in the same way 1+1=3 is wrong?"

If morality is just a product of the times, then you are forced to admit that rape used to be fine, but now it's not. To condemn the people of the past is to judge them by using today's morality and that simply doesn't seem fair. Why not judge them on the old morality? It was perfectly fine.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why there is No such thing as a good atheist
« Reply #231 on: March 05, 2014, 01:25:25 AM »
Why did you quote jaime's entire post if you weren't going to read, let alone address, anything he said in it?
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