Author Topic: Do you trust clergy?  (Read 893 times)

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Offline Chronos

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Do you trust clergy?
« on: December 19, 2013, 12:10:21 PM »
I think Pope Frank knows that millennials are key to the survival of his church ...

Honesty and Ethics Rating of Clergy Slides to New Low

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WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans' rating of the honesty and ethics of the clergy has fallen to 47%, the first time this rating has dropped below 50% since Gallup first asked about the clergy in 1977. Clergy have historically ranked near the top among professions on this measure, hitting a high rating of 67% in 1985.





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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 12:33:35 PM »
A quote from Heinlein that may explain people's reasoning:
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The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it. -  Robert Heinlein
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 01:03:53 PM »
I wonder what this is trusting the clergy about or to do? I mean I ablsolutely trust clergy to tell me myths as though they were true, claim that they have hard the voice of an imaginary friend,

For anything else - well I'd trust them like any other person I suppose.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online One Above All

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 01:10:19 PM »
I trust the ones I've met. Trust has to be earned.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline hickdive

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 01:13:13 PM »
I avoid them wherever possible but on the odd occasion that hasn't been possible my personal experience leads me not to trust them in the slightest.

Broader knowledge of their behaviour, such as endemic child abuse in the RCC, through the media doesn't alter my view.

At its most basic level whilst all theistic people know that their beliefs are nonsense, they just won't admit it, clergy are people who also know this and yet persist in attempting to lead others to believe and behave as if their chosen deity was real.
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 01:44:48 PM »
I honestly think that many well studied clergy people do not hold the very beliefs they promote. I would not be surprised if the Joel Olsteens of the world were in fact closeted agnostics.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 04:20:21 PM »
In the UK, I would trust most clergy. I have had little to do with them but those I have, have fallen into 4 camps:

1.   Intelligent but naïve.
2.   Average or lower intelligence.
3.   Obsessed and short tempered.
4.   See religion as “bells and smells”; likes classics, steam engines and cricket. A bit vague on biblical detail.

By and large, they are people who otherwise would not fit into society.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 04:37:01 PM »
In the UK, I would trust most clergy. I have had little to do with them but those I have, have fallen into 4 camps:

1.   Intelligent but naïve.
2.   Average or lower intelligence.
3.   Obsessed and short tempered.
4.   See religion as “bells and smells”; likes classics, steam engines and cricket. A bit vague on biblical detail.

By and large, they are people who otherwise would not fit into society.

Actually, it seems to me you've just described quite a large portion of society.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 05:02:48 PM »
At first sight, it does seem that way, doesn’t it? But what I have described is quite a small part of the cross-section of those who make up society. All of the above are a little “unworldly” for one reason or another and for that one reason or another, not quite the same as the rest of us.

I suppose you could say, “Why should they be like the rest of us?” and that is a good question[1].I don’t expect police officers, doctors, dustbin men, thieves and publicans to be the same as me or my circle nor be 'average' but that is because the whole of society is the average, so there have to be different levels to create that average and the clergy, for me, are marked out.

They are selling snake-oil no matter how nice a person they might be and that takes a certain character especially if it is linked to high moral standards.
 1. mainly because it indicates that you agree that they are not
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 05:06:44 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 05:10:56 PM »
Practically everybody is selling snake-oil.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 01:19:42 AM »
Practically everybody is selling snake-oil.

what do you mean?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 01:46:25 AM »
Practically everybody is selling snake-oil.

what do you mean?

I'm being cycnical. It happens every Christmas. Millions of dollars being spend on crap we don't need because marketers tell us our lives aren't complete without it.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 08:17:04 AM »
ah.  thanks.   

I agree about marketers.  I think lawyers got a bad rap.  I have been grateful every time I have had the service of a lawyer.  When I have dealt with marketing people, however, I have never walked away grateful for the experience and mainly prefer they had drowned.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 08:46:21 AM »
I think that clergy are pretty much like folks in any other profession.  Some are fabulous, amazing people.  Some are folks just trying to get by.  Some are delusional.  Some are charlatans. 

Probably the clergy attracts more of the folks at the extreme ends of the spectrum.  I've known and worked with some amazing clergy.  One former colleague left the clergy to work with torture survivors.  After a decade or so, he went on to work with DNA evidence that exonerated incarcerated folks.  He's a superhero in my book.  Another friend is a minister who really just exudes that "inner peace" and "strength" stuff.  When there were a few acts of violence against transgendered folks in my neighborhood, he was up front at the press conference, arm and arm with drag queens and prostitutes, professing that everyone needs to enjoy freedom and safety in our community.  He lit my daughter's candle at a candlelight vigil against military action in Syria a while back. He oversees food drives for needy families, and hits me up periodically for fundraisers to get low income kids scholarships to a local preschool that my daughter attended.  I admire and trust him.

Then sometimes I turn on Sunday morning preachers, while my daughter is still in bed.  God's timer is ticking away, and He has promised to give a 10-fold return to anyone who pledges $100 or more within the next 15 minutes.  My heart breaks for the folks who dig deep into their pockets to try and win god's grace at the hands of these charlatans.   

Then there are the Jim Haggards of the world, who are wounded, damaged human beings.  They lust for power, they lust for male escorts and cocaine, and the promise eternal hellfire to anyone who lusts for the diversions they regularly engage in.  Until they are caught.  Then, well, we know the routine.  We are all sinners.

Joel Osteen?  Handsome.  Charismatic.  He oozes joy and optimism.  Sometimes I find myself actually liking the guy.  Until I listen carefully.  He worships a god who has hidden the opportunity for material wealth along the life-path of every human being.   The faithful are successful on the Easter egg hunt for material wealth.  And the impoverished?  All they have to do is be just a little bit more faithful, and they will find their fortunes too.  The underlying message, of course, is that they poor are only poor because of their lack of faith.  So, in a way, it is just their own fault.  Which really pisses me off.   But I think he really believes what he preaches. I mean, it sure worked out for him.  Why wouldn't it work for everybody else? 

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 01:08:54 PM »
not at all.

I think a great number of the Clergy do not believe, but still sell. That makes them highly suspicious to me.

I also do not trust politicians and police at an extremely high clip.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 06:54:13 PM »
not at all.

I think a great number of the Clergy do not believe, but still sell

I disagree, because, where the evidence? I run into low level clergy all the time.

Now when you are talking about a good marketer, a TV preacher or the like yeah..... the selling is more important than the product is just a little indication
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Do you trust clergy?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »
I disagree, because, where the evidence? I run into low level clergy all the time.

Now when you are talking about a good marketer, a TV preacher or the like yeah..... the selling is more important than the product is just a little indication
I believe they do not believe because I believe they actually read their bible and know what is in there, and I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they can see major, fatal flaws in their theology, and I am also giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have reasoning capabilities.

I very well may be wrong. But the clergy project seems to lend credibility to to my suspicions.