Why doesn't God heal people without limbs... [#2785]

[naemhni]

Hi there,
I am curious if you / your group has hear of Nick Vujicic?

lifewithoutlimbs.tv

-[name removed]

[jdawg70]

I am curious if you've ever heard of Madeline Kara Neumann.

[pyro4jc999]

I am aware of Madeline Neumann, and I am curious if Madeline's parents have ever heard of James 3:17 - Wisdom from above is reasonable

[Betelnut]

I am aware of Madeline Neumann, and I am curious if Madeline's parents have ever heard of James 3:17 - Wisdom from above is reasonable

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

That quote doesn't say to kill your child.

[jdawg70]

I am aware of Madeline Neumann, and I am curious if Madeline's parents have ever heard of James 3:17 - Wisdom from above is reasonable

Let's say not.  Let's say they were biblically confused.

I would assume that an omnipotent, omniscient entity would be aware of that.  I would also assume that this omnipotent, omniscient entity would be aware of their parent's cries for help.

Assuming that this omnipotent, omniscient entity were also omni-benevolent (or, at the very least, a decent fellow), what course of action would you expect this omnipotent, omniscient entity to engage in:
1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child.
2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).
3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

[Chronos]

Madeline's parents weren't True Believers^TM.

Madeline's parents should have Prayed Harder^TM.

Their god didn't intercede.

Their god forsook them.

Their omnipotent god planned Madeline's death.

Their god wanted Madeline in heaven to be one of His Chosen Angels^TM.



meh.

[Ataraxia]

Hi there,
I am curious if you / your group has hear of Nick Vujicic?

lifewithoutlimbs.tv

-[name removed]

Yes. What's your point? He has no limbs yet he's an evangelist, but he still has NO LIMBS. Really, is it your aim to square the WWGHA question by pointing to someone whose limbs haven't been healed by the god they preach about? Thanks for pointing out another example of the failing of this god.

[RED_ApeTHEIST]

I met Nick once. He spoke at my church[1]while I was working security. He seemed a very nice fellow, and his message about persevering through adversity is one that is still powerful, even if you remove all the godly bits.

His experiences aren't an answer to the question that this site is asking however. Firstly he's not an amputee. Secondly his experience is far from typical for folks born with non functional limbs. Thirdly, despite being a very "good christian" by most Christian's reckoning, he still hasn't been granted functioning limbs.

1.	I was a practicing born again christian for some time.

[Astreja]

Wisdom from above is reasonable people  pretending to speak for a god is just a bunch of empty excuses for their god's inaction.

Fixed that for you.

[shnozzola]

.....James 3:17 - Wisdom from above is reasonable

No - There is no wisdom from "above."

   These are writings from a collection of wise people a few thousand years ago that some parts of history has continued to hand down as from some sort of god, that version of a god mostly  dependent on which part of the world we live, and which people of power influenced the area's religion.  Sure, there is good wisdom involved in some of these religious writings, just as there are mistakes and contradictions because mankind and science were just starting to get our act together.

   It keeps getting handed down because there is enough wisdom written down - things like the beatitudes in the christian bible.  Since a god is involved, that belief part goes along because people are understandably frightened from the idea of crossing a god, and we've had it drummed into our brains as children, and it is tough to shake.  Any normal thinking human has moments of - hey, wait a minute - is this hogwash?

   Seriously, even if  there were some type of deity that has since moved on - like a computer programmer - the whole heaven and hell part, the 72 virgin part, the nirvana part, the reincarnation part, the eye of newt potion part -  [sigh] you just have to shake your head.  But what is good for society continues to be good for society, no matter what we believe.  But just take a minute and wonder what would happen if the outrageous amounts of money for golden cathedrals went towards curing cancer.

   And what is most important is that society shakes these fundamentalist ideas from all the religions that pit mankind against mankind.  To think that , say, places like the United States continue to go around the world flexing it's might to get what it needs, and somehow bases that on religion.  That is the danger - God Bless America, Brazil, Kenya - Allah Bless Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen -, Lord Buddha, Krishna, protect whoever, may Zeus protect whoever.   Gimme a break.

   Look at the problems between Israel and Palestine, and how much religious culture influences this never ending battle.  This one battle may end up being the spark that dooms mankind.  Just today, look at North Korea - they're not supposedly religious, but their young leader, Kim Jong Un, seems to be as nuts with power as most people, and sure the rest of the religious world gets behind their different gods feeling so higher and mightier than North Korea, while North Korea's repressed people don't get enough to eat. 

 Sorry, I got carried away.   

[pyro4jc999]

I am aware of Madeline Neumann, and I am curious if Madeline's parents have ever heard of James 3:17 - Wisdom from above is reasonable

Let's say not.  Let's say they were biblically confused.

I would assume that an omnipotent, omniscient entity would be aware of that.  I would also assume that this omnipotent, omniscient entity would be aware of their parent's cries for help.

Assuming that this omnipotent, omniscient entity were also omni-benevolent (or, at the very least, a decent fellow), what course of action would you expect this omnipotent, omniscient entity to engage in:
1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child.
2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).
3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child. 

I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).

Again I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise. 

3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

I don't believe He was silent but shouting - 'go bring your child to the doctor' - and in their own stubborn pride they refused.

But let me bring it back to my original topic - what do you think about someone like Nick - I know he is not an amputee but he is in a similar situation - no limbs.  God hasn't 'healed' him, if anyone should have the right to complain against a loving God for not healing them- he does - but instead He is filled with hope and attributes it to Jesus - see below.

http://www.charismanews.com/world/42113-evangelist-nick-vujicic-s-world-outreach-reaches-400-million

I don't have all the answers you may be looking for, but I would say that Nick's story is worth pondering - maybe even a sign to make you wonder...
-Trip

[Ambassador Pony]

Omnipotent deities can "try" and not succeed? Contradicts omnipotence. Just like free will contradicts omnipotence.

[jdawg70]

1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child. 

I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).

Again I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise. 

3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

I don't believe He was silent but shouting - 'go bring your child to the doctor' - and in their own stubborn pride they refused.

Ugh...seriously.

Alright, let's just go ahead and change this up a bit, so that maybe you can see what the major problem here is.

Let's say that I'm sitting in the room while Madeline is in a diabetic coma or something.  Her parents are sitting there, praying to god to spare their innocent 11-year old child.  Now, with cellphone in hand, and the number of a doctor who lives 3 blocks over in my contact list (who, for purposes of this discussion, is at home), I do the following:

1) I inform them that they should get to a hospital.  I let them know that, in all likelihood, she will need some medical attention in order to alleviate her suffering and possibly prevent her death.
2) I go over to the neighbors, who I think are sensible and reasonable people, and tell them that Madeleine's parents should really call a hospital.
3) I shout, over and over again, at Madeleine's parents to take her to a hospital.

Unfortunately, her parents are rather stubborn and slow-witted.  Several hours later, after dealing with diabetic ketoacidosis, the innocent 11-year old child dies.

How would you evaluate my behavior?  Did I behave in a morally acceptable way?

But let me bring it back to my original topic - what do you think about someone like Nick - I know he is not an amputee but he is in a similar situation - no limbs.  God hasn't 'healed' him, if anyone should have the right to complain against a loving God for not healing them- he does - but instead He is filled with hope and attributes it to Jesus - see below.

http://www.charismanews.com/world/42113-evangelist-nick-vujicic-s-world-outreach-reaches-400-million

I don't have all the answers you may be looking for, but I would say that Nick's story is worth pondering - maybe even a sign to make you wonder...
-Trip

I think that he has a lot of character, and is likely a very decent fellow who understands that it's possible to overcome many different types of very difficult obstacles in one's life.  Why he thinks god is involved in any way is a bit beyond me.  Why he thinks such an entity exists is beyond me.  Why he would choose to worship an entity that would allow an innocent 11-year old child to die because of her parent's stubbornness when it would presumably be in his power to prevent an innocent 11-year old child from dying is beyond me.

Do you understand the purpose of the question "why won't god heal amputees?"

[Ataraxia]

1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child. 

I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

Can't say I'm surprised here at his incompetence. This god has a pretty poor track record when it comes to getting his point across clearly and unambiguously to everyone.

2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).

Again I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

Eh? He tried healing through divine healing through sensible and reasonable people? WTF does that mean? Divine healing means god getting off his own backside and actually doing the healing himself. Are you saying he also tried that but failed that too? Try, try try. Jeez, for some all powerful being, he ain't half rubbish at it.

3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

I don't believe He was silent but shouting - 'go bring your child to the doctor' - and in their own stubborn pride they refused.

Again, he's just a piss poor communicator who can't get his point across, even when he's shouting. Is this some audible noise btw, you know, causing vibrations in the air which can be picked up by the ear, or is this some kind of hyperbolic, non-physical shouting which is unmistakable from someone's own thoughts?

So far, your responses are of a typical sycophant who never sees anything as gods fault, but blames humans for acting how god supposedly created them.

But let me bring it back to my original topic - what do you think about someone like Nick - I know he is not an amputee but he is in a similar situation - no limbs.  God hasn't 'healed' him, if anyone should have the right to complain against a loving God for not healing them- he does - but instead He is filled with hope and attributes it to Jesus - see below.

http://www.charismanews.com/world/42113-evangelist-nick-vujicic-s-world-outreach-reaches-400-million

I don't have all the answers you may be looking for, but I would say that Nick's story is worth pondering - maybe even a sign to make you wonder...
-Trip

I got bored a long time ago of pussy-footing around theists and holding back from what my initial thoughts were of their beliefs. I don't care if this bloke has no limbs, he's still a friggin' idiot. What else is there to ponder? He's convinced himself through whatever means that his god isn't a useless arse or that he isn't blasé about the health and well being of people suffering, and thinks he should tell other people about that and spread that word. He's a nuisance to society and hinderer of it functioning to its potential, that's what he is.

[Hatter23]

1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child. 

I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

Or, here's a thought, that good advice came from sensible and reasonable people who weren't using a bronze age book of mythology as their guide to solving real world problems, so why the need for this god character?

[median]

3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

So this is your God's MO eh? He just sits back with indifference and does nothing when small children are raped, molested, beaten, or murdered so that he can 'teach them a lesson'? You disgust me with these vile ideas. Religion truly is a psychological disorder - as you've completely disconnected yourself from reality in trade for superstitious fiction about invisible but 'loving' deities that do nothing. There is a better place for you ya know:

[pyro4jc999]

1) Informing her parents (through direct contact, divine revelation, or what-have-you) that they are doing it wrong, and advise them to call a hospital to save the life of the innocent 11-year old child. 

I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise.

2) Prevent the innocent 11-year old child from suffering and dying (through divine healing, sending a doctor over to the house unexpectedly, or what-have-you).

Again I would think He was trying to do that through sensible and reasonable people - and they ignored the advise. 

3) Remain silent and watch the innocent 11-year old child suffer and die, possibly to teach the parents a lesson (by allowing an innocent 11-year old child to suffer and die).

I don't believe He was silent but shouting - 'go bring your child to the doctor' - and in their own stubborn pride they refused.

Ugh...seriously.

Alright, let's just go ahead and change this up a bit, so that maybe you can see what the major problem here is.

Let's say that I'm sitting in the room while Madeline is in a diabetic coma or something.  Her parents are sitting there, praying to god to spare their innocent 11-year old child.  Now, with cellphone in hand, and the number of a doctor who lives 3 blocks over in my contact list (who, for purposes of this discussion, is at home), I do the following:

1) I inform them that they should get to a hospital.  I let them know that, in all likelihood, she will need some medical attention in order to alleviate her suffering and possibly prevent her death.
2) I go over to the neighbors, who I think are sensible and reasonable people, and tell them that Madeleine's parents should really call a hospital.
3) I shout, over and over again, at Madeleine's parents to take her to a hospital.

Unfortunately, her parents are rather stubborn and slow-witted.  Several hours later, after dealing with diabetic ketoacidosis, the innocent 11-year old child dies.

How would you evaluate my behavior?  Did I behave in a morally acceptable way?

But let me bring it back to my original topic - what do you think about someone like Nick - I know he is not an amputee but he is in a similar situation - no limbs.  God hasn't 'healed' him, if anyone should have the right to complain against a loving God for not healing them- he does - but instead He is filled with hope and attributes it to Jesus - see below.

http://www.charismanews.com/world/42113-evangelist-nick-vujicic-s-world-outreach-reaches-400-million

I don't have all the answers you may be looking for, but I would say that Nick's story is worth pondering - maybe even a sign to make you wonder...
-Trip

I think that he has a lot of character, and is likely a very decent fellow who understands that it's possible to overcome many different types of very difficult obstacles in one's life.  Why he thinks god is involved in any way is a bit beyond me.  Why he thinks such an entity exists is beyond me.  Why he would choose to worship an entity that would allow an innocent 11-year old child to die because of her parent's stubbornness when it would presumably be in his power to prevent an innocent 11-year old child from dying is beyond me.

Do you understand the purpose of the question "why won't god heal amputees?"

In the scenario - your behavior seems great - you are lovingly trying to help parents that are not making wise choices.  (not sure if I am missing something here...)

I would do the same thing (try to talk some sense into them) - and I would hope that the parents would not be stubborn and low witted. 

I think what you are trying to point out is - WHY did God still allow her to die if he is a good and loving God?

And what I am trying to say is because He gave is parents freewill (didn't make mankind as robots) - He allows us (to a certain extent) to make good / bad choices - for better or worse - even if it results in death.

But there is a day when we all must stand account for our actions - that is Judgement day.  The Bible talks about it. 

Let me ask you something - why did Jesus raise a little girl from the dead (Madeline's age)? (Its in Mark 5:37-43).

You may say - how can you validate that account ?  And that was 2000 years ago, what about today?

Well I bet you even if I were to raise someone from the dead through the power of God right in front of you - someone dead for 3 whole days - embalmed - with rigor mortis set in - someone already given a doctors death certificate - someone who has been in the morgue for days - you would STILL not believe in God (His love and power). 

I have found there is a miracle that can cause someone to believe but then there is an unbelief so strong that even if God were to raise someone from the dead right in front of them they would still not believe.

[jdawg70]

In the scenario - your behavior seems great - you are lovingly trying to help parents that are not making wise choices.  (not sure if I am missing something here...)

Ummm...I had every opportunity to save the girl's life, and instead of doing that, I passed the buck to the parents.  That you do not see the moral failing here is...disappointing.

You really don't see the moral failing there?  Seriously?

Sorry.  I'm just a little flabbergasted by that.

[Hatter23]

Well I bet you even if I were to raise someone from the dead through the power of God right in front of you - someone dead for 3 whole days - embalmed - with rigor mortis set in - someone already given a doctors death certificate - someone who has been in the morgue for days - you would STILL not believe in God (His love and power). 

I have found there is a miracle that can cause someone to believe but then there is an unbelief so strong that even if God were to raise someone from the dead right in front of them they would still not believe.

Sure. And your evidence for this conclusion is? Because we are skeptical of what was said in a book written before fact checking, the printing press, scientific method, and the knowledge of what that brain organ does?

[Astreja]

I think what you are trying to point out is - WHY did God still allow her to die if he is a good and loving God?

And what I am trying to say is because He gave is parents freewill (didn't make mankind as robots) - He allows us (to a certain extent) to make good / bad choices - for better or worse - even if it results in death.

But there is a day when we all must stand account for our actions - that is Judgement day.  The Bible talks about it.

Okay, Pyro, hold it right there.  Why does humanity's supposed "free will" end upon death, with most of them being condemned to hell?  I can understand that heaven is an invitation-only party in Christian mythology, but why the judgment and subsequent torture?  Why not let all the rejected people just wander off to make their own way in the universe?

Let me ask you something - why did Jesus raise a little girl from the dead (Madeline's age)? (Its in Mark 5:37-43).

No, let Me ask you something.  Are you serious?  Do you honestly believe that such a thing actually happened?  I don't.  I think the author of Mark just made it up.

Well I bet you even if I were to raise someone from the dead through the power of God right in front of you - someone dead for 3 whole days - embalmed - with rigor mortis set in - someone already given a doctors death certificate - someone who has been in the morgue for days - you would STILL not believe in God (His love and power). 

I have found there is a miracle that can cause someone to believe but then there is an unbelief so strong that even if God were to raise someone from the dead right in front of them they would still not believe.

Even if your assertion about our potential reaction was true, consider that the cause of the "miracle" may not be a god.  It could be some advanced cell-reconstruction technology wielded by a being who's just pretending to be divine.

And even if it were a god, what makes you think it's your god?  The whole resurrection scenario has one plothole so big that you can drive a semi trailer through it:

• If Jesus is God, and he died on the cross, how could it be a sacrifice if he was alive enough to bring himself back from the grave?
• If some other god actually did the resurrection, why do we never hear about him or her?

[Ivellios]

Let's say that I'm sitting in the room while Madeline is in a diabetic coma or something.  Her parents are sitting there, praying to god to spare their innocent 11-year old child.  Now, with cellphone in hand, and the number of a doctor who lives 3 blocks over in my contact list (who, for purposes of this discussion, is at home), I do the following:

1) I inform them that they should get to a hospital.  I let them know that, in all likelihood, she will need some medical attention in order to alleviate her suffering and possibly prevent her death.
2) I go over to the neighbors, who I think are sensible and reasonable people, and tell them that Madeleine's parents should really call a hospital.
3) I shout, over and over again, at Madeleine's parents to take her to a hospital.

Unfortunately, her parents are rather stubborn and slow-witted.  Several hours later, after dealing with diabetic ketoacidosis, the innocent 11-year old child dies.

How would you evaluate my behavior?  Did I behave in a morally acceptable way?

I think that everyone's forgetting something else. God, the All-Knowing, already knew that method would be inneffectual and that the child would die.

[Antidote]

I am curious if you've ever heard of Madeline Kara Neumann.

Wow, that hits really close to home, my 8 year old brother was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes when he was 6 years old.

[Graybeard]

Hi there,
I am curious if you / your group has hear of Nick Vujicic?

lifewithoutlimbs.tv

-[name removed]

There's a thread on him somewhere. He's the guy who God cursed and damned and ordained that he live his life without limbs, isn't he? Why do you think your god stopped there? Why didn't your god make him deaf and blind too?

I commented on the original thread. I told the story of a friend who was damaged by god (thalidomide). He died. He died unhappy and depressed. Your god did that. Your god never helped. Your god never will: he is not there.

Please do not continue with Nick Vujicic. He is entirely reliant upon people to feed him, clothe him, care for him and wipe his arse: and your god did it, didn't he?

Why? (I have a biblical answer to that question, one given by Jesus) What is your explanation?