Author Topic: Why have I forsaken myself?  (Read 620 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Why have I forsaken myself?
« on: December 18, 2013, 04:14:48 AM »
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[47] Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
[48] And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
[49] The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


Putting this in context:

Jesus forces Judas to betray him, by pushing Satan into him:

[26] Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


He then tells Satan to betray him, and then goes to a place where he knows the police will pick him up. They then find false witness against Jesus,

[59] Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
[60] But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
[61] And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.


They then ask Jesus to confirm or deny what these false witnesses said, and Jesus confirms that what the false witnesses said, was in fact true.

[62] And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
[63] But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
[64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
[65] Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy


But he had to leave a pregnant pause, so that he would look noble, while he refused to answer the false charges that were true.

[11] And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
[12] And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.


It's later revealed, in front of Pilate, that he actually said nothing. So, when the priest ripped his clothes, Jesus failed to clarify that what the priest heard was in his imagination.

Despite the fact that Pilate had half a mind to release Jesus, and his wife says he is innocent, Jesus still says nothing.

[14] And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

So, Pilate rolls a dice, so that if God has any favor, God will now act. God doesn't.

[22] Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
[23] And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
[24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.


In Luke's story, Jesus is taken before an enthusiastic Herod, but also gives him the silent treatment.

[8] And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
[9] Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.


In Luke's story, Pilate is prepared to release Jesus, despite any claims, and despite Jesus making no serious defence.

OK, so Jesus then gets crucified. So you now have a god on a cross, who could release himself from the cross at any time, complaining to himself that something has gone wrong with the plan. Was God supposed to get him off the cross? Was there to be a heroic rescue from the Judean People's Front crack suicide squad?

So, what went so wrong with the plan, exactly? If Jesus had been rescued, would anything have been fulfilled?

« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:18:51 AM by Add Homonym »
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Online Andy S.

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 10:54:53 AM »


So, what went so wrong with the plan, exactly? If Jesus had been rescued, would anything have been fulfilled?

Nothing went wrong with the plan.  Sure, some of the crystal clear prophecies from the Old Testament would be fulfilled but if Jesus was rescued then nothing would be "finished" (John 19:30).  The turning point of the history of creation was the death of Jesus.  Can't you see that Jesus had to perform the blood sacrifice of himself to end all blood sacrifices.  Jesus had to forsake himself and perform the human sacrifice of himself to himself to appease himself.  Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, which by the way, is clearly written all over the Old Testament. :laugh:

I'm sorry Ad Homonym for this ad homonym but if you don't understand this then you are an idiot.

P.S. Sorry for the sarcasm and by the way, you should write a bible commentary. 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 10:59:58 AM »
Maybe Jesus wasn’t in on the whole resurrection part of the plan?

Quote
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
This always confused me. If Jesus was god why would he say this? How does this support the trinity? Clearly Jesus and god are not one in the same at least while he is up on the cross.

Quote
26] Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
So then why did Judas die two different horrible deaths? Wouldn’t Judas be innocent if possessed by Satan after Jesus tricked Judas? Isn't Judas a big part of the Jesus suicide mission and thus one of the keys to Christians salvation? No Judas no crucifixion.

Quote
So, what went so wrong with the plan, exactly? If Jesus had been rescued, would anything have been fulfilled?
It’s a question I've wondered myself but no one ever seemed to give me an answer.
If Jesus didn’t die on the cross then the "sacrifice" wouldn’t have been fulfilled. Just like if he didn’t rise from the dead he would just be a dead heretic rather than a god. I've heard theories that the sole purpose of the resurrection is to convert Pagans. Jesus beat death which in the end is something that Thor, Odin, and friends didn’t do during Ragnarok.

Offline Jag

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 11:48:56 AM »
Maybe Jesus wasn’t in on the whole resurrection part of the plan?
<snip>
So then why did Judas die two different horrible deaths? Wouldn’t Judas be innocent if possessed by Satan after Jesus tricked Judas? Isn't Judas a big part of the Jesus suicide mission and thus one of the keys to Christians salvation? No Judas no crucifixion.

That one always bothered me as well. Everything hinges on Judas' betrayal, in which case, being possessed by Satan, where was his free will? The whole thing falls apart if he doesn't betray Jesus, so Judas has to be the villain, whether he chose to be or not.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 04:12:57 PM »
Well this is nearly on topic. Smile a bit!

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 09:33:34 PM »
It’s a question I've wondered myself but no one ever seemed to give me an answer.
If Jesus didn’t die on the cross then the "sacrifice" wouldn’t have been fulfilled. Just like if he didn’t rise from the dead he would just be a dead heretic rather than a god.

It could be part of an original Jewish overlay, where they made the Son of Man actually a man. There could have been one Jewish cult, where Jesus was just a Rabbi, who didn't intend to get crucified.
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mark
[34] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matt
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Most of Matthew's chapter on the crucifixion is lifted from Mark, which means that it could have been part of an earlier tradition that Matthew couldn't delete. However, the rest of the narrative, where he encouraged his own death, is so entrenched, that I wonder why it didn't get deleted.

Here's the fruity conventional explanation
http://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ041312
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 03:21:28 AM »
I'd say Matthew's additions were part of the growing theological thinking that was to enshire Jesus as part of the Trinity. Mark has the basics but all the embellishments add to the picture to make sure there is no doubt in the reader's minds.

Of course, we only have 4 gospels in the bible and there were plenty more - even Luke acknowledged that - and they all have different views. I wonder if Matthew was making a point and was trying to exclude some other writing we don't know about...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 04:50:51 PM »
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The idea of the Trinity is wrong. There is no Trinity. JW's, and some other so-called Christian sects do not accept the Trinity and neither do the Jews or Muslims and everything in the Bible points to their being correct. Even with tortuous re-writing in the OT and massive apologetics, Jesus cannot fit the "predicted" Messiah.

Any casual reader of the Bible will see that there was Yahweh and that the person of Jesus imposed Himself on Yahweh, often claiming to 'channel' Yahweh. The "Holy Spirit" is no more than another, and pointless name for Yahweh's alleged power and presence.

Moreover, if you were first given a New Testament, and then, some years later, given an Old Testament, it would be extremely unlikely that that you would connect the two. Yahweh was a god of the past - he had a "best before" date.

Have you ever watch one of those awful TV soaps where, in an attempt to drum up audience figures, a new character is introduced or one in which there is a spin-off series?

Yes? Well you know the New Testament...

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 10:18:37 AM »
Have you ever watch one of those awful TV soaps where, in an attempt to drum up audience figures, a new character is introduced or one in which there is a spin-off series?

Yes? Well you know the New Testament...
Jesus - the cousin Oliver of religion.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 08:21:06 AM »
Maybe Jesus wasn’t in on the whole resurrection part of the plan?

Quote
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
This always confused me. If Jesus was god why would he say this? How does this support the trinity? Clearly Jesus and god are not one in the same at least while he is up on the cross.

Quote
26] Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
So then why did Judas die two different horrible deaths? Wouldn’t Judas be innocent if possessed by Satan after Jesus tricked Judas? Isn't Judas a big part of the Jesus suicide mission and thus one of the keys to Christians salvation? No Judas no crucifixion.

Quote
So, what went so wrong with the plan, exactly? If Jesus had been rescued, would anything have been fulfilled?
It’s a question I've wondered myself but no one ever seemed to give me an answer.
If Jesus didn’t die on the cross then the "sacrifice" wouldn’t have been fulfilled. Just like if he didn’t rise from the dead he would just be a dead heretic rather than a god. I've heard theories that the sole purpose of the resurrection is to convert Pagans. Jesus beat death which in the end is something that Thor, Odin, and friends didn’t do during Ragnarok.

You guys ask some great questions.  I regret I don't have the answers.  Some of the questions are like arguments the Gnostics back in 1st century Palestine might ask.  For example, can a god of any kind ever be killed?  If so, how does one explain this Jesus of Nazareth?  Can the Christ ("the anointed one" or "the chosen one") be killed?  With such a teaser question the Gnostic would then invite the perplexed person to their next gathering to learn some of the secret teachings of Jesus.  Unlike the modern day Scientologists, the Gnostics (to the best of my knowledge) didn't charge progressive fees as they shared their secret teachings. 

Regarding verse 46, there is a theory that this is another example of "short hand".  Jesus is calling out the first verse of Psalm 22.  The listeners would likely know that this is actually a Psalm of hope.  Here is the entire Psalm (NIV interpretation):



1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?  Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?

2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the one Israel praises.[c]

4 In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them.

5 To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads.

8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him.  Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.

10 From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint.  My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me.

15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.

17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you.

23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the Lord will praise him—may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!
Footnotes:
a.Psalm 22:1 In Hebrew texts 22:1-31 is numbered 22:2-32.
b.Psalm 22:2 Or night, and am not silent
c.Psalm 22:3 Or Yet you are holy, / enthroned on the praises of Israel
d.Psalm 22:15 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text; Masoretic Text strength
e.Psalm 22:16 Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text me, / like a lion
f.Psalm 22:25 Hebrew him

Did Jesus actually say the opening verse?  Did the other accounts of the crucifixion recorded in the Gospels occur as described in this Psalm?  Or did the writers use this Psalm to help describe the crucifixion details?  I have no way of knowing for sure. 

Wishing I could give you a definitive and provable answer I remain,

OldChurchGuy

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »
Did Jesus actually say the opening verse?  Did the other accounts of the crucifixion recorded in the Gospels occur as described in this Psalm?  Or did the writers use this Psalm to help describe the crucifixion details?  I have no way of knowing for sure. 

It's a sure bet. The various redactors of Matthew inserted as many "prophecies" as they could. However, they would have only said "forsaken me" if they regarded Jesus to be human. Sort of indicates that these "prophecies" were put in very early, and became a structure of the narrative that then couldn't be revoked.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 11:01:19 AM »
...but why was it that Luke was unaware of this forsaking? Actually he was unaware of the earthquake and the zombie walking into Jerusalem (something one would not expecvt to be ignored) so was this story even of the same crucifxion?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 11:25:24 AM »
...but why was it that Luke was unaware of this forsaking? Actually he was unaware of the earthquake and the zombie walking into Jerusalem (something one would not expecvt to be ignored) so was this story even of the same crucifxion?

The most likely explanation is that the authors of Luke and Matthew never met each other.  And they are writing to different audiences.  The author of Matthew was probably writing to a Jewish audience so all the Hebrew Bible references were necessary.  The author of Luke was probably writing to a Greek / gentile audience and therefore used images that would make sense to them.  There is a theory they both utilized Mark as a base then went their separate ways.  I am not aware there is any way to prove who wrote the Gospels or if they were written until sometime after the event.

There most likely theory is they were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. by the Romans.  Almost a generation after the fact.  The theory is that the Temple fell, many expected a supernatural event, nothing happened that anyone could see so the writings were a way to explain what was about to happen in the near future.  Granted, it is a theory but seems to explain a lot.  And there are probably numerous other theories and variations on the theories.  All very interesting, to me anyway.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 11:45:26 AM »
...but why was it that Luke was unaware of this forsaking? Actually he was unaware of the earthquake and the zombie walking into Jerusalem (something one would not expecvt to be ignored) so was this story even of the same crucifxion?

The most likely explanation is that the authors of Luke and Matthew never met each other.  And they are writing to different audiences.  The author of Matthew was probably writing to a Jewish audience so all the Hebrew Bible references were necessary.  The author of Luke was probably writing to a Greek / gentile audience and therefore used images that would make sense to them.  There is a theory they both utilized Mark as a base then went their separate ways.  I am not aware there is any way to prove who wrote the Gospels or if they were written until sometime after the event.

There most likely theory is they were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. by the Romans.  Almost a generation after the fact.  The theory is that the Temple fell, many expected a supernatural event, nothing happened that anyone could see so the writings were a way to explain what was about to happen in the near future.  Granted, it is a theory but seems to explain a lot.  And there are probably numerous other theories and variations on the theories.  All very interesting, to me anyway.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Right - so you accept that these texts do not necessarily contain factual truth even if they are considered to have 'religious truth'. So that gives us that the 'forsaken' bit is Matthew's interpretation of the event and not the actual words of Jesus?

I wonder if any of the other Christians would agree with you....
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why have I forsaken myself?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 04:20:46 PM »
...but why was it that Luke was unaware of this forsaking? Actually he was unaware of the earthquake and the zombie walking into Jerusalem (something one would not expecvt to be ignored) so was this story even of the same crucifxion?

The most likely explanation is that the authors of Luke and Matthew never met each other.  And they are writing to different audiences.  The author of Matthew was probably writing to a Jewish audience so all the Hebrew Bible references were necessary.  The author of Luke was probably writing to a Greek / gentile audience and therefore used images that would make sense to them.  There is a theory they both utilized Mark as a base then went their separate ways.  I am not aware there is any way to prove who wrote the Gospels or if they were written until sometime after the event.

There most likely theory is they were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. by the Romans.  Almost a generation after the fact.  The theory is that the Temple fell, many expected a supernatural event, nothing happened that anyone could see so the writings were a way to explain what was about to happen in the near future.  Granted, it is a theory but seems to explain a lot.  And there are probably numerous other theories and variations on the theories.  All very interesting, to me anyway.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Right - so you accept that these texts do not necessarily contain factual truth even if they are considered to have 'religious truth'. So that gives us that the 'forsaken' bit is Matthew's interpretation of the event and not the actual words of Jesus?

I wonder if any of the other Christians would agree with you....

Close.  I am saying there is no way to prove the factual truth of what Jesus the Christ said or didn't say.  I suspect both writers felt they were relaying truth as they knew and understood it just as the writers of the Gospels of Mark and John felt they were also conveying truth.  I think the same can be said of those who wrote the Gospels of Peter, Judas, Philip, Mary and Thomas. 

Where I tend to disagree with many literalist theists is (what seems to me anyway) their confusion that faith in something = irrefutable fact. 

Here is a link if you are interested in the various Gospels. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama