Author Topic: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God  (Read 447 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lectus

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
  • Darwins +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The messiah of mental freedom
Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« on: December 17, 2013, 12:20:53 PM »
Religions in general, most notably Christianity seem to think the entire UNIVERSE was made so that humans could be happy.

God also createn heaven for those humans who believe in God.

In my opinion this is a very egocentric view of God. I'm willing to accept that God created the universe together with other species in other planets, but we're not special and God doesn't answer prayers. I don't have proof that this God exists though.

But the concept that everything God created was for humans is just horrible.

What do you think about this? How do people believe all the planets and stars are useless and and Jesus will come to this planet to save souls because we're special for God?
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1613
  • Darwins +174/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 12:41:36 PM »
When circumstances allow (or dictate, or require) I usually make this point, using gay marriage as an example:" 'God' created the entire universe and everything in it, stars, planets, comets, asteroids, the whole she-bang. And you are so arrogant as to actually believe that the thing this creator god is MOST concerned about is what a single species, on a single planet, in a single solar system, in the ENTIRETY OF THE UNIVERSE is doing with it's genitals? You really believe that?" in a shocked tone of voice, with a WTF look on my face.

Tends to be either a conversation stopper, or the beginning of a good row.  ;)
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4420
  • Darwins +97/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 09:32:24 PM »
When circumstances allow (or dictate, or require) I usually make this point, using gay marriage as an example:" 'God' created the entire universe and everything in it, stars, planets, comets, asteroids, the whole she-bang. And you are so arrogant as to actually believe that the thing this creator god is MOST concerned about is what a single species, on a single planet, in a single solar system, in the ENTIRETY OF THE UNIVERSE is doing with it's genitals? You really believe that?" in a shocked tone of voice, with a WTF look on my face.

Tends to be either a conversation stopper, or the beginning of a good row.  ;)
Don't worry Jag,just in our galaxy alone there is a hunk of space rock with earth's name on it. Christians will blame sin for it hitting the planet.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 11:03:10 PM »
Religions in general, most notably Christianity seem to think the entire UNIVERSE was made so that humans could be happy.

God also createn heaven for those humans who believe in God.

In my opinion this is a very egocentric view of God. I'm willing to accept that God created the universe together with other species in other planets, but we're not special and God doesn't answer prayers. I don't have proof that this God exists though.

But the concept that everything God created was for humans is just horrible.

What do you think about this? How do people believe all the planets and stars are useless and and Jesus will come to this planet to save souls because we're special for God?

I honestly don't know in this day and age how someone would conclude we are all alone in the universe.  I suppose it may be the lack of direct proof.  Wouldn't it be wild if the first aliens from space to contact us turn out to be evangelical missionaries? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy 
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Jonny-UK

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Darwins +31/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 02:24:09 AM »
Arrogant Humans - Clearly god made US in his image!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 02:26:22 AM by Jonny-UK »
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1851
  • Darwins +320/-6
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 10:58:06 AM »
I honestly don't know in this day and age how someone would conclude we are all alone in the universe.  I suppose it may be the lack of direct proof.
The sheer vastness of the observable universe is difficult to grasp.  The large gap in our knowledge of what is necessary for life - and what even constitutes as life - further complicates matters.
Quote
Wouldn't it be wild if the first aliens from space to contact us turn out to be evangelical missionaries? 
From what I've seen evangelicalism is capable of doing, and from what I currently understand about the necessary required level of technology a civilization would need in order to engage in interstellar exploration, and from what I currently understand about how lifeforms deal with strange, unknown lifeforms, and from watching way too many movies, I dare say fear would be my first reaction.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Online xyzzy

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
  • Darwins +48/-0
  • "Nothing happens"
    • xyzzy
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 01:12:29 PM »
I honestly don't know in this day and age how someone would conclude we are all alone in the universe.  I suppose it may be the lack of direct proof.  Wouldn't it be wild if the first aliens from space to contact us turn out to be evangelical missionaries? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

The existence of other life in the universe and our encountering such, particularly at a time when both can effectively communicate, would seem to be vastly different questions. But, yes, I too think it is unlikely that we are "alone".

However, OldChurchGuy, I'm interested in your thoughts on these intergalactic evangelical missionaries.

Lets say, for sake of argument, these missionaries hold beliefs as strong as yours. Also, their reasons are similar to yours (whatever they are). However, and it's a big however, certain aspects of their religion are so in conflict to yours that the "same god, different name" explanation couldn't fly (pun, urgh). Further, if they don't save you your soul is destined to intergalactic hell. It's that important to spread the word that they embarked on their voyage... to the entire universe.

Now what? Do you drop your beliefs and accept theirs? I don't think you would. But why not? And, if not, how do you convince them that they are wrong, really wrong, and their egocentric intergalactic mission is taking people away from the true god?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline wolfunchained

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 01:57:23 PM »
Why create the universe which is infinite and have 1 planet which is worthy of god putting himself into human form and calling himself jesus and willingly coming to earth to die for everyone, from adam & eve through to the babies being born now and for the rest of the population to come to save our souls from sin in which he created?

Why did he not create sin on other worlds? Jesus is in heaven still in human form (from what i was taught as an sda) therefore cant be going around getting crucified on other planets.

Let us not forget god created humans and screwed up the blueprints with 3 out of the first 4 people ever created sinning. Adam and eve with the "talking/flying snake" and cain killed able because god diddnt like his fruit basket he offered to him.

Bit rough that we are all doomed because god cant get a simple design right!
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 638
  • Darwins +96/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 02:08:08 PM »
If it were possible for an alien species to contact Earth or come to Earth, they might try to learn all they could about our religions and beliefs and exploit them.  I would guess that the technology needed for communication or travel over the vast distances of the galaxy or galaxies would be well beyond our own and could easily be made to seem "godly".  Ironically the aliens don't have to convice everyone on Earth, just those willing to believe anything as long as it conforms with what they already believe, which is what the aliens could provide.

Ever see the movie Independence Day?  Yeah, aliens wouldn't really need to go to all the trouble of blowing up cities and having a army invade.  All they would have to do is perform a few magic tricks, fulfill a few prophecies, get the majority of the human race to view them as gods and then they could convince the human race to basically kill itself via all out war and genocide.  Whoever is left can easily be rounded up to a central location to be beamed to heaven, where they would instantly be blown up.  Presto, free planet absent of a race of beings capable of destroying it just so aliens wouldn't want it.

ON TOPIC:

I agree with the OP in regards to egocentric views in general.  I think most people have serious issues admitting that they are wrong and some will even fight to the death believing they are right.

In my view, religion only nurtures egocentric views of reality.  It is very comforting having someone tell you that you are special and the supreme being is looking out for you.  It's so comforting in fact that you start to convice yourself that it is true.  This delusion can lead to very bad consequences.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1613
  • Darwins +174/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 03:28:02 PM »
Let us not forget god created humans and screwed up the blueprints with 3 out of the first 4 people ever created sinning. Adam and eve with the "talking/flying snake" and cain killed able because god diddnt like his fruit basket he offered to him.

Bit rough that we are all doomed because god cant get a simple design right!

Well sonovafillintheblank. I never gave a thought to the 3 out of the first 4 aspect until you pointed it out.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline wolfunchained

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 06:58:59 PM »
Haha yeah JAG, stuffing up 3/4 of the first family ever to be created is a pretty bad batting average!!

Cant believe more people dont see it that way...my parents inparticular just put it down to the whole free will and sin argument. And believe me there have been some arguments.
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 10:44:22 AM »
I honestly don't know in this day and age how someone would conclude we are all alone in the universe.  I suppose it may be the lack of direct proof.  Wouldn't it be wild if the first aliens from space to contact us turn out to be evangelical missionaries? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

The existence of other life in the universe and our encountering such, particularly at a time when both can effectively communicate, would seem to be vastly different questions. But, yes, I too think it is unlikely that we are "alone".

However, OldChurchGuy, I'm interested in your thoughts on these intergalactic evangelical missionaries.

Lets say, for sake of argument, these missionaries hold beliefs as strong as yours. Also, their reasons are similar to yours (whatever they are). However, and it's a big however, certain aspects of their religion are so in conflict to yours that the "same god, different name" explanation couldn't fly (pun, urgh). Further, if they don't save you your soul is destined to intergalactic hell. It's that important to spread the word that they embarked on their voyage... to the entire universe.

Now what? Do you drop your beliefs and accept theirs? I don't think you would. But why not? And, if not, how do you convince them that they are wrong, really wrong, and their egocentric intergalactic mission is taking people away from the true god?

I have no idea what I would do.  My gut reaction would be to ignore them if at all possible.  I will be inclined to let the literalists and the apologists fight the battle since I cannot prove their view is any more provable than mine.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Here's a problem with religion: egocentric view of God
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 07:42:46 PM »
Religions in general, most notably Christianity seem to think the entire UNIVERSE was made so that humans could be happy.

Do you have any support for your assertion? Are you taking someone's word for this or did you read a book that claimed to speak for religions in general and Christianity in particular that made this claim? I'm just curious how you come to this perspective.

Quote
God also createn heaven for those humans who believe in God.

Do you have any support for your assertion? Are you taking someone's word for this or did you read a book that claimed to speak for religions in general and Christianity in particular that made this claim? I'm just curious how you come to this perspective.

Quote
In my opinion this is a very egocentric view of God.

If someone claims that God created the entire universe for the happiness of humanity, then I agree, their view is very egocentric.

Quote
I'm willing to accept that God created the universe together with other species in other planets,

It's good that you have an open mind on this.

Quote
we're not special and God doesn't answer prayers.

How do you mean that we're (I guess you mean humanity) aren't special? Can you elaborate?

If God did exist and didn't answer your prayers, that doesn't mean that God does not answer others prayers.

Quote
I don't have proof that this God exists though.

What kind of proof would you want to see to convince you? Just curious.

Quote
But the concept that everything God created was for humans is just horrible.

Yes, you are absolutely right!  Fortunately, that wasn't why He created it.  Humans just get to benefit from it as a secondary consequence.

Quote
What do you think about this? How do people believe all the planets and stars are useless and and Jesus will come to this planet to save souls because we're special for God?

Not all religions would agree with any of that and especially the part about Jesus.  The planets and stars have been useful to humans for thousands of years as a way to measure time and seasons as well as be appreciated for their beauty. Jesus saves souls because God is special to Jesus.

Peace and grace.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin