Author Topic: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock  (Read 9146 times)

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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #261 on: December 29, 2013, 08:24:51 PM »
It's like an atheist alcoholics only higher power is.....well..... alcohol  Theists need a belief system that bases everything on faith alone, they only have evidence based on a "spiritual" experience. While they can dismiss  any other religions similar experience as an illusion,their spiritual experience is always true.....even if it lacks evidence based on the real world

Someone, I can't find the post, said something in the past few days similar to "a baby doing calculus" and how that would not make sense. I can't even do calculus now and I am an old dude with a minor in math. We all know people who have reasoning skills in certain areas (math, grammar, physics, chemistry, literature, public relations, marketing, retail sales, management) that we don't have, or we find we have reasoning skills that they don't have.  With either, we know that some people get concepts that other people do not. 

Is it unreasonable or impossible to think that there could be humans who get spiritual concepts and have reasoning skills that others don't have and could not understand?  Just a rhetorical question that requires no response, only reflection.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #262 on: December 29, 2013, 08:28:18 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

GF, I would like you to help me clarify something. Nobody here is denying that people sometimes do bad things, be it belittling another forum member or stabbing the elderly.

The difference between your religious POV and our non-religious POV is our answers to the question why. Christians, who feel each person is infused with sin because of Adam and Eve, see everything every one does wrong as sin. Those of us who do not look at the world that way, and who in fact disagree with it as a source of wrongdoing, see bad behavior as being the result of everything from selfishness and bad homes to fear and/or unnecessary aggressiveness. And a thousand other individual and social reasons.

Christians see sin as a simple fact of life, unavoidable and forgivable only by god. As per Christians, a person could go through life with complete honesty and integrity and still be a sinner in need of saving. Those of us unencumbered by the concept would spend our time appreciating that person rather than telling them that they are wrong in any way.

To me, the concept of sin is one that adds another layer on human behavior. If I rob a bank to support my drug habit and use some of the money to buy a gun to kill my landlord and his family, I'm bad bad by any standard. I'm even evil. Which should be enough to define me. The Christian insistence that I would also be a sinner adds nothing, except a label that helps Christians keep things in perspective. As strange perspective where a four year old stealing her first piece of candy is as much a sinner as murderer me. And an even stranger perspective that her newborn baby brother, two days old, is also just as much a sinner as murderer me.

Some of us like being able to differentiate between good and bad, and some of us appreciate that while nobody is perfect, most of us are good enough to cause very little pain to others. Lumping folks together for your convenience is not useful to the rest of us.

Can you at least see why some of us consider the concept outdated, and one that was never right in the first place. Even though you disagree with us?

Edit: rewrote a sentence that  was confusing. And a spelling error.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:30:24 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #263 on: December 29, 2013, 08:37:26 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

GF, I would like you to help me clarify something. Nobody here is denying that people sometimes do bad things, be it belittling another forum member or stabbing the elderly.

The difference between your religious POV and our non-religious POV is our answers to the question why. Christians, who feel each person is infused with sin because of Adam and Eve, see everything every one does wrong as sin. Those of us who do not look at the world that way, and who in fact disagree with it as a source of wrongdoing, see bad behavior as being the result of everything from selfishness and bad homes to fear and/or unnecessary aggressiveness. And a thousand other individual and social reasons.

Christians see sin as a simple fact of life, unavoidable and forgivable only by god. As per Christians, a person could go through life with complete honesty and integrity and still be a sinner in need of saving. Those of us unencumbered by the concept would spend our time appreciating that person rather than telling them that they are wrong in any way.

To me, the concept of sin is one that adds another layer on human behavior. If I rob a bank to support my drug habit and use some of the money to buy a gun to kill my landlord and his family, I'm bad bad by any standard. I'm even evil. Which should be enough to define me. The Christian insistence that I would also be a sinner adds nothing, except a label that helps Christians keep things in perspective. As strange perspective where a four year old stealing her first piece of candy is as much a sinner as murderer me. And an even stranger perspective that her newborn baby brother, two days old, is also just as much a sinner as murderer me.

Some of us like being able to differentiate between good and bad, and some of us appreciate that while nobody is perfect, most of us are good enough to cause very little pain to others. Lumping folks together for your convenience is not useful to the rest of us.

Can you at least see why some of us consider the concept outdated, and one that was never right in the first place. Even though you disagree with us?

Edit: rewrote a sentence that  was confusing. And a spelling error.

ParkingPlaces, yes, thank you, you have explained your point of view very well.  You are getting close to having a good understanding of the Christian view, but I will not address the things that you didn't quite get unless you want to hear it.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #264 on: December 29, 2013, 08:54:07 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

GF, I would like you to help me clarify something. Nobody here is denying that people sometimes do bad things, be it belittling another forum member or stabbing the elderly.

The difference between your religious POV and our non-religious POV is our answers to the question why. Christians, who feel each person is infused with sin because of Adam and Eve, see everything every one does wrong as sin. Those of us who do not look at the world that way, and who in fact disagree with it as a source of wrongdoing, see bad behavior as being the result of everything from selfishness and bad homes to fear and/or unnecessary aggressiveness. And a thousand other individual and social reasons.

Christians see sin as a simple fact of life, unavoidable and forgivable only by god. As per Christians, a person could go through life with complete honesty and integrity and still be a sinner in need of saving. Those of us unencumbered by the concept would spend our time appreciating that person rather than telling them that they are wrong in any way.

To me, the concept of sin is one that adds another layer on human behavior. If I rob a bank to support my drug habit and use some of the money to buy a gun to kill my landlord and his family, I'm bad bad by any standard. I'm even evil. Which should be enough to define me. The Christian insistence that I would also be a sinner adds nothing, except a label that helps Christians keep things in perspective. As strange perspective where a four year old stealing her first piece of candy is as much a sinner as murderer me. And an even stranger perspective that her newborn baby brother, two days old, is also just as much a sinner as murderer me.

Some of us like being able to differentiate between good and bad, and some of us appreciate that while nobody is perfect, most of us are good enough to cause very little pain to others. Lumping folks together for your convenience is not useful to the rest of us.

Can you at least see why some of us consider the concept outdated, and one that was never right in the first place. Even though you disagree with us?

Edit: rewrote a sentence that  was confusing. And a spelling error.

ParkingPlaces, yes, thank you, you have explained your point of view very well.  You are getting close to having a good understanding of the Christian view, but I will not address the things that you didn't quite get unless you want to hear it.

I hoped I was sounding curious. Yes I'd like to hear more.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #265 on: December 29, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »
Gf how do you dismiss other faiths and the people in those religions having a spiritual experience ...... As usual you ignored the point of the post.

 You IMO,would dismiss other faiths and their spiritual experiences as delusion,yes or no?
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #266 on: December 29, 2013, 09:41:52 PM »
Gf how do you dismiss other faiths and the people in those religions having a spiritual experience ...... As usual you ignored the point of the post.

 You IMO,would dismiss other faiths and their spiritual experiences as delusion,yes or no?

I'll respond to ParkingPlaces and I hope that will give a little more information.  Be nice, I'm not ignoring anything.  I think I put in more effort than a lot of people in responding.

But no, based on the fact that other religions are based on false idols which Paul identifies as demons, which we Christians believe to be fallen angels, I would think that people who worship demons also have some type of spiritual experience as well.  Demons are part of the spirit world in Christian theology.

The only delusion involved would be the lies that the demons get the people to believe.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #267 on: December 29, 2013, 09:54:05 PM »
There is no evidence to base what Paul or any other Christian says about other religions  praising false Gods anymore than there is clear evidence for what an Islamic believes about their profit/god. There is only belief,nothing more
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #268 on: December 29, 2013, 10:03:07 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

GF, I would like you to help me clarify something. Nobody here is denying that people sometimes do bad things, be it belittling another forum member or stabbing the elderly.

The difference between your religious POV and our non-religious POV is our answers to the question why. Christians, who feel each person is infused with sin because of Adam and Eve, see everything every one does wrong as sin.

Yes, if we are speaking of people who have no faith in Christ as Redeemer and Lord, then all they do that is wrong is sin.  In addition, all that they do right is also sin.  "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Romans 14:23c.

Once someone comes to faith in Christ, they still sin, but their sin and their guiltiness for it is removed by Christ.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Quote
Those of us who do not look at the world that way, and who in fact disagree with it as a source of wrongdoing, see bad behavior as being the result of everything from selfishness and bad homes to fear and/or unnecessary aggressiveness. And a thousand other individual and social reasons.

Christians see sin as a simple fact of life, unavoidable and forgivable only by god. As per Christians, a person could go through life with complete honesty and integrity and still be a sinner in need of saving. Those of us unencumbered by the concept would spend our time appreciating that person rather than telling them that they are wrong in any way.

Yes, a person could go through life with complete honesty and integrity, but that does not mean they don't have other sins that they commit.  No human is completely perfect.  Someone can be the most upright, honest, generous, helpful person in the world, but if they are depending on their own goodness instead of God's mercy for salvation, then they have committed the sin of rebelling against God.

Quote
To me, the concept of sin is one that adds another layer on human behavior. If I rob a bank to support my drug habit and use some of the money to buy a gun to kill my landlord and his family, I'm bad bad by any standard. I'm even evil. Which should be enough to define me. The Christian insistence that I would also be a sinner adds nothing, except a label that helps Christians keep things in perspective.

People do drugs, rob banks, kill people, steal candy, hide behind the name "Christian" to commit atrocious acts, and deny God because they are sinners.  See the difference? 

Quote
As strange perspective where a four year old stealing her first piece of candy is as much a sinner as murderer me. And an even stranger perspective that her newborn baby brother, two days old, is also just as much a sinner as murderer me.

For the most part, Christians who consider themselves "evangelical" (which includes a lot of denominations and non-denominational Christians) would say that yes, everyone is a sinner, but the Bible considers some sins worse than others.  There is evidence for this in Old Testament times by the types of punishments that were awarded to offenses.  Some you pay out of your pocket, some you lose a tooth, others you lose your life.

This is from Ligonier Ministries:

There will be degrees of punishment during the day of wrath. One “trivial” sin makes us guilty of the whole law and liable to eternal torment (James 2:10). Yet some acts are worse than others and deserve harsher punishment (Num. 35:9–29). As bad as Sodom was, her sentence will be lighter on Judgment Day than Bethsaida’s because Sodom never saw Jesus (Matt. 11:20–24). The sinner who never hears of Christ will go to hell, yet his pain will be less intense than those who hear the Gospel each Sunday and refuse to repent.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/degrees-punishment/

Other than blaspheming the Holy Spirit, all other sins - no matter how heinous - God will forgive.


Quote
Some of us like being able to differentiate between good and bad, and some of us appreciate that while nobody is perfect, most of us are good enough to cause very little pain to others. Lumping folks together for your convenience is not useful to the rest of us.

Can you at least see why some of us consider the concept outdated, and one that was never right in the first place. Even though you disagree with us?

Edit: rewrote a sentence that  was confusing. And a spelling error.

We all, Christians, theists, pagans, and atheists, are lumped together in the same bucket.  Christians aren't pointing the finger in holier-than-thou righteousness (or at least they have no grounds to do so and shouldn't be doing so) at atheists when we say "You're a sinner."  We are sinners too.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies some things from very common Christian perspectives on the issue of sin and sinners. 

If you aren't going to believe, the least I can do is help you know what it is that you really don't believe.

Peace and grace.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #269 on: December 29, 2013, 10:04:44 PM »
There is no evidence to base what Paul or any other Christian says about other religions  praising false Gods anymore than there is clear evidence for what an Islamic believes about their profit/god. There is only belief,nothing more

Right, 12M. But if it matters, which it probably does not, I just hope to help you understand where Christians get their beliefs.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #270 on: December 29, 2013, 10:11:01 PM »
There is no evidence to base what Paul or any other Christian says about other religions  praising false Gods anymore than there is clear evidence for what an Islamic believes about their profit/god. There is only belief,nothing more

Right, 12M. But if it matters, which it probably does not, I just hope to help you understand where Christians get their beliefs.
those of other faiths are taught the same thing about your religion
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #271 on: December 29, 2013, 10:18:50 PM »
There is no evidence to base what Paul or any other Christian says about other religions  praising false Gods anymore than there is clear evidence for what an Islamic believes about their profit/god. There is only belief,nothing more

Right, 12M. But if it matters, which it probably does not, I just hope to help you understand where Christians get their beliefs.
those of other faiths are taught the same thing about your religion

That's not entirely correct.  Hinduism would say "Yes, you may worship Jesus as a god among all of the other gods of Hinduism."
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #272 on: December 29, 2013, 11:07:14 PM »
We can identify the symptoms that are caused by the disease.  The disease is "sin" and the symptoms are "sins". But this view is based on objective, moral truth.  If you don't believe that there is objective moral truth but instead believe that truth is relative, then it probably won't be productive to continue the discussion.

This portion of the discussion based on my curiosity about how you rationalize a vague, subjective idea and apply it as a factual concept. I'm curious how you do this, as opposed to how I did this, and the many Christians who have explained to me how they do it. Obviously I don't agree with you that there exists an objective moral "truth" based on your belief it exists. It's a fairly well-established fact that moral ideas evolve according to various conditions (such as the history and knowledge a society has, exposure to other ideas, etc).

You're not going to accept my argument because it goes against your core belief. When one's belief is more important for personal reasons, new information will be naturally discarded. It's part of cognitive dissonance, another well-supported understanding. As Sam Harris says, “If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide that proves they should value evidence. If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value logic?” There is none that I know of, so I don't believe this to be a discussion of mutual exchange of ideas, simply because you have to guard your belief against conflicting ideas.

So no, this isn't a logical discussion or a mutual exchange of information and ideas, but I appreciate your personal explanations, and I suspect this is interesting for others reading as well.

But it is not defined by "making someone feel bad."  If you have a huge zit on your face, and you ask me if you look ok before you go out into public, and I am truthful with you and say "albeto, you have a big zit on your face," I would actually be doing something good for you but it could hurt your feelings.  Critical thinking would lead you to see that sin cannot be defined by making someone feel bad.

That sounds reasonable enough. So how do you defined "sin"?

Ok, you are mistaken, the Christian concept of "sin" is not "really a matter of articulating when one person feels violated in some way, be it emotionally, physically, etc."  There is the disease of sin, which infects every human and causes them to be tainted with being less than they could be.  The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that someone is as evil and mean as they could be but rather that their reason and intellect is not perfect.  The nature of man rebels against God (which is evident in this forum).  Ultimately, whatever one does to harm someone else is not only a sin against that person but also a sin against God, the one who created that person and to whom that person belongs. 

I think you're using the word "disease" incorrectly. We understand diseases to be an explanation for why a body organ, part, structure, or system is not correctly functioning. We know Parkinson's is a disease because we know what the healthy neurological process looks like. There is no such standard for human behavior, and even you Christians cannot agree with what "sin" is.

The homeless are evidences of man's sin, not evidence of a lack of God's existence nor of a capricious, malevolent, heartless God. I've volunteered at several homeless shelters for the past couple of years.  Most of the people in the ones I help with made bad choices - usually drugs.  A few are there because someone in their life made bad choices - abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc.  Humans are not entitled to any blessings, so I'm not sure why people seem to think that just because God allows some to suffer more than others that He is unjust. When we look upon others who suffer and it causes something in us to say "This is not right!", then that is evidence that instilled in mankind is the absolute moral truth of what is wrong and what is right, which leads one to the concept of sin and righteousness.

That's a very religiously inspired distraction from the point I made. You gave as evidence of God, "nature." I maintain that nature is morally neutral, and there is no evidence to suggest it is manipulated by some super-natural mechanism. You talk about people making choices within the paradigm of nature, but people making choices doesn't address the concept of nature being evidence of God.

So let's pretend I have no idea what God is. If you are a lawyer and I am on the jury, could you argue that nature provides evidence of this God? Would should your argument be better than another Christians'?

The moral and ethical and just plane intellectual offenses of blaming the victim, and ignoring the many circumstances that better explain one's existence in a shelter or mansion, I'll ignore. Just for the sake of assuming you wish to maintain a compassionate character to others, I'll let you know that this comment is arrogant, and patronizing, and as capricious and offensive as the very "sin" you wish to believe God has fixed in you.

You would just have to know the people that I am talking about. 

That's the nice thing about research. It takes into consideration your personal experiences, and does this hundreds and thousands of times, across various scenarios with unrelated people. So you can believe that God changes people, but your personal experiences don't conform with what we know to be true.

Giving your love is always on faith.  You give with the faith that it will be received and reciprocated.

Not at all. People learn how to judge others according to certain characteristics. Those who possess characteristics we find admirable are people we choose to spend our time with. Those who possess characteristics we don't admire, or those we find distasteful, we tend to avoid. We don't just choose one person to love, have faith that they won't betray or hurt us, hold our breaths and hope for the best. We "fall in love" with people we admire for a variety of reasons, and when those affections are returned, we confirm a pattern of habit. This "faith" as you call it, is really a matter of predicting a likely outcome to a novel scenario, but this prediction is based on evidence. In other words, it's an educated guess, not blind trust.

Often people find out more about the ones they love after they have already fallen in love.  Most Christians know very little theology when they come to Christ.  They know they are sinners who need forgiving and that Jesus died for them so that they could be forgiven.  Beyond that, they usually can't tell you very much, but they have all the information they need to make a good choice.

Yes, you Christians certainly do a good job of convincing people they have a disease so you can share with them a cure (one that tends to cost money and encourages subservience and obedience, how convenient, right?). Interestingly, outside your religion, this "knowledge" would never be discovered. If all the information about your religion were to be wiped clean from the planet, a new religion would likely surface, but it wouldn't be yours. It wouldn't be anything like yours. It wouldn't contain any of the "truths" you believe are universal.  If, on the other hand, all scientific knowledge were to be wiped from the planet, humans would eventually make the same discoveries. This explains why humans had discovered and applied things like agriculture and husbandry all across the globe before knowledge of each other's existence, but your Christ was completely unknown to the Americas before 1492.

Peace and grace.

While I appreciate the gesture, your God is offensive to me. If he does exist, and you communicate with him in some way, I would request that you ask him instead to extend this grace and peace to someone who could use it more. There are millions of them, many under the age of 5 alone.


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #273 on: December 30, 2013, 03:32:36 AM »
God assigned Adam to represent all of mankind.  Adam sinned, representing that any man, if given the opportunity to be in Adam's place, would have done the same thing.

Your point here seems to be that, whichever human had represented mankind, they would al, without exception, have failed - therefore, Adam's failure can stand as representative of every ma's  the question then follows: if every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

And if that is the case, whose "fault" is it?  If I create something that has no chance at all of succeeding at something, is it not the case that the fault lies with the creator?

How can you blame something for an inevitable failure that is the result of the way it was created?

Anfauglir, you have summed it up well. God created man with the ability to fail and man eagerly makes the choice to fail. 

NO.  I'm sorry, but you've shifted the goalposts ever so slightly there.  It was not a "choice" to fall, since you have already agreed that there was no way any man could ever have chosen otherwise.  There was no "choice" involved at all - your god created man the way he did so that failure was inevitable.  That lays ALL blame for the fall squarely on the shoulders of god - I'm not going to let pass your subtle attempt there to shift the blame back to man.

I can't explain the paradox of God being sovereign and fore-ordaining all things yet is not the author of sin, and man being held responsible for his choices inevitable sin, but I do believe it.  No, it is not rational.  It is philosophical and spiritual, which I understand doesn't mean anything to non-theists.  But that is my belief which I am only sharing with you because you asked.

Again, I've changed your statement to better reflect what you just agreed happened.

Of course you can't explain it, because the only answer is that Yahweh specifically set up Eden and man so that the only possibility was failure.  Take me through it step by step, philosophically or spiritually or rationally, so that I understand it the way you do.  I'd appreciate it if you could fill in the blanks on line 3 below.

1) Yahweh created man such that it was impossible for any man NOT to sin.
2) Man sinned.
3) The being who is responsible for sin is _______, because _________.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 03:34:32 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #274 on: December 30, 2013, 03:16:49 PM »
GF,

I'm curious, how did you become introduced to your faith in this personified god?  Usually it's always by family and of course your born and raised geography.  I wouldn't suspect you would fall outside this so common statistic?

Anyways, I'm always curious why there's a trend of religious people who skip natures/physics of millions/billions of years of random particle collisions and gravity to bring about what we now see today.  Also, agree to blindly skip evolution (it doesn't and can't happen apprently) and pretend nothing could've ever evolved into the advanced animal species such as us humans today....

Why is it easier to think that a "genie blinked" and "poof" our universe is the way it is today and now everyone else regardless of the thousands of miles of geography separated people (you see, people didn't have internet access back then and gods communication was worse than a 56k modem of its time) need to know they are born sinners and the story of god.

If you actually put this into perspective of the actual "time" and "geography" this story took place and expect "everybody" else on the planet (no internet, TV, or post office yet to readily communicate this - do you understand this...) to believe this?

And then people wonder how we all think different and have different thoughts, gods, and religions and the end of the day! - Really....

In other words, you find the above more probable/possible than the fact that we just evolved over millions of years along with the other animals and biology of life!? Don't let our evolved human brains fool you in that just because we evolved with speech, cell phones, clothes to cover "sinful" parts, automobiles, airplanes, trains, and now computers separates from just.... well.... animals!  Doesn't our behavior the good mixed with the bad mixed with the pure evil just remind of the animal kingdom at all?...

Please try to understand that sometimes a Christians comes off as like me trying to tell my "stubborn" Siberian Husky dog that he's born sinner, stop chasing the cats, and doing things that I don't approve of... He's an animal - just like us....

 You don't see it like do you though?...

Again, how did you become personally interested/introduced in religion and thought about it in such a personal, personified way in which a character whom you've never met you would defend with your life because of you believe an afterlife as well...

I truly have a difficult time understanding the concept that what you've accepted as true can be true when you can just simply remove the complexity of your story from the entire physics/universe equation.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70340966/12-12-2013%2012-58-44%20PM.jpg

In nature, no rights or wrongs (no sins), just consequences... Oh well... However, having said that, developed laws over time that "evolve" over time to reflect the "right and wrong" of our time.

Edited - added last sentence for clarity just in case it was misinterpreted as everything we do OK...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 03:39:06 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #275 on: December 30, 2013, 04:32:38 PM »
We can identify the symptoms that are caused by the disease.  The disease is "sin" and the symptoms are "sins". But this view is based on objective, moral truth.  If you don't believe  but instead believe that truth is relative, then it probably won't be productive to continue the discussion.
This sounds very much like, "Unless you agree that I am the best quarterback ever, I am taking my ball home." You probably didn't mean it that way. However, you will probably wish to show that your belief that "there is objective moral truth" is objectively true.

I have therefore started a thread at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26131.0.html in which I invite you to

(i) define “moral truth”
(ii) show that there is objective moral truth.

I feel that this would be most helpful and avoid derailing the present thread.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline MadBunny

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #276 on: December 30, 2013, 05:06:26 PM »
Christians, try this on for size.

"I have never sinned against Hanuman, hanuman is not real.  It is not possible to sin against a fictional character."

"I have never sinned against Ra.  Ra is not real.  It is not possible to sin against a fictional character."

Rinse, repeat.  Add as many fictional characters as you like, heck feel free to include Maier, Xenu, Jedi and PAK protectors.  Now, clearly people who believe, or believed these fictional characters may find what you are doing offensive, but that's kind of their problem isn't it? 

Sin, as a concept is simply a crime against a god.  If that god does not exist then you are completely and utterly free of sin.

I have never sinned against your god.  Your god does not exist, therefore I have never sinned.
I do not need to be forgiven by a fictional character for a fictional crime.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #277 on: December 30, 2013, 06:00:19 PM »

Can you all  please back off for second.... I would like to hear why and what he what he believes, what is the origin?

I want to hear the personal origin of his god... Why he believes what he believes and needs to go on onnth defense.

Please explain, GF, explain your ceremony of truth and how you became to look at other people different because of of that ceremony you had....
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #278 on: December 30, 2013, 06:02:47 PM »
We can identify the symptoms that are caused by the disease.  The disease is "sin" and the symptoms are "sins". But this view is based on objective, moral truth.  If you don't believe that there is objective moral truth but instead believe that truth is relative, then it probably won't be productive to continue the discussion.

This portion of the discussion based on my curiosity about how you rationalize a vague, subjective idea and apply it as a factual concept. I'm curious how you do this, as opposed to how I did this, and the many Christians who have explained to me how they do it. Obviously I don't agree with you that there exists an objective moral "truth" based on your belief it exists. It's a fairly well-established fact that moral ideas evolve according to various conditions (such as the history and knowledge a society has, exposure to other ideas, etc).

You're not going to accept my argument because it goes against your core belief. When one's belief is more important for personal reasons, new information will be naturally discarded. It's part of cognitive dissonance, another well-supported understanding. As Sam Harris says, “If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide that proves they should value evidence. If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value logic?” There is none that I know of, so I don't believe this to be a discussion of mutual exchange of ideas, simply because you have to guard your belief against conflicting ideas.

So no, this isn't a logical discussion or a mutual exchange of information and ideas, but I appreciate your personal explanations, and I suspect this is interesting for others reading as well.

But it is not defined by "making someone feel bad."  If you have a huge zit on your face, and you ask me if you look ok before you go out into public, and I am truthful with you and say "albeto, you have a big zit on your face," I would actually be doing something good for you but it could hurt your feelings.  Critical thinking would lead you to see that sin cannot be defined by making someone feel bad.

That sounds reasonable enough. So how do you defined "sin"?

Ok, you are mistaken, the Christian concept of "sin" is not "really a matter of articulating when one person feels violated in some way, be it emotionally, physically, etc."  There is the disease of sin, which infects every human and causes them to be tainted with being less than they could be.  The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that someone is as evil and mean as they could be but rather that their reason and intellect is not perfect.  The nature of man rebels against God (which is evident in this forum).  Ultimately, whatever one does to harm someone else is not only a sin against that person but also a sin against God, the one who created that person and to whom that person belongs. 

I think you're using the word "disease" incorrectly. We understand diseases to be an explanation for why a body organ, part, structure, or system is not correctly functioning. We know Parkinson's is a disease because we know what the healthy neurological process looks like. There is no such standard for human behavior, and even you Christians cannot agree with what "sin" is.

The homeless are evidences of man's sin, not evidence of a lack of God's existence nor of a capricious, malevolent, heartless God. I've volunteered at several homeless shelters for the past couple of years.  Most of the people in the ones I help with made bad choices - usually drugs.  A few are there because someone in their life made bad choices - abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc.  Humans are not entitled to any blessings, so I'm not sure why people seem to think that just because God allows some to suffer more than others that He is unjust. When we look upon others who suffer and it causes something in us to say "This is not right!", then that is evidence that instilled in mankind is the absolute moral truth of what is wrong and what is right, which leads one to the concept of sin and righteousness.

That's a very religiously inspired distraction from the point I made. You gave as evidence of God, "nature." I maintain that nature is morally neutral, and there is no evidence to suggest it is manipulated by some super-natural mechanism. You talk about people making choices within the paradigm of nature, but people making choices doesn't address the concept of nature being evidence of God.

So let's pretend I have no idea what God is. If you are a lawyer and I am on the jury, could you argue that nature provides evidence of this God? Would should your argument be better than another Christians'?

The moral and ethical and just plane intellectual offenses of blaming the victim, and ignoring the many circumstances that better explain one's existence in a shelter or mansion, I'll ignore. Just for the sake of assuming you wish to maintain a compassionate character to others, I'll let you know that this comment is arrogant, and patronizing, and as capricious and offensive as the very "sin" you wish to believe God has fixed in you.

You would just have to know the people that I am talking about. 

That's the nice thing about research. It takes into consideration your personal experiences, and does this hundreds and thousands of times, across various scenarios with unrelated people. So you can believe that God changes people, but your personal experiences don't conform with what we know to be true.

Giving your love is always on faith.  You give with the faith that it will be received and reciprocated.

Not at all. People learn how to judge others according to certain characteristics. Those who possess characteristics we find admirable are people we choose to spend our time with. Those who possess characteristics we don't admire, or those we find distasteful, we tend to avoid. We don't just choose one person to love, have faith that they won't betray or hurt us, hold our breaths and hope for the best. We "fall in love" with people we admire for a variety of reasons, and when those affections are returned, we confirm a pattern of habit. This "faith" as you call it, is really a matter of predicting a likely outcome to a novel scenario, but this prediction is based on evidence. In other words, it's an educated guess, not blind trust.

Often people find out more about the ones they love after they have already fallen in love.  Most Christians know very little theology when they come to Christ.  They know they are sinners who need forgiving and that Jesus died for them so that they could be forgiven.  Beyond that, they usually can't tell you very much, but they have all the information they need to make a good choice.

Yes, you Christians certainly do a good job of convincing people they have a disease so you can share with them a cure (one that tends to cost money and encourages subservience and obedience, how convenient, right?). Interestingly, outside your religion, this "knowledge" would never be discovered. If all the information about your religion were to be wiped clean from the planet, a new religion would likely surface, but it wouldn't be yours. It wouldn't be anything like yours. It wouldn't contain any of the "truths" you believe are universal.  If, on the other hand, all scientific knowledge were to be wiped from the planet, humans would eventually make the same discoveries. This explains why humans had discovered and applied things like agriculture and husbandry all across the globe before knowledge of each other's existence, but your Christ was completely unknown to the Americas before 1492.

Peace and grace.

While I appreciate the gesture, your God is offensive to me. If he does exist, and you communicate with him in some way, I would request that you ask him instead to extend this grace and peace to someone who could use it more. There are millions of them, many under the age of 5 alone.



albeto, I think that our perspectives are so far apart that there is nothing that I can say in response to your post that will be of any interest to you. 
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #279 on: December 30, 2013, 06:03:34 PM »
GF,

I'll tell you my history of my religious mom if you tell me your religios history...
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #280 on: December 30, 2013, 06:06:47 PM »
God assigned Adam to represent all of mankind.  Adam sinned, representing that any man, if given the opportunity to be in Adam's place, would have done the same thing.

Your point here seems to be that, whichever human had represented mankind, they would al, without exception, have failed - therefore, Adam's failure can stand as representative of every ma's  the question then follows: if every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

And if that is the case, whose "fault" is it?  If I create something that has no chance at all of succeeding at something, is it not the case that the fault lies with the creator?

How can you blame something for an inevitable failure that is the result of the way it was created?

Anfauglir, you have summed it up well. God created man with the ability to fail and man eagerly makes the choice to fail. 

NO.  I'm sorry, but you've shifted the goalposts ever so slightly there.  It was not a "choice" to fall, since you have already agreed that there was no way any man could ever have chosen otherwise.  There was no "choice" involved at all - your god created man the way he did so that failure was inevitable.  That lays ALL blame for the fall squarely on the shoulders of god - I'm not going to let pass your subtle attempt there to shift the blame back to man.

I can't explain the paradox of God being sovereign and fore-ordaining all things yet is not the author of sin, and man being held responsible for his choices inevitable sin, but I do believe it.  No, it is not rational.  It is philosophical and spiritual, which I understand doesn't mean anything to non-theists.  But that is my belief which I am only sharing with you because you asked.

Again, I've changed your statement to better reflect what you just agreed happened.

Of course you can't explain it, because the only answer is that Yahweh specifically set up Eden and man so that the only possibility was failure.  Take me through it step by step, philosophically or spiritually or rationally, so that I understand it the way you do.  I'd appreciate it if you could fill in the blanks on line 3 below.

1) Yahweh created man such that it was impossible for any man NOT to sin.
2) Man sinned.
3) The being who is responsible for sin is _______, because _________.

Thank you.

Ok, my opinion and that of many other Christians is that man makes the choice to sin.  He was in a perfect setting, having a relationship with God, all his needs were met, yet it was not enough for him.  He got greedy and prideful.  Was he set up to sin?  No, he was set up to have no reason to choose to sin, yet because he is given ONE choice go bad - not hundreds or thousands of choices to bring him down - just one, everyone blames God.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #281 on: December 30, 2013, 06:08:42 PM »
OK - stop ignoring the question.


How were you sold/introduced to god?
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #282 on: December 30, 2013, 06:10:59 PM »
Seriously, how did you finally accept the "man strangers" logic and/or just concede to what you born unto?
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #283 on: December 30, 2013, 06:12:00 PM »

Pleas explain in detail your transition from our thinking to your thinking....
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #284 on: December 30, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »
GF,

I'm curious, how did you become introduced to your faith in this personified god?  Usually it's always by family and of course your born and raised geography.  I wouldn't suspect you would fall outside this so common statistic?

Anyways, I'm always curious why there's a trend of religious people who skip natures/physics of millions/billions of years of random particle collisions and gravity to bring about what we now see today.  Also, agree to blindly skip evolution (it doesn't and can't happen apprently) and pretend nothing could've ever evolved into the advanced animal species such as us humans today....

Why is it easier to think that a "genie blinked" and "poof" our universe is the way it is today and now everyone else regardless of the thousands of miles of geography separated people (you see, people didn't have internet access back then and gods communication was worse than a 56k modem of its time) need to know they are born sinners and the story of god.

If you actually put this into perspective of the actual "time" and "geography" this story took place and expect "everybody" else on the planet (no internet, TV, or post office yet to readily communicate this - do you understand this...) to believe this?

And then people wonder how we all think different and have different thoughts, gods, and religions and the end of the day! - Really....

In other words, you find the above more probable/possible than the fact that we just evolved over millions of years along with the other animals and biology of life!? Don't let our evolved human brains fool you in that just because we evolved with speech, cell phones, clothes to cover "sinful" parts, automobiles, airplanes, trains, and now computers separates from just.... well.... animals!  Doesn't our behavior the good mixed with the bad mixed with the pure evil just remind of the animal kingdom at all?...

Please try to understand that sometimes a Christians comes off as like me trying to tell my "stubborn" Siberian Husky dog that he's born sinner, stop chasing the cats, and doing things that I don't approve of... He's an animal - just like us....

 You don't see it like do you though?...

Again, how did you become personally interested/introduced in religion and thought about it in such a personal, personified way in which a character whom you've never met you would defend with your life because of you believe an afterlife as well...

I truly have a difficult time understanding the concept that what you've accepted as true can be true when you can just simply remove the complexity of your story from the entire physics/universe equation.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70340966/12-12-2013%2012-58-44%20PM.jpg

In nature, no rights or wrongs (no sins), just consequences... Oh well... However, having said that, developed laws over time that "evolve" over time to reflect the "right and wrong" of our time.

Edited - added last sentence for clarity just in case it was misinterpreted as everything we do OK...
Somewhere in another thread, I've posted a short synopsis of my journey from cultural Christianity to unbelief and atheist, then to deism, and then actually following Jesus. But from your post, you seem to already have made your mind up about me and Christianity, so it would probably not be the best investment of my time to repeat that other post for you.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #285 on: December 30, 2013, 06:17:14 PM »
Yea, your investment of time would be better spent on the wrong side of history in which I've already explained.

Do you think gays should have equal rights?

Do you think guns are awesome!

Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #286 on: December 30, 2013, 06:17:26 PM »
We can identify the symptoms that are caused by the disease.  The disease is "sin" and the symptoms are "sins". But this view is based on objective, moral truth.  If you don't believe  but instead believe that truth is relative, then it probably won't be productive to continue the discussion.
This sounds very much like, "Unless you agree that I am the best quarterback ever, I am taking my ball home." You probably didn't mean it that way. However, you will probably wish to show that your belief that "there is objective moral truth" is objectively true.

I have therefore started a thread at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26131.0.html in which I invite you to

(i) define “moral truth”
(ii) show that there is objective moral truth.

I feel that this would be most helpful and avoid derailing the present thread.

Graybeard, I only meant that I do not want to waste my time if no one wants to hear my opinion.  No one wanting to hear my opinion does not make me mad and want to take my marbles home, but pretending to want my opinion then finding some secondary or tertiary issue to then create a new attack and rabbit trail doesn't make me happy either.

I'll check out your new thread.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #287 on: December 30, 2013, 06:24:54 PM »
Don't ignore my post...

Why do you ignore common physics and animal behavior.

I don 't care what you posted before about your religions origins and/or reasoning.

You think this this is first time I've had to do this with someone like you! 
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #288 on: December 30, 2013, 06:32:44 PM »
GF,

Do you share the same beliefs as your mom and dad? Have you discussed the idea off a universe without a the "god" that you born and raised unto with your mom and dad or are just discusing it with us...  How did they react to the information of questioning and certain aspects of religion?

In other words, what do your parents say abouts this detailed discussion?

Or are you picking on this site with either knowing and/or unknowing reaction from your loved ones?

It's OK - a lot of us have been there.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:44:27 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #289 on: December 30, 2013, 07:00:52 PM »
albeto, I think that our perspectives are so far apart that there is nothing that I can say in response to your post that will be of any interest to you.

On the contrary, it is because our perspectives are so far apart that what you say is of interest.

I don't expect you will change my mind, and I hope you understand I am not trying to change your mind. I would be interested in your answers, but if you are short on time, or if you are feeling frustrated at being in the position of defending that which is admittedly irrational, I would be happy if you answered just one question: How do you define "sin"?