Author Topic: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock  (Read 11507 times)

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Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2013, 01:49:58 PM »
Here's the bottom line.. Religion has been the most vague, ambiguous, and emotional catalyst for people to try to understand the world/universe of our reality. When people let emotional reasons to guide their thinking and reasoning it very often is wrong and leads to irrational reasoning.


The only time and I mean the only time I've ever personally see Christians try to use seemingly rational logic and reasoning is discussions on this site. This site is the only time you'll see them try and discuss like seemingly rational adults scenarios of our cosmos like the details of the big bang, concede the notion of the power of a quasar, or even potentially bring up the seemingly impossible notion of a black hole and the densities of matter of a neutron star. They even finally concede that most of these thing actually exist with the BIG exception being the big bang was absolute beginning time and space and our universe as we've detected and measured using our "current" technology and knowledge. They always insert god as the initial creator.


But even if there were finally evidence of a god that can control and/or change natures laws of physics which currently have been in the driver's seat for approximately 13.8 billion years, how do make the jump to a god who created us specifically in his image, has an emotional attachment to us, answers prayers (only if they fall within the current natural laws of course... Hmmmm),  and last but certainly not least - died for our sins and rose from the grave with a separation of heaven and hell for our conscious ( soul concept to the religious) when we die!? This is not a story that should hold up with grown, educated and literate adults without more evidence and information given.


This is however a story that would probably stick with a child, an uneducated and illiterate adult with a limited view and access to knowledge of our world and further off, our universe outside their own eyes.


More importantly, the god that died for our sins story sticks with people for emotional reasons. Some people actually believe that this personified god gives them purpose in life and the ultimate reason to live. Like other atheists have said this strong emotional attachment to an ideology/belief does not make it true - its tough but grow up, get rid of the childhood blanky that feels so soft and cozy... None of us can see your blanky but we know you can talk about it with such great detail it must exist... Nope,  not the case, sorry Christians can't accept this logic and reasoning.


Here's my take on religion in the end. I will perfectly accept its strong emotional response with people who need it to live and be happy (let me repeat, this still doesn't make it real). What I will not accept which most of the atheists on this site because of religion are the following:


Creationism as a acceptable explanation of our universe - Not acceptable.  More importantly wanting this to be forced to be taught in science classrooms - leave it to churches and the parents as it does align with our current science. I always say "current" because I'm allowed as a non-believer to change my mind if evidence presents itself. We are neutral on religion as you've already accepted it as absolute truth and ready to see how many others you can get to buy the story. I've often wondered if Christians do this for ego, for money, self-satisfaction, test their own knowledge of the myths or if it's actually genuine...


Religion and the bible used as a battering ram between what's considered right, wrong, good, bad,  and most importantly the high pedestal of human ethics and morality in life.  None of this is dependent on religion and the belief of a god which has been clearly communicated to you here but apparently we're the one lying... When all else fails such as your story of creation don't make others be it non-believers or people of the wrong god feel bad and/guilty that we are born "sinners" as you all proclaim - not acceptable and is a lousy, dishonest way to achieve the goals of your game in life. Just because you're all in with your chips in life don't make others feel like they need to play to raise your own pot size sort of speak.


Also, to divide, separate and oppress other groups of people in society as the bible is clearly a catalyst for hate (it goes into this whole different interpretations and peoples inner existing bigotry and fear to use as the sword of attack and then the shield of defense as needed - you understand that already as your avatar implies you are ready to defend) is clearly not acceptable. However, Christians are always at the front lines to use god and the bible to be sure others do not have the same equal civil liberties and human rights - lame duck man, lame duck... They proclaim that their god is the judge in the end but yet still hold swords and shields suppressing the above mentioned. If you believe your story then let others live - god will protect you and it's his will with your life in the end right... You realize that religion has been always seemingly on the wrong side of history on pretty much everything its tried to explain or defend. In other words, I can notice a trend of people who are probably wrong about their truth and explanations when I see or hear it.


Lastly, You picked on Graybeard for having too many picked out facts and/or passages from various sources and yet you still don't understand why atheists are ultimately and genuinely  looking for the truth. Christians proclaim to know the truth on everything but really do not offer solidified and acceptable explanations and/or sources on reality. We are grown adults and are not kids who accept "because the bible is truth and I know god is real with all my heart" sort of speak - this is not acceptable nor should it ever be. We also sort a take it as a sin to pick on him.


In the end religion wants us to feel special, that we are unique in the universe and created by a designer.  I can tell you that we are all snowflakes in that we are different at the molecular level.  Whether or a designer is needed to up for discussion.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/photos/w031224a130.jpg
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 01:54:58 PM by DVZ3 »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #233 on: December 28, 2013, 02:10:44 PM »
Ok, then start using that knowledge in this forum.  Whipping out single verses out of context is not becoming nor intellectually honest.
First you have to show that I have done that, then you have to show that the context was vital to the understanding and that it altered the natural understanding – which you can’t.

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Graybeard, it is amazing how many different people I've had conversations with in this Forum over the past five years and they all seem to be able to psychoanalyze Christians after a few posts.
If there’s a pattern, look for the truth.

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The language of parts of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation is often symbolic.  The Book of Numbers is pretty straight-forward historical narrative.
I agree. Revelations is a classical example of schizophrenia at work. It has been interpreted is several ways by apologists but few are in full agreement as to the real meaning save those who agree it is the ramblings of a mad fundamentalist.

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Do you want me to give you more examples?
There is a demand for a bible in which all passages are marked “symbolic”, “allegorical” “bogus” or “true.” My morals prevent me from fleecing the gullible, so you may wish to make your fortune. (Never say I don’t give you anything.)

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You know as well as I that all the supernatural events mentioned in the Bible are "symbolic" but you believe some of them. You believe in a Resurrection! And yet you find it unreasonable that the earth could be supported on pillars! 
I never said I "find it unreasonable that the earth could be supported on pillars!"  You are putting words in my mouth.

Well, I actually said, “And yet you find it unreasonable that the earth could be supported on pillars!”

OK, give me the laugh I deserve: tell me you believe that the earth is supported by pillars…

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Now, if the TV repairman came round to your house and told you that the goblin that paints the pictures on your screen had died and that you needed a new goblin... what would you think of the repairman?

I would think that he trained under you.
I know you find some questions difficult to answer. It is hard when your faith requires you to believe things that you know cannot be so, isn’t it?

I suggest a little reading of "Augustine’s De Genesi ad litteram" - libri duodecimo.

“Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]


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Some atheists know where to find their prooftexts, but they really know little about the Bible.  You are a good example of that.
Well, if you can show me that I am wrong, feel free to tell me where I am wrong. As it is, I think that yours was a cut-and-paste answer that you keep handy for when you have no other argument.

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Oh, OK then: try this one:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

So, what about the stars falling from heaven? How's that work then?

Is He literally speaking of stars falling from the heaven, or will it be more like comets and meteorites, which appear to be stars falling from heaven?
He is literally talking of stars: really, He is. The Creator of the universe has absolutely no more idea of what is in it than the average peasant.

No. it won’t be comets, no, it won’t be meteorites. The Creator of the Universe would have known the difference, wouldn’t he?

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How can the sun be darkened?  Is it because of a veil of dust surrounding the earth (from all the meteorites landing on the earth), like some secular scientists proposed has happened in the past and killed off all the dinosaurs?
Please, I beg of you. Do not embarrass yourself further. I have already given you Augustine’s advice. If you will not listen to me, at least listen to him.

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Now, why it matter if this passage is literal or symbolic?
Boy! You really have a Masters in not reading, don’t you? Do you not understand that when the alleged creator of the universe speaks of the universe, he should be getting it right, shouldn’t he?

There are many people in the world who think they are Jesus. I recommend “The Three Christs of Ypsilanti” -> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Three-Christs-Ypsilanti-Review-Classics/dp/1590173848

They all think they are the son of god. I assume that in India, there are those who think they are gods too. Why should Iron Age Palestine be any different?

Looking back, you missed most of the points and made none yourself.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Doubt

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #234 on: December 28, 2013, 02:31:05 PM »
Unfortunately there are no Facebook pages titled "sin is a stupid concept".
I couldn't resist.  Please consider liking.   :laugh:  https://www.facebook.com/SinIsAStupidConcept

Offline Quesi

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #235 on: December 28, 2013, 02:46:39 PM »
Wait a minute!  Stop the presses!  I have some really good news!



Now I got this off of facebook, and not everything on facebook is true.  So I googled it.  And guess what!  This is what he said:

Through humility, soul searching, and prayerful contemplation we have gained a new understanding of certain dogmas. The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer. This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God. God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity. God seeks not to condemn but only to embrace. Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device. Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God” Pope Francis declared.

So sin is a non-issue, I guess.  Nothing to see here.  Move along. 

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #236 on: December 28, 2013, 03:25:50 PM »
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I was just wondering how low you were willing to lower your standards. If there was a god and I had a chance to ask him anything, I'd ask why it was that he made humans kinder than he is. And why he insisted that his level of concern for us be called "love". It bears no resemblance to the human definition of that word.

If he is real, justice isn't involved. Dictators aren't concerned with such trifles.

Lower my standards?  By putting God above humankind?  By recognizing for all the "good" talk about how nice humans are, I see how you , Ambassador Pony, lotanddaughters, ad nauseum and ad inifinitum. can treat others badly.  Yep, you all are doing a good job of convincing me how "good" you are.

The number of people that Ambassador Pony, lotanddaughters, Ambassador Pony and I have allowed to burn for an eternity is zero. That automatically makes each of us billions of times nicer than your god. Many billions of times. Hey, even you're nicer than he is. but don't feel too bad about it. It's easy. Just care.

How many universes  have you created?  How many humans that you did not allow "to burn for an eternity" did you create and give life to?

See, in order to compare yourself to God, you first need to be one.  Oh wait, that's the point of atheism - you can be your own god if you just keep denying the real God.

One sentient entity tortured or even uncomfortable for Eternity isn't worth an infinite number of sentient entities having an infinite orgasm.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #237 on: December 28, 2013, 06:25:21 PM »
God assigned Adam to represent all of mankind.  Adam sinned, representing that any man, if given the opportunity to be in Adam's place, would have done the same thing.  God did not assign an of my other ancestors to represent me.  I am responsible for being a sinner who, if I had been created first, would have disobeyed.  I am not responsible for any sins my ancestors committed.  I am not responsible for Adam's sin.

First of all, I would like to apologize. I admit, I have not spent as much time studying the many religious distortions of reality as you have. My almost manic insistence upon dealing with squarely with reality puts me at a distinct disadvantage when facing a foe who gets to make everything up. Mere facts are nothing against you when you insist that you have just trumped them with your fantasies and ill gotten justifications.

It is impossible for the two of us to have a civil conversation. My concern in life is actual solutions to real problems, while yours is prepping for heavens gate, and there is no way to meld the two mindsets without things getting ugly.

But have no fear. At some point in the future, someone like you will find justification to shoot someone like me, and your side will win. And you and your brethren, sporting outdate and wrong information, will get the power you so desire. The sad part is that I, not roasting in hell, will miss out on you not ending up in heaven. That's the part I'd love to see.

PP, I'm not making anything up.  I'm just responding with well-recognized Christian doctrines.  Now, if you want to blame other people for making them up and then blame me for parroting them, you go right ahead. 

As for shooting people, why would I want to take someone's life?  That would be disrespectful to the Creator Who made man in His image.  it's the people like you who have no real reason to value human life more than the life of a virus that scare me.

The Bible explains that people who are not regenerated will always think that the Bible is foolishness, so yes, we will never have that Vulcan mind-meld moment until God chooses to save you and put a new spirit in you that would receive His truth.  The fact that you can't see it hurts me, because I wish for no one to reject God.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #238 on: December 28, 2013, 06:30:12 PM »

While you masturbate to all the "good things" Christians have done,why don't you take some time to reflect on the evil things "Christians" have done?

 Dismissing bad things Christians do in the name of a god is easy,because you just have to state "they are not REALLY Christians".

 Can somebody fix the quote

12 Monkeys, all of your perversion cannot erase what has actually happened in history, so suck it.

gezusfreke, 12 monkeys clearly meant the verb "masturbate" metaphorically. As a person who should recognise these things, your response was beyond what was required.
GB Mod


[Targeted racism removed
GB Mod]
when I get past all the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, and many other atheists, then maybe I can begin to reflect on the evil things that evil people have done under the guise of "Christianity."

gezusfreke,
Racism is bad enough. Targeted racism is unforgivable. I have deleted your offensive remarks and hold a copy of your original post.
GB Mod


Get a life.  You are only making yourself miserable.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:12:37 AM by Graybeard »
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #239 on: December 28, 2013, 06:43:00 PM »
^^^ hmmmmmm....


You are being a bully now per usual of a Christian....you don't have any sympathy and/or empathy for the Indian people!? You can't be using your god shield with that much ignorance can you.... Or forget you obviously are... <insert the language you know your acting like here>.


Let's reword what you so arrogantly say to a lost generation and people's.

All of your delusion cannot erase what has actually happened in history, so suck..... I'll be the bigger man than to repeat your petty,childish retort of a bully...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 06:46:52 PM by DVZ3 »
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #240 on: December 28, 2013, 06:54:01 PM »
Here GF, I took the liberty of improving your avatar pic... I'm not picking on you for being a bullynas this is what you've already communicated with our posts.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/70340966/12-28-2013%206-51-37%20PM.jpg
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:00:14 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Quesi

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #241 on: December 28, 2013, 07:10:15 PM »
I rarely smite anyone, but I found this to be one of the most shocking and offensive statements that I have ever seen on this forum. 


[Targeted racist comment removed GB Mod] who settled here from Europe, ........

Perhaps you are really just misinformed.  But I suspect that you were making a targeted attack at 12 Monkeys, and I find it completely unacceptable. 

If you made an innocent mistake, and would like some resources about the annihilation of the vast majority of indigenous people of the Americas, I would be happy to share some resources.  I'm also going to look up a thread on Hitler from a while back that you might find enlightening. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:40:09 AM by Graybeard »

Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #242 on: December 28, 2013, 07:36:39 PM »
and when I get past all the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, and many other atheists, then maybe I can begin to reflect on the evil things that evil people have done under the guise of "Christianity."

Get a life.  You are only making yourself miserable.

Quesi addressed the other part.

Someone really needs to learn about these people Hitler and Mussolini were Catholic. Stalin wanted people worshipping the state. You're one of those, "They committed an atrocity, therefore atheist," bunch aren't you? Guess you'd better add Mohammud and Joshua to that list.

Offline Quesi

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #243 on: December 28, 2013, 07:45:45 PM »
^^^ Exactly. 

Here is a thread a posted a while back. 

I am just so sick of hearing theists pull this "Hitler was an atheist" stuff. 

Hitler was a Christian so he is now in heaven, thanks to Jesus taking the blame for him. (If you believe your bible.)

Hitler despised Christianity.
The swastika is an old satanic symbol. Hitler was following demons.

But you are right if he accepted Christ, he will be in Heaven. Not likely though considering he committed suicide.

Ummm.  Hitler's anti-Semitism was deeply rooted in his Christianity.  From his earliest speeches:

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . . [1]

To Mein Kampf:

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”

The influence of Christianity is clear. 




 1.  Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #244 on: December 28, 2013, 07:49:18 PM »
The fact that you can't see it hurts me, because I wish for no one to reject God.

Fear not. I'm not rejecting god. He doesn't exist, so I don't have to.

Hence I have lots of time to do more productive things.

As for American Indians doing some scalping, I'm pretty sure that when the Chinese land on the west coast and start taking over America, killing us indiscriminately, rounding others of us up and banishing us to the least habitable parts of the country, putting bounties on our heads, lying to us, breaking treaties, deliberately infecting us with disease, considering us less than human and stealing everything we ever had as they destroy our culture, you'll be sending them thank you cards and stuff.

Because you're a christian, and that's exactly what Jesus would do too.



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #245 on: December 28, 2013, 09:14:43 PM »
The fact that you can't see it hurts me, because I wish for no one to reject God.

Fear not. I'm not rejecting god. He doesn't exist, so I don't have to.

This part is ok.  You express your opinion about a subject of discussion and it is good debate.

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Hence I have lots of time to do more productive things.[/quote]

This part is again your opinion, related to the subject of the discussion, again ok in debate.

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As for American Indians doing some scalping, I'm pretty sure that when the Chinese land on the west coast and start taking over America, killing us indiscriminately, rounding others of us up and banishing us to the least habitable parts of the country, putting bounties on our heads, lying to us, breaking treaties, deliberately infecting us with disease, considering us less than human and stealing everything we ever had as they destroy our culture, you'll be sending them thank you cards and stuff.

Because you're a christian, and that's exactly what Jesus would do too.

This is just attacking a person instead of giving any kind of philosophical or rational response to a subject of discussion.  It doesn't help the conversation, but then again you already expressed a closed mind towards having a civil conversation with me.

Your analogy of Chinese behaving like some early Americans is obviously due to your extended stay on Fantasy Island.  Why would I be grateful for this kind of treatment of anyone?  Oh wait, it is because you stereotype all Christians this way and your stereotype is based on some imperfect, maybe even evil, people who hid behind the name of "Christian."

Are all Muslims evil and do all Muslims want to kill Americans because a few Muslims hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings, killing over 3,000 people in the process?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #246 on: December 28, 2013, 10:15:48 PM »
The fact that you can't see it hurts me, because I wish for no one to reject God.

Fear not. I'm not rejecting god. He doesn't exist, so I don't have to.

This part is ok.  You express your opinion about a subject of discussion and it is good debate.

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Hence I have lots of time to do more productive things.

This part is again your opinion, related to the subject of the discussion, again ok in debate.

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As for American Indians doing some scalping, I'm pretty sure that when the Chinese land on the west coast and start taking over America, killing us indiscriminately, rounding others of us up and banishing us to the least habitable parts of the country, putting bounties on our heads, lying to us, breaking treaties, deliberately infecting us with disease, considering us less than human and stealing everything we ever had as they destroy our culture, you'll be sending them thank you cards and stuff.

Because you're a christian, and that's exactly what Jesus would do too.

This is just attacking a person instead of giving any kind of philosophical or rational response to a subject of discussion.  It doesn't help the conversation, but then again you already expressed a closed mind towards having a civil conversation with me.

Your analogy of Chinese behaving like some early Americans is obviously due to your extended stay on Fantasy Island.  Why would I be grateful for this kind of treatment of anyone?  Oh wait, it is because you stereotype all Christians this way and your stereotype is based on some imperfect, maybe even evil, people who hid behind the name of "Christian."

Are all Muslims evil and do all Muslims want to kill Americans because a few Muslims hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings, killing over 3,000 people in the process?


My point, which I guess I have to spell out, was that Indians killing whites who were taking over their country and destroying their entire culture, is neither mysterious or misguided. Had they won, they could have written the history and made us sound bad. We won, we wrote the history, they sound bad.

They weren't. We were.

So if you are upset at the Indians for killing whites and not upset and whites for killing, dislocating, separating and culturally all but destroying an entire continent worth of people, your christianity is showing a bit too much.

You use the term "Fantasy Land" a bit too much. Self projecting, are we?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #247 on: December 29, 2013, 04:56:53 AM »
God assigned Adam to represent all of mankind.  Adam sinned, representing that any man, if given the opportunity to be in Adam's place, would have done the same thing. 

I asked you this before and do not recall getting an answer, but I'm sure it got lost in the many posts you get.

Your point here seems to be that, whichever human had represented mankind, they would al, without exception, have failed - therefore, Adam's failure can stand as representative of every ma's failure.

Have I adequately summarised your position, first of all?

Assuming I have, the question then follows: if every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

And if that is the case, whose "fault" is it?  If I create something that has no chance at all of succeeding at something, is it not the case that the fault lies with the creator?

How can you blame something for an inevitable failure that is the result of the way it was created?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #248 on: December 29, 2013, 05:09:40 AM »
If every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

The very existence of the test itself makes the whole thing suspect.  If one human had passed, so what?  Another would probably have failed, and we'd still be saddled with this pseudo-inheritance called "Original Sin." Apparently this omniscient god wanted to herd its creation in one particular direction, denying them the ability to work off their "sin" with good works (but condemning them for eternity for their not-so-good works -- Essentially acting as a cosmic loan shark).

And to what purpose?  In essence, to compel them to see themselves as evil, and to worship a human sacrifice.

The whole thing would be laughable except for the fact that millions of people believe it, and that this belief has caused so much unnecessary suffering on this planet.  It is a tragedy of the highest order, and an utter disgrace to any gods there may be.

And, O Universe, if I had the power to cause this whole house of bloodstained cards to come crashing down at My feet right here and right now, I'd do it.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #249 on: December 29, 2013, 08:28:58 AM »
^^^ Exactly. 

Here is a thread a posted a while back. 

I am just so sick of hearing theists pull this "Hitler was an atheist" stuff. 


Ummm.  Hitler's anti-Semitism was deeply rooted in his Christianity.  From his earliest speeches:

“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . . [1]

To Mein Kampf:

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”


 1.  Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262

You beat me to it. If the theist wants to bring up Stalin is one thing, even though it is just the bad company fallacy. And all the problems with Stalinism/Statism are  from it being too similar to a religion.

However, when Hitler's Christianity is so very very very well documented   the constant meme of "Hitler was an Atheist" being put forwarded here is just demonstration that most theists just like to deny reality when it doesn't conform to what they want it to be.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #250 on: December 29, 2013, 12:30:53 PM »
Stalin was trained as a priest. He changed his worldview but kept the ideological style of thinking.

Religious icons of Stalin tell you all you need to know.



« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:45:38 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #251 on: December 29, 2013, 12:49:31 PM »
If every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

The very existence of the test itself makes the whole thing suspect.  If one human had passed, so what?  Another would probably have failed, and we'd still be saddled with this pseudo-inheritance called "Original Sin." Apparently this omniscient god wanted to herd its creation in one particular direction, denying them the ability to work off their "sin" with good works (but condemning them for eternity for their not-so-good works -- Essentially acting as a cosmic loan shark).


The part that gets me is that christians seem to think that the only possible explanation of "evil" is the fall. That without it, humans would be the nicest folks you ever met. They don't want to acknowledge that there may be other factors at play.

Add to that the importance of sin as a qualifier. "Hey, you, you're a sinner, so you get to join us." They don't have to check police records or anything. We're all automatically bad, and that fits well into their recruitment program. They don't have to vet any of us. They've created a place where they can make safe assumptions about how horrible each of us are.

And they don't realize the harm it does. Nor do they give any thought to the confusion is causes. When I started going to church at about age 5, I assumed there was a god because I'd been told there was by adults. Fine. Then I get to church and they started telling me that I was a sinner. The confused the heck out of me because I was a sweet little kid. They talked of murder and mayhem, but then told me that stealing a cookie out of the cookie jar (the height of my crime career at that age) was the same as killing in the eyes of god. That made no more sense then than it does now.

Other former theists have discussed how terrified they felt as little kids because they were "sinners". So some children get confused (me, in a mildly religious atmosphere), while others in more oppressive homes get the crap scared out of them daily with hell threats, this is okay with christians. What a bunch of jerks. That is child abuse. Especially the latter.

People who gobble down on Jesus and then tell me I'm immoral don't get a whole lot of respect from me anyway. Toss in artificial standards purported to be important truths, and you end up with some mighty strange folks. And many of them are dangerous too.
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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #252 on: December 29, 2013, 03:21:23 PM »
Gf while history is written by the victorious it does not change FACT,you can point to all the dictators you wish. The fact they killed thousands,can you prove. Atheism as the reason,or were they just dictators killing all opposed to remain in power?

 As for the FACT that Christians have killed millions around the world,history can't be changed. This is where you just clearly would state "no really Christian" and dismiss it

 As for the personal attack,I am a big boy GF,I can handle it. It just shows you as not a real"Christian"
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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #253 on: December 29, 2013, 05:33:36 PM »
God assigned Adam to represent all of mankind.  Adam sinned, representing that any man, if given the opportunity to be in Adam's place, would have done the same thing. 

I asked you this before and do not recall getting an answer, but I'm sure it got lost in the many posts you get.

Your point here seems to be that, whichever human had represented mankind, they would al, without exception, have failed - therefore, Adam's failure can stand as representative of every ma's failure.

Have I adequately summarised your position, first of all?

Yes.

Quote
Assuming I have, the question then follows: if every human, without exception, would have failed at this test, does that not mean that your god created a test that was impossible to pass, and we are being judged against something impossible for us to have succeeded at?

And if that is the case, whose "fault" is it?  If I create something that has no chance at all of succeeding at something, is it not the case that the fault lies with the creator?

How can you blame something for an inevitable failure that is the result of the way it was created?

Anfauglir, you have summed it up well. God created man with the ability to fail and man eagerly makes the choice to fail.  I can't explain the paradox of God being sovereign and fore-ordaining all things yet is not the author of sin, and man being held responsible for his choices to sin, but I do believe it.  No, it is not rational.  It is philosophical and spiritual, which I understand doesn't mean anything to non-theists.  But that is my belief which I am only sharing with you because you asked.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #254 on: December 29, 2013, 05:52:28 PM »
Anfauglir, you have summed it up well. God created man with the ability to fail and man eagerly makes the choice to fail.  I can't explain the paradox of God being sovereign and fore-ordaining all things yet is not the author of sin, and man being held responsible for his choices to sin, but I do believe it.  No, it is not rational.  It is philosophical and spiritual, which I understand doesn't mean anything to non-theists.  But that is my belief which I am only sharing with you because you asked.

Just out of curiosity, what other areas of knowledge would you be fine with identifying an impossible paradox and yet shrug your shoulders and stop thinking about it? Would you board the first airplane if the Wright Brothers said they couldn't explain the mechanics of flight, they know it's not rational, but it's philosophical and spiritual. Would you trust the enough to get in? What about a surgeon for you or a loved one? If they admitted that they really didn't know what they were doing, they would just open up your body and trust things would work out, would you use their services? Why do you employ a rational skepticism against most other areas of knowledge, but when it comes to faith, you simply accept it without seeking to find the reasons the explanations don't make sense?

I mean, I get it. I did this myself for many years, but my reasons might not be similar to yours. If you don't mind my asking, that is.


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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #255 on: December 29, 2013, 06:08:37 PM »
Anfauglir, you have summed it up well. God created man with the ability to fail and man eagerly makes the choice to fail.  I can't explain the paradox of God being sovereign and fore-ordaining all things yet is not the author of sin, and man being held responsible for his choices to sin, but I do believe it.  No, it is not rational.  It is philosophical and spiritual, which I understand doesn't mean anything to non-theists.  But that is my belief which I am only sharing with you because you asked.

Just out of curiosity, what other areas of knowledge would you be fine with identifying an impossible paradox and yet shrug your shoulders and stop thinking about it?

I did not use the word "impossible." But I am ok with paradoxes.  According to everyone's favorite academic source, there's a long list of paradoxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

Interesting how if it is a scientific paradox that it is a sign of advance:  http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/10/02/scientific-paradoxes-are-omens-of-advance/


Quote
Would you board the first airplane if the Wright Brothers said they couldn't explain the mechanics of flight, they know it's not rational, but it's philosophical and spiritual. Would you trust the enough to get in? What about a surgeon for you or a loved one? If they admitted that they really didn't know what they were doing, they would just open up your body and trust things would work out, would you use their services? Why do you employ a rational skepticism against most other areas of knowledge, but when it comes to faith, you simply accept it without seeking to find the reasons the explanations don't make sense?

Flight and surgery are not philosophical nor spiritual, but I would not have to necessarily know all the laws of physics to step into an airplane and take a ride.  Nor do I have to know all about biochemistry, physiology, and other medical stuff in order to let a doctor treat me.  I don't even have to know how electricity works in order to turn on my Mac. 


Quote
I mean, I get it. I did this myself for many years, but my reasons might not be similar to yours. If you don't mind my asking, that is.

I'm not sure what you got before that you don't get now.  Would you care to elaborate?

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #256 on: December 29, 2013, 06:47:10 PM »
I did not use the word "impossible." But I am ok with paradoxes.  According to everyone's favorite academic source, there's a long list of paradoxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

Which of these ideas are believed to be truth based on faith? The ideas accepted as true in the bible that are accepted by faith include ideas such as "sin." There is no evidence for this, and in fact, you Christians can't even agree on a definition of what "sin" is.  Nevertheless, it's accepted as being an accurate explanation of what we observe (human behavior). There exists no support for this explanation, no way to test that support, no information to draw on at all. Before the paradox even comes up, this belief is assumed to be credible. This is not so with the list of paradoxes from wiki you shared.

Interesting how if it is a scientific paradox that it is a sign of advance:  http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/10/02/scientific-paradoxes-are-omens-of-advance/

It's only interesting if you take the catchy title at face value and don't read the blog article.

Flight and surgery are not philosophical nor spiritual, but I would not have to necessarily know all the laws of physics to step into an airplane and take a ride.  Nor do I have to know all about biochemistry, physiology, and other medical stuff in order to let a doctor treat me.  I don't even have to know how electricity works in order to turn on my Mac. 

Okay, so you take these ideas to be true for two reasons, right? The first is that you've experienced something related to these. You've flown in, or have watched airplanes fly in the sky. The other is that you trust those who claim to know what they're doing, really do know what they're doing. That appeal to authority is easily confirmed, though. All you have to do is learn a little about physics (or biology, chemistry, physiology, electronics, etc), to be relatively satisfied with their claims. Besides, there exist entire communities that function to make sure these claims are valid before the general public access their services.

This doesn't exist with religion, and you aren't the first to not notice (or not care). All the confirmation needed is an explanation for a personal experience that uses expected vocabulary ("Christianese," like "sin"). This explanation doesn't require much careful analysis at all, and at some point, careful analysis is dangerous. For some people this point is close to the argument of bible literacy (including a 6000 year old universe). For others this point is close to the argument that Jesus is love, and that's all the miracle we need. At some point, though, the Christian must accept something as true by virtue of faith, not by virtue of knowledge.

I'm not sure what you got before that you don't get now.  Would you care to elaborate?

The faith shields. I started to question the validity of the claims that loosing my faith would be emotionally detrimental, that I would feel lost or hopeless without it.


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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #257 on: December 29, 2013, 06:59:48 PM »
I did not use the word "impossible." But I am ok with paradoxes.  According to everyone's favorite academic source, there's a long list of paradoxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

Which of these ideas are believed to be truth based on faith? The ideas accepted as true in the bible that are accepted by faith include ideas such as "sin." There is no evidence for this, and in fact, you Christians can't even agree on a definition of what "sin" is.  Nevertheless, it's accepted as being an accurate explanation of what we observe (human behavior). There exists no support for this explanation, no way to test that support, no information to draw on at all. Before the paradox even comes up, this belief is assumed to be credible. This is not so with the list of paradoxes from wiki you shared.


albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

Quote
Interesting how if it is a scientific paradox that it is a sign of advance:  http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/10/02/scientific-paradoxes-are-omens-of-advance/

It's only interesting if you take the catchy title at face value and don't read the blog article.
Guilty.

Quote
Flight and surgery are not philosophical nor spiritual, but I would not have to necessarily know all the laws of physics to step into an airplane and take a ride.  Nor do I have to know all about biochemistry, physiology, and other medical stuff in order to let a doctor treat me.  I don't even have to know how electricity works in order to turn on my Mac. 

Okay, so you take these ideas to be true for two reasons, right? The first is that you've experienced something related to these. You've flown in, or have watched airplanes fly in the sky. The other is that you trust those who claim to know what they're doing, really do know what they're doing. That appeal to authority is easily confirmed, though. All you have to do is learn a little about physics (or biology, chemistry, physiology, electronics, etc), to be relatively satisfied with their claims. Besides, there exist entire communities that function to make sure these claims are valid before the general public access their services.

This doesn't exist with religion, and you aren't the first to not notice (or not care). All the confirmation needed is an explanation for a personal experience that uses expected vocabulary ("Christianese," like "sin"). This explanation doesn't require much careful analysis at all, and at some point, careful analysis is dangerous. For some people this point is close to the argument of bible literacy (including a 6000 year old universe). For others this point is close to the argument that Jesus is love, and that's all the miracle we need. At some point, though, the Christian must accept something as true by virtue of faith, not by virtue of knowledge.

I see evidence that God exists in nature.  I see evidence that God exists when I see someone change their whole life and way of thinking.  There are evidences, but some people will not give the evidence fair analysis.

And you are very correct, there comes a point where "the Christian must accept something as true by virtue of faith, not by virtue of knowledge." In a way, it is a lot like love.  When you give your love to someone like a spouse, you really don't know everything about that person that can be known, but you've seen enough to take the risk.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #258 on: December 29, 2013, 07:42:16 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

Are you suggesting "sin" can be defined, in part at least, as making someone feel bad? Would this include making someone feel bad under all circumstances, or just certain ones? Which ones, and how is that determined? How would you propose to uncover the evidence for it? Is the evidence your feelings?  Do other Christians agree and accept this portion of identifying "sin"?

Obviously I don't expect an answer to each question (or any), but I offer them to show you what critical thinking looks like when applied against something that you don't believe "just because." I don't believe "sin" exists "just because" people tell me. I don't believe it exists just because you've found yourself on the receiving end of impatience and a refusal to coddle your egoistic expectations. I do know how it feels to be on the underside of a forum dog-pile, but I could explain the object of this feeling with objective information, information that can be explored by anyone. "Sin" cannot offer that, regardless of how you feel at any given time.

Unless I am mistaken, and I hope you'll correct me if I am, the concept of "sin" is really a matter of articulating when one person feels violated in some way, be it emotionally, physically, etc. For this reason "sin" cannot be defined. It is purely subjective, dependent upon the individual's knowledge and personal experiences.

I see evidence that God exists in nature.  I see evidence that God exists when I see someone change their whole life and way of thinking.  There are evidences, but some people will not give the evidence fair analysis.

I propose that you have accepted an explanation of nature against a backdrop of religious belief. For that reason, you may see God existing in a beautiful morning scene that covers the land in a peaceful, clean blanket of snow. For the hundreds of homeless women and children sleeping in the doorways of urban buildings (because shelters are not safe), that same scene is more logically explained as a lack of God's existence, or a capricious, malevolent, heartless God maybe. So is nature (in this case meteorological events) evidence for God? Is it evidence for a Good God? Or is it your personal interpretation based on the relative safety and security of enjoying a peaceful scene from the comfort of a home with solid walls and a strong roof?

The idea that God can be seen in people who change their whole lives is again problematic when this claim is not accepted "just because," but is analyzed. You would find, if you were interested in finding out, that objective research shows the functional differences between theists and atheists are not quite what theists might expect. You also would have to explain why this applies to non-christian religions.

And you are very correct, there comes a point where "the Christian must accept something as true by virtue of faith, not by virtue of knowledge." In a way, it is a lot like love.  When you give your love to someone like a spouse, you really don't know everything about that person that can be known, but you've seen enough to take the risk.

This acceptance is what makes the faithful, well... faithful. That's what faith is - belief in absence of evidence. Loving a person doesn't operate in the same way, however, so your analogy doesn't work when (I'm sorry) we look at it skeptically and analyze the claims, examine the details.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #259 on: December 29, 2013, 08:09:39 PM »
albeto, for all the denial of sin I've seen in this forum, I see much more evidence here to substantiate that sin exists.  Disagreeing with someone isn't sin, but some of the very angry and hateful remarks (from both sides of the issue) are.

Are you suggesting "sin" can be defined, in part at least, as making someone feel bad? Would this include making someone feel bad under all circumstances, or just certain ones? Which ones, and how is that determined? How would you propose to uncover the evidence for it? Is the evidence your feelings?  Do other Christians agree and accept this portion of identifying "sin"?

We can identify the symptoms that are caused by the disease.  The disease is "sin" and the symptoms are "sins". But this view is based on objective, moral truth.  If you don't believe that there is objective moral truth but instead believe that truth is relative, then it probably won't be productive to continue the discussion.

But it is not defined by "making someone feel bad."  If you have a huge zit on your face, and you ask me if you look ok before you go out into public, and I am truthful with you and say "albeto, you have a big zit on your face," I would actually be doing something good for you but it could hurt your feelings.  Critical thinking would lead you to see that sin cannot be defined by making someone feel bad.


Quote
Obviously I don't expect an answer to each question (or any), but I offer them to show you what critical thinking looks like when applied against something that you don't believe "just because." I don't believe "sin" exists "just because" people tell me. I don't believe it exists just because you've found yourself on the receiving end of impatience and a refusal to coddle your egoistic expectations. I do know how it feels to be on the underside of a forum dog-pile, but I could explain the object of this feeling with objective information, information that can be explored by anyone. "Sin" cannot offer that, regardless of how you feel at any given time.

Unless I am mistaken, and I hope you'll correct me if I am, the concept of "sin" is really a matter of articulating when one person feels violated in some way, be it emotionally, physically, etc. For this reason "sin" cannot be defined. It is purely subjective, dependent upon the individual's knowledge and personal experiences.

Ok, you are mistaken, the Christian concept of "sin" is not "really a matter of articulating when one person feels violated in some way, be it emotionally, physically, etc."  There is the disease of sin, which infects every human and causes them to be tainted with being less than they could be.  The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that someone is as evil and mean as they could be but rather that their reason and intellect is not perfect.  The nature of man rebels against God (which is evident in this forum).  Ultimately, whatever one does to harm someone else is not only a sin against that person but also a sin against God, the one who created that person and to whom that person belongs. 

Quote
I see evidence that God exists in nature.  I see evidence that God exists when I see someone change their whole life and way of thinking.  There are evidences, but some people will not give the evidence fair analysis.

I propose that you have accepted an explanation of nature against a backdrop of religious belief. For that reason, you may see God existing in a beautiful morning scene that covers the land in a peaceful, clean blanket of snow. For the hundreds of homeless women and children sleeping in the doorways of urban buildings (because shelters are not safe), that same scene is more logically explained as a lack of God's existence, or a capricious, malevolent, heartless God maybe. So is nature (in this case meteorological events) evidence for God? Is it evidence for a Good God? Or is it your personal interpretation based on the relative safety and security of enjoying a peaceful scene from the comfort of a home with solid walls and a strong roof?

The homeless are evidences of man's sin, not evidence of a lack of God's existence nor of a capricious, malevolent, heartless God. I've volunteered at several homeless shelters for the past couple of years.  Most of the people in the ones I help with made bad choices - usually drugs.  A few are there because someone in their life made bad choices - abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc.  Humans are not entitled to any blessings, so I'm not sure why people seem to think that just because God allows some to suffer more than others that He is unjust. When we look upon others who suffer and it causes something in us to say "This is not right!", then that is evidence that instilled in mankind is the absolute moral truth of what is wrong and what is right, which leads one to the concept of sin and righteousness.

Quote
The idea that God can be seen in people who change their whole lives is again problematic when this claim is not accepted "just because," but is analyzed. You would find, if you were interested in finding out, that objective research shows the functional differences between theists and atheists are not quite what theists might expect. You also would have to explain why this applies to non-christian religions.

You would just have to know the people that I am talking about. 

Quote
And you are very correct, there comes a point where "the Christian must accept something as true by virtue of faith, not by virtue of knowledge." In a way, it is a lot like love.  When you give your love to someone like a spouse, you really don't know everything about that person that can be known, but you've seen enough to take the risk.

This acceptance is what makes the faithful, well... faithful. That's what faith is - belief in absence of evidence. Loving a person doesn't operate in the same way, however, so your analogy doesn't work when (I'm sorry) we look at it skeptically and analyze the claims, examine the details.

Giving your love is always on faith.  You give with the faith that it will be received and reciprocated.  Often people find out more about the ones they love after they have already fallen in love.  Most Christians know very little theology when they come to Christ.  They know they are sinners who need forgiving and that Jesus died for them so that they could be forgiven.  Beyond that, they usually can't tell you very much, but they have all the information they need to make a good choice.

Peace and grace.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #260 on: December 29, 2013, 08:16:59 PM »
It's like an atheist alcoholics only higher power is.....well..... alcohol  Theists need a belief system that bases everything on faith alone, they only have evidence based on a "spiritual" experience. While they can dismiss  any other religions similar experience as an illusion,their spiritual experience is always true.....even if it lacks evidence based on the real world
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)