Author Topic: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock  (Read 13577 times)

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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2013, 11:39:48 PM »
I would have to disagree. I would say that the Bible and many archaeological findings clearly point to Yahweh not always being the only god.

There is a difference between an idol and a supernatural being.  The Bible is clear that Yahweh is the only supernatural being.  All others are false idols.

All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his companions shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are only human. Let them all assemble, let them stand forth. They shall be terrified; they shall be put to shame together.
The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?” (Isaiah 44:9-20, ESV)

Quote
Long story short:

Societies that don't work as a team will not survive as well as societies that do.

Morality is like beauty. There are blatant extremes that most people will agree upon. The less extreme the difference, the harder it is to choose between two objects or actions.


So where does the notion of societal good/herd mentality come from?  Why not every man for himself?


A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2013, 11:43:06 PM »


Bolded Italicized: What does that even mean? 90+ Billion light years across, to have 1% of a planet, 1/1000000th the size of the star it orbits which looks like a dot when viewed from the inner region of the Oort cloud, One star of hundreds of millions of stars in this galaxy alone out of billions and billions to "fine tune" this speck for human life? How incredibly wastefully inefficient for an All-Powerful and Perfect god.

Or how incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur to those He made in His likeness.


gzusfreke, 14 lines of Psalm and one line of bare commentary could be classed as preaching, which as you know is against forum rules. (Psalm 19:1-6, ESV)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 02:43:31 AM by Anfauglir »
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2013, 11:47:26 PM »
GF Don't you think the herd/survival issue could come from experience ? Living together is not really the same as it once was. Sure we all live in close proximity,in cities,neighborhoods,but we don't really have communal living that once helped us survive over long periods,before modern humanity.
 
 We once lived communally as a survival mechanism,not because any god wanted it that way
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2013, 11:55:47 PM »
Or how incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur to those He made in His likeness.

Yeah, too bad that God didn't know how he made the Earth and the "Heavens." See, stars aren't itty-bitty shiny rocks hammered into the solid brass skydome aka firmament. Plus, until very recently, most of what we can view now wasn't known to exist. You see, you can't see very much (comparibly) with the naked eye. If the bible were true about the age of the Earth, the farthest we'd be able to see is approx 7,000 light years. This is not the case.

Offline Doubt

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2013, 12:02:02 AM »
I am so glad you started this thread and I couldn't agree more.

This topic hits home for me as a gay man who constantly hears the term "sin" thrown around nilly-willy in culture-war types of debates:

"Hate the sin, love the sinner."

"Don't judge me because I sin differently than you."

Fuck that.

I want to cry and pull my hair out every time I see any variation of this.

So thank you and I think we need to start a movement.  Unfortunately there are no Facebook pages titled "sin is a stupid concept".

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2013, 12:21:52 AM »
I would have to disagree. I would say that the Bible and many archaeological findings clearly point to Yahweh not always being the only god.

There is a difference between an idol and a supernatural being.  The Bible is clear that Yahweh is the only supernatural being.  All others are false idols.


This is just "the tip of the iceberg":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntillet_Ajrud




I have undoubtedly noticed that the religious have an extreme bias against anything that undermines their faith.

You know, I wish there was a loving God, who, in the End, makes everything alright. Who wouldn't? The problem is, when I honestly survey my surroundings, my circumstance doesn't point to that conclusion, no matter how enticing it may be.

I know this:

I don't even remember being born, let alone remember any existence I might have had before I was born. Honestly, I don't know where I'm going when I die. Unfortunately, all I have at my disposal to measure against is my current and only perceived existence. I was born in a world that is littered with bullshitters. And, as far as I can tell, the more backward the society, the more prevalent the bullshit. Hence, the Ancient World has more than its share of tall tales.

The reality is, you might not possess the ability to honestly survey your circumstance. From my experience, no matter how solid an argument you bring to a debate, some people just can't be shaken. We're gonna find out. Like I said, I was around twenty years old when I became a non-believer. If you ask me, that's way too old to be believing in Aesop's-fable-shit. But, at least I was one of those people who had the ability to break free from childhood indoctrination. That's me looking at the "bright side". When I encounter a situation that I have absolutely no control over, I try to look at the "bright side". Looking at the "bright side" is a mild form of self-delusion. It helps me get through the day. And, like I said, I only employ that frame of mind when I absolutely have no control over a certain situation, like I can't go back in time and move my freedom from indoctrination back ten years. But, what I no longer do, is move forward and make important life-decisions in a deluded state of mind.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2013, 02:45:09 AM »
One star of hundreds of millions of stars in this galaxy alone out of billions and billions to "fine tune" this speck for human life? How incredibly wastefully inefficient for an All-Powerful and Perfect god.

Or how incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur to those He made in His likeness.

So, "showing off", is what you are saying here?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2013, 07:11:39 PM »

So, "showing off", is what you are saying here?

What's that saying about braggarts/showoffs overcompensating for something they're lacking?

Such a thing would be beneath a 'perfect' God. It's like bragging that you stepped on an ant.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2013, 08:20:29 PM »

Quote
gzusfreke, 14 lines of Psalm and one line of bare commentary could be classed as preaching, which as you know is against forum rules.

or just exposition of my statement by using my source text for my worldview.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2013, 08:24:35 PM »
GF Don't you think the herd/survival issue could come from experience ? Living together is not really the same as it once was. Sure we all live in close proximity,in cities,neighborhoods,but we don't really have communal living that once helped us survive over long periods,before modern humanity.
 
 We once lived communally as a survival mechanism,not because any god wanted it that way

12 Monkeys, even if I agree that what you said above could be possible, it still comes back to "How did the concept of good (communal living) and evil (every man for himself) come into being?"  The fact that we once lived in communities and now live in societies doesn't answer the question of where the concepts of good and evil come from.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2013, 08:28:56 PM »

Yeah, too bad that God didn't know how he made the Earth and the "Heavens." See, stars aren't itty-bitty shiny rocks hammered into the solid brass skydome aka firmament. Plus, until very recently, most of what we can view now wasn't known to exist. You see, you can't see very much (comparibly) with the naked eye. If the bible were true about the age of the Earth, the farthest we'd be able to see is approx 7,000 light years. This is not the case.

Yet in Genesis 15:5, the Bible speaks of the stars being too numerous to count. Not bad for a superstitious text written by nomadic herders approximately 4,000 years ago.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2013, 08:30:23 PM »
So thank you and I think we need to start a movement.  Unfortunately there are no Facebook pages titled "sin is a stupid concept".

So you don't believe there is any sin? What is murder and rape - an inconvenience?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2013, 08:33:48 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntillet_Ajrud

lot, wikipedia is really not recognized by even many atheists as a "scholarly source." A few years ago the really hardcore atheists like Hal, Vynn, and a few others would have objected to quoting it as vehemently as atheists object to saying "The Bible says . . ."
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2013, 08:37:17 PM »
So, "showing off", is what you are saying here?

If that's how you want to put it.

Question: If Biblegod is real and everything the Bible claims about Him is true, do you think that "showing off" is really the appropriate description of Him displaying His creativity? I see it more of Him expressing His creativity in a way that should, but does' always, invoke wonder and amazement.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2013, 08:47:48 PM »
GF Don't you think the herd/survival issue could come from experience ? Living together is not really the same as it once was. Sure we all live in close proximity,in cities,neighborhoods,but we don't really have communal living that once helped us survive over long periods,before modern humanity.
 
 We once lived communally as a survival mechanism,not because any god wanted it that way

12 Monkeys, even if I agree that what you said above could be possible, it still comes back to "How did the concept of good (communal living) and evil (every man for himself) come into being?"  The fact that we once lived in communities and now live in societies doesn't answer the question of where the concepts of good and evil come from.
there were many societies that had communal living(good as you put it) without a bible god.  The way it is now is less communal so is it more evil (evil is how you put it)?

 As an aboriginal we lived communally without a god,when the "Christians" arrived they labelled our communal potlatch system (sharing of wealth and food stock) as a heathen behaviour. The view these Christans had was hardly communal(good) and was more every man for himself(evil)

 The potlatch was outlawed,those who still used it,thrown in jail. The kids were then kidnapped and put in colonization camps.  How do you explain the actions of Christians as anything but evil?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2013, 09:06:55 PM »
12 Monkeys, even if I agree that what you said above could be possible, it still comes back to "How did the concept of good (communal living) and evil (every man for himself) come into being?"  The fact that we once lived in communities and now live in societies doesn't answer the question of where the concepts of good and evil come from.

The term "sin" has two meanings: 1) doing something wrong and 2) irking god in the process. Toss in the concept of "evil", which is offered up as a noun, a thing, that exists in this world and that has measurable amounts of say in how people behave, and christians give us a one-two punch in the gut as they misrepresent what is actually going on.

There is right and wrong. Not good and evil. There is wrong, not sin. Christians are making human problems worse by pretending that the problem is more complex than it really is.

I could have robbed a bank today. I guess. I'd need a gun and motivation and stuff, but in theory I could have done it. There are no physical controls in my life that would have prevented me from trying to get a couple extra thousand bucks just before Christmas or something. But I am one of the many that agree that robbing banks is wrong.

If I did rob a bank and get away, I would have accomplished the following: a) received ill-gotten gains, b)probably have scared the crap out of at least one teller, c) inconvenienced the police, who already have enough to do, d) inconvenienced a reporter or two who would feel somewhat obliged to write up/do a TV segment on the robbery, e) made myself a wanted man, who would continue to inconvenience the police until I got caught and f) then cost the taxpayers more money via the court process and my incarceration.

By definition, my actions would qualify as "bad", because there was no benefit to anyone but me, if having an extra grand while being hunted by the local police and the FBI is considered a pleasant by-product. Most of us recognize that our society cannot exist by depending on the forced reallocation of resources. We can't get bank employees to provide needed services if they think they will be subject to guns in their face every day at work. We can't afford to get potholes filled if all our police money goes towards catching hundreds of bank robbers a day. So again, society says robbing banks is bad.

I'm not talking evil here. Because the religious have co-opted the term and if I try to use it, the two meanings it has get mixed up. And the term "sin" adds nothing to the table. It is another word for bad that adds the god thing, and that's useless.

So even though I am not one of them thar' god believers, I have no trouble, in this case or most any other that you can think of, in doing the right thing. I'm not even tempted to rob a bank, because I wouldn't feel good about it even if I got away. Because I recognize that stealing is wrong. And stealing has been wrong in many a society never exposed to christianity, so don't go taking all the credit. The Chinese were executing thieves long before christians showed up. American Indians were banishing wrong-doers long before Chris showed up and ruined everything.

All of this is because societies have semi-successfully parsed what is good and what is bad, and gone to the trouble of creating norms of behavior that it does its best to pass on to its members. It isn't a perfect process, but generally it works.

So good and bad are useful concepts, though they can vary from culture to culture. But sin and evil are unnecessary components of the discussion because they add nothing useful, and detract from the issue by injecting unnecessary complications, that are based on serious wrong-thinking.

And yet many theists think that both of those concepts are so important that it is all but impossible to be a decent human being without having them thoroughly ingrained in us. We have had theists here say that if they didn't believe in god, they would not be able to control their desire to rape and murder. Which is patently ridiculous unless they are indeed so brainwashed by religion that their behavior is exclusively controlled by their beliefs. Which is pretty scary.

edit: fixed one of those damn autocorrect problems
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 09:09:27 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2013, 09:28:43 PM »
GF Don't you think the herd/survival issue could come from experience ? Living together is not really the same as it once was. Sure we all live in close proximity,in cities,neighborhoods,but we don't really have communal living that once helped us survive over long periods,before modern humanity.
 
 We once lived communally as a survival mechanism,not because any god wanted it that way

12 Monkeys, even if I agree that what you said above could be possible, it still comes back to "How did the concept of good (communal living) and evil (every man for himself) come into being?"  The fact that we once lived in communities and now live in societies doesn't answer the question of where the concepts of good and evil come from.
there were many societies that had communal living(good as you put it) without a bible god.  The way it is now is less communal so is it more evil (evil is how you put it)?

 As an aboriginal we lived communally without a god,when the "Christians" arrived they labelled our communal potlatch system (sharing of wealth and food stock) as a heathen behaviour. The view these Christans had was hardly communal(good) and was more every man for himself(evil)

 The potlatch was outlawed,those who still used it,thrown in jail. The kids were then kidnapped and put in colonization camps.  How do you explain the actions of Christians as anything but evil?

Even if I agree with your statement that such actions were evil, that still does not explain where the concepts of good and evil originate.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2013, 09:46:48 PM »

So even though I am not one of them thar' god believers, I have no trouble, in this case or most any other that you can think of, in doing the right thing. I'm not even tempted to rob a bank, because I wouldn't feel good about it even if I got away. Because I recognize that stealing is wrong. And stealing has been wrong in many a society never exposed to christianity, so don't go taking all the credit. The Chinese were executing thieves long before christians showed up. American Indians were banishing wrong-doers long before Chris showed up and ruined everything.

I have no problem with non-theists being able, in most cases, not only being capable of but also actually doing the right thing.  Even "them thar' god believers" only do the right thing most of the time.


Quote
All of this is because societies have semi-successfully parsed what is good and what is bad, and gone to the trouble of creating norms of behavior that it does its best to pass on to its members. It isn't a perfect process, but generally it works.

So good and bad are useful concepts, though they can vary from culture to culture.

But for the most part, cultures in different parts of the world in different times have agreed on some core concepts of right and wrong: lying, murder, rape, and adultery = wrong. What explains the transcendent concepts of right and wrong over the thousands of years, various languages, and geographical distances?

Quote
But sin and evil are unnecessary components of the discussion because they add nothing useful, and detract from the issue by injecting unnecessary complications, that are based on serious wrong-thinking.

Maybe they are complicated components, but they are necessary to the discussion of good.  Can't have good unless you can distinguish it from evil.  Otherwise, all actions would just "be."

Quote
And yet many theists think that both of those concepts are so important that it is all but impossible to be a decent human being without having them thoroughly ingrained in us.


One can "be a decent human being without having [evil and sin] thoroughly ingrained in us."  If everyone wasn't basically "decent" then our world would be in chaos, which would not necessarily be evil, since evil complicates matters.

Quote
We have had theists here say that if they didn't believe in god, they would not be able to control their desire to rape and murder. Which is patently ridiculous unless they are indeed so brainwashed by religion that their behavior is exclusively controlled by their beliefs. Which is pretty scary.

Yes, that is scary that a person would not be able to control their desire to rape and murder outside of their belief in god. Perhaps he should develop a belief in the penal system.  That is always a good deterrent for the majority of theists and atheists alike.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2013, 10:16:37 PM »
gzusfreke

Why would different cultures be incredibly different when it come to issues like murder? What sort of culture would casually let you walk up and kill anyone you want and call it good. Even if cultures like that did exist, they wouldn't last long. And as the second to last one in that culture was about to be hit over the head by the last survivor, he may or may not have time to ask "Hey, this murder is okay thing wasn't really okay, was it?"

Not all cultures had rules against robbing banks, because not all cultures had banks. But when it comes to beating folks up and stuff, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that such activities are detrimental. Stealing too.

There were of course differences in cultures. As 12 Monkeys talked of earlier, he comes from a culture that valued well-being over wealth. The chieftains were tasked with making sure everyone else was doing at least as well as they were. If there was one person without a blanket, it was the chief, who would give his away to whoever needed one. That was his responsibility. So not all admirable cultural values are universal. I'm can't quite picture Queen Victoria giving a crap about a coal miner's widow in Northern England. But the basic things, like rules against murder and robbery and such, were pretty close to universal, and without any involvement from your god (who otherwise most certainly wasn't involved in the Americas or in most of Africa or Asia or even Europe in the beginning).

You can try to take credit for it all you want, but you would have a lot of convincing to do. Especially if you keep labeling bad stuff as "evil", implying that dark forces beyond our understanding are running around causing chaos.

We humans can do that well enough on our own, thank you.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2013, 10:33:45 PM »
Good question GF where did people who were not followers of your god obtain the ability to be better than the actual followers of said god?

 As the statement you made shows non believers were actually communal( good) and the followers of your god looked upon the communal (good) ways as heathen behaviour. The heathen behaviour according to your statement is good. When the believers came to the new world they adopted the every man concept (you see it as evil),does this mean they were not followers of this god?

 You could answer the question where did the heathens of the world (non Christian) obtain the ability to live in a good way? If their knowledge of good/bad did not come from your god,and it was superior to that of the Christian,where was it obtained?
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Offline Doubt

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #78 on: December 25, 2013, 12:27:36 AM »
So thank you and I think we need to start a movement.  Unfortunately there are no Facebook pages titled "sin is a stupid concept".

So you don't believe there is any sin? What is murder and rape - an inconvenience?
No, I do not believe there is any sin.

Murder and rape are destructive and hurtful acts.  Unfortunately the former is condoned by many religions for various reasons.

Online xyzzy

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #79 on: December 25, 2013, 12:36:39 AM »


Bolded Italicized: What does that even mean? 90+ Billion light years across, to have 1% of a planet, 1/1000000th the size of the star it orbits which looks like a dot when viewed from the inner region of the Oort cloud, One star of hundreds of millions of stars in this galaxy alone out of billions and billions to "fine tune" this speck for human life? How incredibly wastefully inefficient for an All-Powerful and Perfect god.

Or how incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur to those He made in His likeness.

I'm stuck at home with a finely tuned sinus infection, and catching up, (isn't it amazing how some of the smallest organisms on this planet are so finely tuned as to be able to kill us finely tuned beings? Proof of god, no doubt) so I have some time to reflect on your posts. I'm almost ready to jump to theism, but would like to make sure I fully understand the consequences of your devastating arguments. In other words, this is where your arguments tend to lead.

First, life as we know it occupies such a tiny niche and infinitesimally small part of the universe, that this fine tuning is proof of the existence of your god, Yahweh? We can prove this by attempting to falsify the argument by reversing it. Hence, if almost all of the universe supported our kind of life that wouldn't be fine tuning, hence god would not exist. Right? But you would argue the opposite then, yes? Basically, the argument by percentage is irrelevant. Your argument is simply "universe therefore god". But, I'm trying to convert, so let's run with that

Second and similarly, we're so finely tuned in that life as we know it (Jim) is reliant on some the most abundant elements in the universe. Clearly this is proof of fine tuning because the reverse of that, life formed out of rare elements, would be less probable which would imply less proof of fine tuning. But again, the theist argument would then reverse and still be claimed as proof. You know, I'm still not getting this, perhaps you could explain it to me?

Summing up the first two, by sheer numbers alone the universe as an entity is staggeringly unlikely, therefore fine tuning. Hence any more favourable arrangement would not be fine tuning, but, of course, the theist would most likely argue "whatever it is, fine-tuning, therefore god".

Third, for such a finely tuned entity as the universe to exist it simply couldn't happen by "chance". Therefore, this extraordinarily unlikely occurrence was initiated by an even more unlikely, even more complex, even more finely tuned entity. Because this probability is even less likely than a spontaneous universe, this proves that your god exists, and did it? I'm really feeling it now, I may be convinced. Let's proceed.

Fourth, this amazing finely tuned entity, that produced this finely tuned universe, that hosts us finely tuned beings, exists out of time and space (this is the usual argument, I'm assuming it's your position being as this god is undetectable). We must worship this unlikely being for his deeds. However, from talking to uncle Pascal, I now wonder how can I know that this is the correct god to worship? There are many creation stories and if this finely tuned universe is so unlikely to exist spontaneously, I could be in deep shit for worshipping the wrong creator.

Please tell me, dear correspondent, would not I be better served to make no choice then piss off one of the other beings that might, slim chance I know, be able to beat Chuck Norris in a fair fight?

What if it was a team of creators? Am I not putting myself in a position where only a finely tuned Chuck Norris could protect me from such devastation from not worshiping the correct creators?

Fifth, and I'm so close to believing now, because the universe couldn't possibly be eternal it needs a creator. However, the impossibility of an eternal universe is trumped by the non-impossible existence of an even more improbable, even more complicated now-possible eternal being that can do six impossible things before breakfast, one of which being making a finely tuned universe. Beating up Chuck Norris though, remains to be proven.

But, please help me overcome my doubt here. How can I know that this creator is eternal? Perhaps our creator was created by an even more powerful creator and so on. Now I know you are likely to say "infinite regress isn't possible" but what if it isn't infinite but, say, five levels deep? It's as likely, you know.

Now I'm in the position of worshipping our creator but, bloody hell, now I'm ass-kissing the frigging first-line manager and seriously dissing the CEO by denying his existence. That's some scary shit and I'm not sure I can rely on my first-line to protect me on account of his piss-poor performance, For example, witness my finely tuned sinus infection.

Finally, I'm struggling to understand the reason to worship Yahweh when his actual involvement in our time is so minimal.

If we are going with a cosmological argument, then lets agree that time did not exist before the big bang, and use the theist proposition (wild-assed unsupported assertion) of an entity outside of space and time - whatever the fuck that actually means.

Assuming (absent proof, it seems the theist thing to do) that this god created the big bang, and we insert this god in the 10-43 seconds gap in inflationary theory of a universe of 13.8 billion years, that's a pretty insignificant amount of time for which to command such a high salary. You can do the calculation yourself, but it's an absurdly small contribution. Admittedly I'm ignoring his occasional popping in to part a sea here, burn a bush there, rarely sparing the occasional person during so-called natural disasters, and all the finding of keys, as not even meeting minimum expectations for a being of his ability.

Frankly, this god thing comes over as somewhat lazy, subject to resource action, and perhaps we should be ignoring it as part of a remediation plan.

So, look, I'm really trying to believe but I need help in ignoring the lack of evidence; learning how to use non sequiturs such as extremely unlikely things being almost impossible but more unlikely things being certainties; using non-falsifiable arguments that can always be claimed to support my position; and turning a blind eye to all the indications that Yahweh and his creation story is simply a tale told by bronze and iron age goat herders intent on amusing their homies.

One more thing. Yes. there's a little (well, a lot, it's Christmas) of snark here but if you are leaning toward arguing that this is disrespectful, you should see how this would look if it were to counter such simplistic arguments with the actual complexity of reality.

Still, seriously, if you can actually tell me how your arguments hold water in the context above, I would love to see that. Until then, I'm just going to have to stick with the position that reality doesn't care about being liked, nor does it need to pander to my ego, or give a shit about my existence. Or, to put it another way, reality just is.

tl;dr. Any danger of something a little more convincing than an argument from wishful thinking?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #80 on: December 25, 2013, 01:22:20 AM »
Yet in Genesis 15:5, the Bible speaks of the stars being too numerous to count. Not bad for a superstitious text written by nomadic herders approximately 4,000 years ago.

<facepalm>

It says, "YHWH promises Abraham that his decendents will be more than the stars in the heavens, even greater than the sand on the sea shore." See, even an todler can look up into the sky and realize, "There'z lotz and lotz of starz dada!!!!" Not bad for a toddler, eh? To know just as much about the stars as Abraham, Moses and YHWH.  What it does not say is, "There are over a billion stars in the Milky Way alone and there are billions upon billions of galaxies in the universe.

If you were to understand the metaphor, they're not talking about the stars, not really... it's an allusion to say, "You're going to have lots and lots of decendants."

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #81 on: December 25, 2013, 02:09:46 AM »
So, "showing off", is what you are saying here?

If that's how you want to put it.

Nope.  That's how YOU put it:

Or how incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur to those He made in His likeness.

Not my choice of words: yours.  Except now - realising how boastful you made your god sound - you change it to this:

I see it more of Him expressing His creativity

BIG difference between what you originally said, and what you now want to change it to.  Compare:

incredibly extravagant a display to show His power and grandeur
expressing His creativity


Not the same thing at all.  If you meant to say the second, fine.  No probs at all with anyone displaying their creativity (scorpions!  Ebola!  most creative!), but please don't blame me if your original choice of words was so wide of the mark of the sentiment you wished to express.

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online xyzzy

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #82 on: December 25, 2013, 02:18:28 AM »
Yet in Genesis 15:5, the Bible speaks of the stars being too numerous to count. Not bad for a superstitious text written by nomadic herders approximately 4,000 years ago.

<facepalm>

It says, "YHWH promises Abraham that his decendents will be more than the stars in the heavens, even greater than the sand on the sea shore." See, even an todler can look up into the sky and realize, "There'z lotz and lotz of starz dada!!!!" Not bad for a toddler, eh? To know just as much about the stars as Abraham, Moses and YHWH.  What it does not say is, "There are over a billion stars in the Milky Way alone and there are billions upon billions of galaxies in the universe.

If you were to understand the metaphor, they're not talking about the stars, not really... it's an allusion to say, "You're going to have lots and lots of decendants."

Well, of course, even if gzusfreke's answer were accurate, the stars were too numerous for them to count!

Many (most?) people of that time in that area were illiterate, most likely only slightly numerate, and I wonder, does anyone know, did the Hebrews even have the conception of 300 billion, that being one of the considerations for the number of stars in our galaxy and, also, a possible answer to the number of galaxies in the universe?

So, yes, 300 billion x 300 billion = "lotz of starz, dad" (as Ivellios rightly points out) and is really, truly, absolutely, a scientific observation of staggering accuracy. Not.

FFS, man (gzusfreke), you'll give yourself a hernia if you continue stretching in this manner.

edit: for clarity (I hope)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 03:03:38 AM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Online xyzzy

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #83 on: December 25, 2013, 02:51:35 AM »

Uggh, I missed a reference. The initial 10-43 seconds is to the Plank epoch - the absolute earliest moment in time at the beginning of our universe. It's a really tiny place in which to hide a huge god.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_epoch
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 02:54:30 AM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #84 on: December 25, 2013, 03:19:53 AM »
12 Monkeys, even if I agree that what you said above could be possible, it still comes back to "How did the concept of good (communal living) and evil (every man for himself) come into being?"  The fact that we once lived in communities and now live in societies doesn't answer the question of where the concepts of good and evil come from.

If this is the question that piques your curiosity, I would encourage you to become familiar with evolutionary biology, what it is, and how it applies to human behavior. I've not read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, but I suspect this addresses this very question. In short, the best explanation to date seems to suggests behavior that provides an element of protection to self and kin/community, helps offspring and community, survive. These behaviors, genetically coded for, shaped and fine-tuned through experience (neurology is a fascinating study and I would suggest watching any youtube featuring Robert Sapolski for this part), provide effective adaptation to survival. There are some other behaviors that we may consider maladaptive that also help, such as aggressiveness. Granted, things work out most peacefully when most people cooperate, but aggressive members in a society inspire social evolution by pushing the envelope, challenging the status quo. They're also generally recognized as protectors against outside threat. But that's something to be considered after you understand how human behavior works generally.


So you don't believe there is any sin? What is murder and rape - an inconvenience?

"Sin" is a shortcut word used to identify a complex notion of behaviors that suggest ineffective and socially inappropriate response to a given stimuli. The problem with using this word is that it is founded upon a notion that is impossible to corroborate objectively, requires faith to accept its credibility, and provides zero accountability. If you substitute the word "sin" for the phrase, "ineffective and socially inappropriate," you should see why behaviors considered "sinful" in one culture are acceptable in another.

 Murder and rape, your examples, are ineffective means of solving problems in that they generally don't solve the fundamental problem, and further create other problems - namely for the victims.

 Sam Harris poses and argument that suggests such behaviors can be judged universally based on objective information, facts that exist regardless of a cultural bias or religious belief. I think he makes a compelling argument, but you can take a look yourself.


Robert Sopalsky on The Uniqueness of Humans




Sam Harris on Science Can Answer Moral Questions

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #85 on: December 25, 2013, 09:33:24 AM »

You can try to take credit for it all you want, but you would have a lot of convincing to do. Especially if you keep labeling bad stuff as "evil", implying that dark forces beyond our understanding are running around causing chaos.

We humans can do that well enough on our own, thank you.

Exactly - and why is it that humans cause chaos?  But if there is no bad stuff, if there is no evil, then is there really any chaos?  Or is it "just what is"?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #86 on: December 25, 2013, 09:46:47 AM »
Good question GF where did people who were not followers of your god obtain the ability to be better than the actual followers of said god?

Describing a group or groups of people as "better" than another group would presuppose that there is "good" and "bad."  So where did "good" and "bad" come from?

 
Quote
As the statement you made shows non believers were actually communal( good) and the followers of your god looked upon the communal (good) ways as heathen behaviour. The heathen behavior according to your statement is good.

Communal living has advantages. Even 1st century Christians were communal.  Read Acts chapter 2.


Quote
When the believers came to the new world they adopted the every man concept (you see it as evil),does this mean they were not followers of this god?

Which new world?  The "Americas"? Are you an indigenous native?  I'm only asking in order to get context for your question, which I'm having a hard time following.

Quote
You could answer the question where did the heathens of the world (non Christian) obtain the ability to live in a good way? If their knowledge of good/bad did not come from your god,and it was superior to that of the Christian,where was it obtained?

My Christian worldview tells me that humans were made in the image, or likeness, of God.  As a mirror reflects our image, we reflect the image, or character, of God. One of the characteristics of God is goodness. Our goodness is a reflection of the goodness of the One Who made us.

As for one group's or several groups' goodness being "superior" to another group, 1) that would require a rating system of "good" and "bad", so I ask - where did the rating system come? and 2) my Christian worldview tells me that we are all flawed, none are "good" (Romans 3:23), and even the good things we do are as filthy menstrual rags before a holy and righteous God. (Isaiah 64:6). 

To think of one's self, or one's group, as superior to another actually proves my point, as it is one's pride that would cause one to make such a statement.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin