Author Topic: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock  (Read 12224 times)

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 10:45:22 PM »

Ok.  So everyone is a sinner.  But you do recognize some hierarchy of sin.  Don't you?


You can actually construe it from the doctrine that there is a hierachy of sin, but there are contradictions.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Add, I sure wish they would speak plain Aramaic.  :)

I hope it is clear here that my complaint is with the sort of Christian who insists all who do not follow the same footsteps and he or she is following will roast lavishly forever and ever. I've certainly met Christians who were a little less tyrannical about the whole thing.

The fundamentalists don't seem to be the sort to let anyone do anything half way. Well, you can sin halfway, then do the JC is my savior thingy and its okay. But you can't be a partial sinner and get into heaven, according to them. Or at least if you can, they don't bring it up. The fact that the bible mentions a loophole or two would not go over well in some circles.

My thesis here is not that humans can't differentiate between degrees of badguyness, but that the church is built on the concept of sin, and it has to be a one sin fits all situation, because they are defining all of us as bad guys, and they have to have a way to convince even the nicest first grade teacher that she might as well be in cahoots with Al Capone. People aren't allowed to go comparison shopping for which sins are bad and which are really really bad. Common sense can be used by the poor wretches to compare and contrast the various offenses at the hobby level, but in real life it cannot matter. Chewing gum in class and shooting up the class are, for all practical purposes, described as equally offensive to their god. The church doesn't have time to quarrel over the details. So they just call you sh*t and ask you to love them. And God, the kid and the holy ghost or whatever version they're big on in any given subgroup.

I've always wondered how the holy ghost feels about us by the way. He's never mentioned as one of our admirers.

Anyway, I'm not talking about the practical. I'm talking about the necessary, and the Christian church is necessarily built upon defining not only all major and minor social aberrations as sin, but too in defining all humans as sinful. Automagically.

I remember quite clearly that as a little child I was told I was a sinner, and I just couldn't quite parse that accusation. I didn't anguish over it much though. However, others on this site have described how horrified they were as children when they were told they were sinners, and destined for a large and overpopulated BBQ grill somewhere if they didn't proclaim their newfound love for the fellow in the robes. It was apparently somewhat scarring, brain-cell wise. I apparently lucked out because my approach to the charges was casual. Others were not so fortunate.

The church pronounces everyone guilty not because everyone is guilty, but because everyone needs to be guilty for the scam to work.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 11:06:22 PM »

Ok.  So everyone is a sinner.  But you do recognize some hierarchy of sin.  Don't you?


You can actually construe it from the doctrine that there is a hierachy of sin, but there are contradictions.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
so heaven has a class system? This means the lesser the sins committed the better your place in heaven,the worse the sin the lower your class? Think there is a heaven prison for murderers that accept Jesus?

Nah It isn't a prison a sort of Heaven skid row. If all of heaven is a theme park: those guys are the ones who are stuck in the "South of the Border" copy.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 06:31:31 AM »
Sin is also a bludgeon that Christians use against non-believers -- "We're saved and you're not, neener neener neener!"
That reminds me of a friend telling me that when he was a Christian (I think he was a JW) he and his co-deluded used to chant

We are the pure and chosen few,
And all the rest are damned.
There’s room enough in hell for you—
We don’t want heaven crammed.


to those who took the piss.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 01:24:09 PM »
You know, this topic is really haunting me. 

Could some Christians weigh in on this?

Ok.  So everyone is a sinner.  But you do recognize some hierarchy of sin.  Don't you?

I mean, let's take Ariel Castro - they guy who kidnapped, imprisoned, raped and tortured three women for more than a decade.  He was a Christian.  Went to church every Sunday, while these women were chained up in his home

And then, let's take the bored housewife, who becomes arrogant at the PTA meeting.

I mean, do you recognize a difference here?  Or is a sin a sin a sin, and we are all sinners, so it doesn't matter which sins we commit?

In Catholic theology there is a difference. That's what purgatory is all about - it's like heaven's mud room where you scrape off all the crap (sin) still attached to your soul so you can get in and party with jesus. The main (and terribly simplified) difference between justification between protestants and catholics is that protestants believe sin is forgiven and therefore one is *declared* righteous (right with god, or on equal footing, sin-wise). Catholics believe sin must be expelled so a person actually *becomes* righteous (heh, I laugh at the bias in my catholic catechism in this explanation, it seemed so objective once upon a time). In this way, righteousness, can a person exist in proximity to god, because "no unclean thing" can coexist with god.  In purgatory you're expected to recognize your faults, the sins that inspired them, and let that go. CS Lewis' literary analogy of the red lizard fits in nicely here.

This was a great source of comfort to me as a practicing catholic because, as you say, a person ought to be at least remotely aware of their sin. Would god really ignore just walking past a homeless woman without so much as making eye contact, nevermind refusing to drop a single coin in her bowl, as one glides right into Macy's to buy perfume and earrings? However, it's also the concept that Mother Teresa of Calcutta used to rationalize watching and helping people suffer. The more you suffer now, the better you have it in purgatory, the sooner you can get to the punch bowl in heaven and get your serving of manna, new name, and white rock (Revelation 2:17). In any case, to answer your question, yes, there is a hierarchy in catholic theology, and protestants will say there is a difference with regard to temporal consequences. Ultimately, however, sin, any sin, separates one from god. That's where the idea that "all sin is equal" comes from.

Back to the OP, I think this article "The Brain on Trial" is a nice summary of the problem of punishment based on behavior (which is what sin is - a failed theory of behavior). Here's an excerpt:

Quote
The lesson from all these stories is the same: human behavior cannot be separated from human biology. If we like to believe that people make free choices about their behavior (as in, “I don’t gamble, because I’m strong-willed”), cases like Alex the pedophile, the frontotemporal shoplifters, and the gambling Parkinson’s patients may encourage us to examine our views more carefully. Perhaps not everyone is equally “free” to make socially appropriate choices.

For me, personally, the idea some people can't ever help "sinning" was what started chipping away at my faith. Learning about autistic spectrum disorders, and especially teaching socially appropriate behaviors, helped me understand the difference between "sin" and "impulse." We can control many impulses, but many we cannot. Also, many we simply don't recognize in ourselves or others. In talking with theists about behavior and biology, however, there seems to be a roadblock if we move along too fast. It's almost as if they can fathom that a person with an obvious neurological abnormality can't be held accountable for socially inappropriate behaviors (which is really what "sin" is), but the idea that there is no "ideal" neurology, there is no universal mark of perfection to which we all miss in measure sounds like I'm advocating everyone gets their own Twinkies Defense Card to be used at any time.

Still, I like the argument presented in the OP, and that resonates with me because it was the angle that first cracked through my religion-dependent thinking. The idea that "sin" is a theory of behavior, and "redemption" is the solution for this problem of sin, just doesn't hold water when one learns about behavior objectively. It's the same pattern of rejecting the theory of God's Wrath when explaining weather patterns. Only, we're now learning to explain behavior patterns. And we're doing it through objective observation, data collection, critical analysis, and extensive peer-review. In short, we're learning to explain behavior via the scientific method, not religious method (obtained through divine revelation and personal SPAG). Slowly but surely I think many theists will catch on. Most recognize Pat Robertson for the bozo he is when he claims tsunamis and earthquakes are God's temper tantrum for humans having the audacity to let two women get married, but the perception of free will and the freedom to choose to be good is an illusion still very much supported by our culture, even without chesus mucking it all up.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 07:32:55 PM »
Some very good points and observations, albeto. I don't have time at this minute to add my two cents worth, and may not until tomorrow, but I liked what you wrote. My OP used very generalized and very fundamentalist attitudes against sin, but obviously the other versions of christianity have their own takes on the issue. At last the catholic point of view seems to take the individual into consideration, and it offers a compromise of sorts that is humane.

I may have over-generalized in my OP by limiting my definition of sin the the generic fundy version that floats around in my head when theists say the word. I still think it is a problem, but I may be inclined to modify my specific complaints based on the things you've got me thinking about. But don't worry. I'm not on the verge of snacking on Jesus.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 10:13:57 PM »
Okay, I e decided that the fundamentalists have gone overboard but that maybe the catholic system is a little more well-grounded, in that it is perhaps a bit more tolerant of human foibles. So if we were just fending off catholic doctrine, sinning might not play quite as big a part. It would still be big, but perhaps not, as I have suggested, pretty much everything.

Anyone else who was a part of a specific religious group, can you describe  that group's take on sin, as you understood it?
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 10:15:08 PM »
so heaven has a class system?

Yes.

[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

It's like a life insurance policy. The more you lose in this life, the more you get back in the next life. Esp if you are a virgin, from one of the 12 tribes.

[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It doesn't detail where the secondfruits go, but they must go somewhere. Perhaps they are used for slave labour in heaven.

Quote
This means the lesser the sins committed the better your place in heaven,the worse the sin the lower your class? Think there is a heaven prison for murderers that accept Jesus?

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you have lied at any time in your life, you have to face the second death.
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Offline albeto

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 10:53:27 PM »
At last the catholic point of view seems to take the individual into consideration, and it offers a compromise of sorts that is humane.

I don't know that I would go quite that far! Case in point, a catholic is taught to subjugate his or her own will if the church teaches otherwise. Most Americans don't think twice about ignoring this, but there are people who are left with such problems as being denied artificial birth control, essentially relegating them to forced incubators when the "rhythm method" doesn't work, or left convincing themselves their LGBTQ identity is sinful and in need of suppression. The "good catholic" can't just read the bible differently, the "good catholic" knows that if they have been taught what the church teaches, they are under moral obligation to be obedient. It is a mortal sin not to.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2013, 06:18:11 AM »
Completely agree with the OP.

What I have started doing in these discussions is deny that sin even exists. It usually is a way to end the conversation if the Christian is bothering you. If youre enjoying the conversation you can explain why.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 01:33:42 PM »
You know, this topic is really haunting me. 

Could some Christians weigh in on this?

Ok.  So everyone is a sinner.  But you do recognize some hierarchy of sin.  Don't you?

I mean, let's take Ariel Castro - they guy who kidnapped, imprisoned, raped and tortured three women for more than a decade.  He was a Christian.  Went to church every Sunday, while these women were chained up in his home

And then, let's take the bored housewife, who becomes arrogant at the PTA meeting.

I mean, do you recognize a difference here?  Or is a sin a sin a sin, and we are all sinners, so it doesn't matter which sins we commit?

You do realize that he went to Church in order to keep up the appearance as a "good guy" so nobody would suspect him, right?

Lots of people use God and church as a cover for their actions. You shouldn't assume they are actually Christians.

Anyone who is washed in the blood of the lamb would not do those things.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 05:30:47 PM »
Okay, I’ve decided that the fundamentalists have gone overboard
But if considering the nature of sin, they are correct. Disobeying any part of God’s Law must incur the same penalty. God (and any other tyrant you can think of, e.g. Pol Pot.) must be obeyed. This gives absolute authority to God, which is what God wants. He says so.

Quote
but that maybe the catholic system is a little more well-grounded, in that it is perhaps a bit more tolerant of human foibles.

There is absolutely no scriptural basis for the idea of the classification of sins, purgatory and seven levels of hell (see Dante).

Quote
So if we were just fending off catholic doctrine, sinning might not play quite as big a part. It would still be big, but perhaps not, as I have suggested, pretty much everything.
Do not forget that the Catholic system is devised to keep the Church at the heart of the people. If they sin, they do not get to heaven unless God forgives them. Only a priest can speak to God, therefore you must tell a priest your sins. The priest then knows everything about you. There is no privacy for anything. If you fail to tell your sins to the church, you are hell-bound and there is no escape from this.

More than this Catholicism is no easy touch. As it creates the classification of sins, purgatory and seven levels of hell, it also creates new sins - e.g. "Fish on Friday".

The FBI, NSA, and CIA would love this sort of intelligence access. This is the totalitarian state.

A Protestant (the fundamentalists are mostly Protestant) may speak with God directly and be forgiven. This creates privacy but at the cost of one level of sin. To get around this, fundamentalist sects tend to be filled with informers or as they say, “the congregation regulates itself in accordance with the teachings of the faith/pastor/etc." The "shunning" of errant members is one way of dealing with dissenters.

No Church fails to exploit sin to the max. They simply do it in different ways. Between Catholics and Protestants, the difference is that of being hanged with a new rope and an old one.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 06:38:50 PM »

You do realize that he went to Church in order to keep up the appearance as a "good guy" so nobody would suspect him, right?

Lots of people use God and church as a cover for their actions. You shouldn't assume they are actually Christians.

But of course! All kinds of priests and ministers do this. I know a narcissistic control freak that murdered his wife, but people refuse to believe it because he was a minister. That's the second purpose of a church. The first you ask? To not have to get a real job, and sucker people into paying the fool tax.


Anyone who is washed in the blood of the lamb would not do those things.

In the bible the apostles (fearing for thier lives) ask Jesus how to tell between a real believer and a false one. He replies that anyone that believes in him will not only be able to preform each and every miricle he did, but ones even greater. Yet, all we get are people who claim to be christians, but they perform no differently than false christians. Yet the people fooled are not us, but other believers that have the same failings as they. If you cannot even do something so simple like turn water into wine, let alone cure the blind or even raise the dead, we know the truth about you as well.

If you give that old excuse, "But God doesn't do that anymore!" Please specify the verse that God says when he stopped doing that. Otherwise how can we tell you from a true or false Christian?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2013, 08:31:34 PM »


You do realize that he went to Church in order to keep up the appearance as a "good guy" so nobody would suspect him, right?

Lots of people use God and church as a cover for their actions. You shouldn't assume they are actually Christians.

Anyone who is washed in the blood of the lamb would not do those things.

So no true Scottsman would put sugar on their porridge. Got it.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2013, 08:51:50 PM »
We are told two things by Christians. 1) That we live in a universe fine-tuned for us and 2) we are all sinners.

The irony of saying that we are in a perfect universe but that it can't allow for that one  variable is beyond them, I guess.

Even secular scientists affirm that the universe is fine-tuned to allow human life to exist on Earth.

From http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil:

"2. God provides the best explanation of the complex order in the universe. During the last 40 years, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions given in the big bang itself. We now know that life-prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life-permitting universe like ours. How much more probable?

The answer is that the chances that the universe should be life-permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, a change in the strength of gravity or of the atomic weak force by only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. The so-called cosmological constant "lambda" which drives the inflationary expansion of the universe and is responsible for the recently discovered acceleration of the universe’s expansion is fine-tuned to around one part in 10120. Oxford physicist Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s special low entropy condition, on which our lives depend, having arisen sheerly by chance is at least as small as about one part in 1010(123). Penrose comments, “I cannot even recall seeing anything else in physics whose accuracy is known to approach, even remotely, a figure like one part in 1010(123). ” There are multiple quantities and constants which must be fine-tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. And it’s not just each quantity which must be exquisitely fine-tuned; their ratios to one another must be also finely-tuned. So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers.

There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should possess the values they do. The one-time agnostic physicist Paul Davies comments, “Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact.” Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics.” Robert Jastrow, the former head of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God even to come out of science.

The view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic view that the universe, when it popped into being uncaused out of nothing, just happened to be by chance fine-tuned to an incomprehensible precision for the existence of intelligent life."

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil#ixzz2oLwItS7w

But this does not mean that Christians believe the universe is perfect. Christians believe the universe is under the curse of sin.  It and everything created thing within it is imperfect. Not necessarily as bad as it could be, but nevertheless not completely perfect.

And yes, Christians include themselves in the list of who is a sinner.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2013, 08:59:04 PM »
^^^So it is fine tuned to the max but a little thing like sin throws it off. The big guy tweaks the crap out of the place so we can live here and then casually lets that girl eat her apple or whatever and uglify the place.

If he can't fine tune us to grow as humans without allowing sin into the mix, his mastery over gravity is also suspect.

Yes, I know there are a lot of people who see fine-tuning in our universe. That if is wasn't like it is, we wouldn't be here. And that is perhaps true. But the reason we are here is that the universe happens to be amenable to us, not because it was made amenable to us. If you'll notice, if we weren't here, we wouldn't even be able to talk about this.

If there is some sort of design to our universe, I can assure you your god wasn't involved. He's a bit too careless and irresponsible to also be detail oriented.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2013, 09:07:42 PM »
Yes, I know there are a lot of people who see fine-tuning in our universe. That if is wasn't like it is, we wouldn't be here. And that is perhaps true. But the reason we are here is that the universe happens to be amenable to us, not because it was made amenable to us. If you'll notice, if we weren't here, we wouldn't even be able to talk about this.

The high improbability "that the universe happens to be amenable to us" just by chance should grab your attention, if even only for a few minutes, so that you can ponder all the things that are actually fine-tuned so that you and I can be here and have this discussion.

Quote
If there is some sort of design to our universe, I can assure you your god wasn't involved. He's a bit too careless and irresponsible to also be detail oriented.

Ok, assure me, but do it with facts and not your opinion.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2013, 09:17:42 PM »
^^^So it is fine tuned to the max but a little thing like sin throws it off. The big guy tweaks the crap out of the place so we can live here and then casually lets that girl eat her apple or whatever and uglify the place.

If he can't fine tune us to grow as humans without allowing sin into the mix, his mastery over gravity is also suspect.

Yes, I know there are a lot of people who see fine-tuning in our universe. That if is wasn't like it is, we wouldn't be here. And that is perhaps true. But the reason we are here is that the universe happens to be amenable to us, not because it was made amenable to us. If you'll notice, if we weren't here, we wouldn't even be able to talk about this.

If there is some sort of design to our universe, I can assure you your god wasn't involved. He's a bit too careless and irresponsible to also be detail oriented.
No doubt. I mean, if you want to have a deep, honest discussion with me about whether or not the universe is "fine tuned" by an intelligent creator, that's fine. But, if your proposed creator comes from one of the many tall tales of the ancient world, I just can't take you seriously. Drop the extremely insane bullshit, and then maybe we can have a discussion. Seriously. Bible bullshit is unacceptable. Get with reality for Fuck's sake. I'm sick of this shit.

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2013, 09:26:59 PM »

Ok, assure me, but do it with facts and not your opinion.

It wold be much easier if you could use facts regarding the god you were told about as you grew up.  YHWH built the universe, did he?  How?  Where was YHWH before there was a universe?  Please, just the facts...

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2013, 09:27:16 PM »
Quote
author=gzusfreke link=topic=26058.msg590988#msg590988 date=1387850862

Ok, assure me, but do it with facts and not your opinion.

It does grab my attention, but that doesn't mean that the universe is either planned or accidental. It means that we believe there are some constraints as to what kind of universe could allow life, and if so, we may exist inside a fairly small window. If it is deliberate, it does not mean that your god is involved. The fact that you used numbers doesn't mean you provided anything more than I did with my opinion, because we don't yet have enough information to know what the implications of those numbers are. We don't even have enough information to know if the conclusions you mentioned are at all correct.

Right now a group of scientists are investigating the possibility that the universe is a hologram. Like Princess Leia in Star Wars, but with better special effects. And they think they can prove that it is a hologram if, in fact, it is. Should that happen, then we all have to sit back and go "Whoa", because methinks holograms are definitely not natural. But still, that would not mean that your god was involved. It would only mean something we don't understand did it. Which would be pretty weird anyway.

If your god did do all of this, and he did make Adam, it means that he could have given the guy a laptop but didn't. It would mean he is all high-tech but that he wanted us in the stone age. Which means that he didn't mind that we were ill-equipped to deal with reality. He didn't even give us the wheel. t don't know what that implies, but it seems weird to me.

And on a side note, I'm glad to see that lotanddaughters is getting into the holiday spirit  ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2013, 09:29:32 PM »

Ok, assure me, but do it with facts and not your opinion.

It wold be much easier if you could use facts regarding the god you were told about as you grew up.  YHWH built the universe, did he?  How?  Where was YHWH before there was a universe?  Please, just the facts...

Yes, I anticipated such a response.  What type of facts would you accept? 
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2013, 09:35:21 PM »
The fact that you used numbers doesn't mean you provided anything more than I did with my opinion, because we don't yet have enough information to know what the implications of those numbers are. We don't even have enough information to know if the conclusions you mentioned are at all correct.

That's kind of the point.  There is not enough information for people to say that God does not exist and that God did not create the universe, yet many posts in this Forum speak of these things as if they are proven facts.

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If your god did do all of this, and he did make Adam, it means that he could have given the guy a laptop but didn't. It would mean he is all high-tech but that he wanted us in the stone age. Which means that he didn't mind that we were ill-equipped to deal with reality. He didn't even give us the wheel. t don't know what that implies, but it seems weird to me.

Since when is a laptop required equipment for dealing with reality?  Most of the world got along fine, and many parts of the world still do, without laptops until about 20 years ago.

What this implies is that technology is your god. :)


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And on a side note, I'm glad to see that lotanddaughters is getting into the holiday spirit  ;D
Yes, God bless him one and all.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 PM »
If your god did do all of this, and he did make Adam, it means that he could have given the guy a laptop but didn't. It would mean he is all high-tech but that he wanted us in the stone age. Which means that he didn't mind that we were ill-equipped to deal with reality. He didn't even give us the wheel. t don't know what that implies, but it seems weird to me.

Since when is a laptop required equipment for dealing with reality?  Most of the world got along fine, and many parts of the world still do, without laptops until about 20 years ago.

What this implies is that technology is your god. :)
This reminds me of my childhood in private school. The teachers or the preacher would try to explain "Thou shall have no other gods before me". They would say things like, "What this Commandment means is, don't put anything before God, such as money, celebrities, or other worldly things or activities."

Of course, if the all-knowing Creator of the Universe meant those things, I'm sure He wouldn't have used the word "gods". Of course, as a rational, intelligent human being, I fully understand that the ancient man who wrote that "Commandment" believed that other gods existed, or he at least thought his intended readers believed that other gods existed. Of course, religious teachers won't even entertain the most obvious possibility that clearly presents itself to anyone who is in their right mind.

It's just like the one on adultery. To the original writer, if you were out with your comrades, banging the shit out of all that recently-conquered Midianite ass, you were not committing adultery against your wife. Now, if you were banging your fellow Israelite's wife, you and his wife were definitely committing adultery against him.

Atheism helps you decipher the world around you more clearly. Seriously. Theism puts you at a disadvantage. Indoctrinating children puts them at a disadvantage among non-indoctrinated children. I became a non-believer at around the age of twenty. I wish I would have come to my conclusion sooner.

It's not too late to shed those "God goggles". :)   The sooner the better, though. Seriously.






And on a side note, I'm glad to see that lotanddaughters is getting into the holiday spirit  ;D
Yes, God bless him one and all.
Thank you both.  :)

I still have family members that are Christian, and I will be spending Christmas Day with them. I love my family and cherish these get-togethers. Merry Christmas to everybody at WWGHA!
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2013, 10:32:09 PM »
Of course, as a rational, intelligent human being, I fully understand that the ancient man who wrote that "Commandment" believed that other gods existed, or he at least thought his intended readers believed that other gods existed. Of course, religious teachers won't even entertain the most obvious possibility that clearly presents itself to anyone who is in their right mind.

Always good to know I'm dealing with someone who is rational and intelligent, because I know that they will have an open mind even if they disagree with what I say.  And you will likely disagree with me when I say that the reason "gods" was used instead of just a singular god is that the Canaanites (Hivvites, Jebusites, etc.), Egyptians, and Chaldeans worshiped more than one god. The Israelites themselves also would "backslide" and adopt the worship of the tribes around them and would worship other gods along with Yahweh. But the Bible was not written in such a way that anyone reading it would understand these to be nothing more than idols, because the Bible is clear that Yahweh is the only God.

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Atheism helps you decipher the world around you more clearly. Seriously. Theism puts you at a disadvantage.

That's just your opinion but not fact.  Question, can atheism make sense of the problem of evil?  If the universe came from nothing, for no reason, and time plus chance plus nothing produced a protein that with enough time plus chance plus more nothing eventually evolved into a purposeless blob called a "human," then how does atheism decipher "good" and "evil"?

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Indoctrinating children puts them at a disadvantage among non-indoctrinated children. I became a non-believer at around the age of twenty. I wish I would have come to my conclusion sooner.

Really, so do you not indoctrinate your children against playing kickball in the middle of the interstate?  Do you not indoctrinate your children against eating a steamy pile of dog crap?  Indoctrination is not necessarily a bad thing. :o

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2013, 10:36:48 PM »


The high improbability "that the universe happens to be amenable to us" just by chance should grab your attention

And that the majority of said universe is Vacuum, except for a tiny sliver of that universe that is matter. Matter, most of which a hydrogen furnaces that would destroy you body within a tenth of a second, except for a tiny sliver that is solid. Of that Solid matter, all but a tiny sliver is barren, lifeless rock. Or that tiny sliver that isn't barren, all but a tiny sliver is absolutely toxic to your lungs.

Perhaps that should grab your attention, but it won't.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2013, 10:50:49 PM »

And that the majority of said universe is Vacuum, except for a tiny sliver of that universe that is matter. Matter, most of which a hydrogen furnaces that would destroy you body within a tenth of a second, except for a tiny sliver that is solid. Of that Solid matter, all but a tiny sliver is barren, lifeless rock. Or that tiny sliver that isn't barren, all but a tiny sliver is absolutely toxic to your lungs.

Perhaps that should grab your attention, but it won't.

It actually does grab my attention, because it agrees with what I said earlier. Thank you for your confirmation of what I've been saying.

Peace and grace.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2013, 11:13:36 PM »

And that the majority of said universe is Vacuum, except for a tiny sliver of that universe that is matter. Matter, most of which a hydrogen furnaces that would destroy you body within a tenth of a second, except for a tiny sliver that is solid. Of that Solid matter, all but a tiny sliver is barren, lifeless rock. Or that tiny sliver that isn't barren, all but a tiny sliver is absolutely toxic to your lungs.

Perhaps that should grab your attention, but it won't.

It actually does grab my attention, because it agrees with what I said earlier. Thank you for your confirmation of what I've been saying.

Peace and grace.

Au contraire.

If the universe was "fine tuned for human life" then humans would be able to live anywhere and everywhere au natural. However, even on our own planet, anywhere else but a small fraction we need support in the form of clothing and shelter to survive. As life began, it adapted to it's surroundings, not the surroundings being made for it.

"Just because a plant can grow in a crack of a sidewalk, despite it's beauty, the sidewalk was certainly not designed for the plant."



 DarkMatter2525 Fined Tuned Universe

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2013, 11:24:01 PM »
Au contraire.

If the universe was "fine tuned for human life" then humans would be able to live anywhere and everywhere au natural. However, even on our own planet, anywhere else but a small fraction we need support in the form of clothing and shelter to survive.

and an "au contra ire" to you as well. The universe is fine-tuned for life to exist "on earth." Other than the occasional "near miss" of a comet, we don't worry about quasars wiping us out with radiation or overwhelming magnetic waves, we don't worry about black holes swallowing our planet, the gravitation pull of other solar systems and galaxies are not ripping the moon out of orbit, etc.

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As life began, it adapted to it's surroundings, not the surroundings being made for it.

Do you even care how illogical your statement is?  How can life that is not adapted to its surroundings survive long enough to adapt?

When man "adapts" today, it is from the safety of a zone where he is capable of surviving.  When he went to the Arctic or Antarctic, he made his adaptions prior to going there.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2013, 11:30:42 PM »
. . . because the Bible is clear that Yahweh is the only God.
I would have to disagree. I would say that the Bible and many archaeological findings clearly point to Yahweh not always being the only god.

My advice:

Any conclusion that leading scholars agree upon should be given good consideration. The thing is, every field of science is crowded with capable researchers. If the overwhelming majority of biologists say the Theory of Evolution best explains reality, it probably does. If it bugs you that you aren't certain, and you want to check their findings, and you have all the time in the world to do so, by all means do it. If not, it's a safe bet to just accept what they "collectively" have to say concerning the aspects that the overwhelming majority agree upon.

If archaeologists overwhelmingly agree that Mormonism evolved from Christianity, Christianity evolved from Judaism, and Judaism evolved from Canaanite and other local mythologies, it's a safe bet to accept it until other evidence proves otherwise.

There are Texas Hold 'Em players and other gamblers who make a good living on considerably less-safe bets. Seriously.





Quote
Atheism helps you decipher the world around you more clearly. Seriously. Theism puts you at a disadvantage.

That's just your opinion but not fact.  Question, can atheism make sense of the problem of evil?  If the universe came from nothing, for no reason, and time plus chance plus nothing produced a protein that with enough time plus chance plus more nothing eventually evolved into a purposeless blob called a "human," then how does atheism decipher "good" and "evil"?
Long story short:

Societies that don't work as a team will not survive as well as societies that do.

Morality is like beauty. There are blatant extremes that most people will agree upon. The less extreme the difference, the harder it is to choose between two objects or actions.






Quote
Indoctrinating children puts them at a disadvantage among non-indoctrinated children. I became a non-believer at around the age of twenty. I wish I would have come to my conclusion sooner.

Really, so do you not indoctrinate your children against playing kickball in the middle of the interstate?  Do you not indoctrinate your children against eating a steamy pile of dog crap?  Indoctrination is not necessarily a bad thing. :o
I thought my message was perfectly clear within the context. I apologize if I was mistaken.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2013, 11:39:13 PM »
Au contraire.

If the universe was "fine tuned for human life" then humans would be able to live anywhere and everywhere au natural. However, even on our own planet, anywhere else but a small fraction we need support in the form of clothing and shelter to survive.

and an "au contra ire" to you as well. The universe is fine-tuned for life to exist "on earth." Other than the occasional "near miss" of a comet, we don't worry about quasars wiping us out with radiation or overwhelming magnetic waves, we don't worry about black holes swallowing our planet, the gravitation pull of other solar systems and galaxies are not ripping the moon out of orbit, etc.

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As life began, it adapted to it's surroundings, not the surroundings being made for it.

Bolded: Did you not even read that? Even the Earth isn't fine tuned for human life...

Bolded Italicized: What does that even mean? 90+ Billion light years across, to have 1% of a planet, 1/1000000th the size of the star it orbits which looks like a dot when viewed from the inner region of the Oort cloud, One star of hundreds of millions of stars in this galaxy alone out of billions and billions of galaxies to "fine tune" this speck for human life? How incredibly wastefully inefficient for an All-Powerful and Perfect god.

As for your "occasional near miss" we've been hit before and we'll be hit again. There was this one, 6 miles wide, that hit next to the Yucatan Pennisula. At the best, it was the catalyst for a mass extinction.

Do you even care how illogical your statement is?  How can life that is not adapted to its surroundings survive long enough to adapt?

When man "adapts" today, it is from the safety of a zone where he is capable of surviving.  When he went to the Arctic or Antarctic, he made his adaptions prior to going there.


Well, not going on biogenesis, just taking something more recent like an animal evolving to leave the water and live on land and some that went back into the sea.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 11:48:38 PM by Ivellios »