Author Topic: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock  (Read 8022 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1300
  • Darwins +91/-11
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #145 on: December 26, 2013, 09:57:43 PM »
No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.


???

Evidence
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #146 on: December 26, 2013, 09:57:50 PM »
Ok, how is the universe put together and how do you know that Yahweh does not understand it?

Because we wouldn't have to argue over it if he did.

People would still argue - it's just human nature.

Finally you're absolutely right about something. It is human nature. Evolved human nature.

It has nothing to do with any god.

PP, your logic evades me.  I thought "evolved" humans got better, not worse.  At least, that's what secular humanism teaches.

Going from being declared "it is good" to being under the curse of sin isn't evolution, but devolution.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #147 on: December 26, 2013, 09:59:20 PM »
No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.


???

Evidence



???

Evidence

for what ???
  you lost me in translation somewhere.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1300
  • Darwins +91/-11
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #148 on: December 26, 2013, 10:05:37 PM »
You lost me in translation somewhere.

Sure did.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #149 on: December 26, 2013, 10:22:33 PM »
the whole point of the crucifixion.

is in my sig
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #150 on: December 26, 2013, 10:25:15 PM »

Never? I have to question your honesty, but I will give you the opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe.

No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2013, 10:28:13 PM »
I thought "evolved" humans got better, not worse.  At least, that's what secular humanism teaches.


No. Secular humanism teaches "There is merit in being kind in itself. No celestial punishment and reward system is needed" It isn't about an a direct time relationship.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #152 on: December 26, 2013, 10:33:15 PM »

Never? I have to question your honesty, but I will give you the opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe.

No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.

If it is indeed a picture that "portrays the universe as described in the Bible" then lay it out it in plain terms.  Show me in the Bible what corresponds to the picture, so I'll be on the same page with you.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #153 on: December 26, 2013, 10:40:08 PM »
H2O can be water, ice, and steam. Think of the 3 persons of God like that. It's certainly not irrational that water, ice and steam all exist in different states.

No, I think I'll stick with the "pantheon of gods" concept a while longer.  It makes a bit more sense, especially when dealing with a god dying and coming back to life.  If you have three separate gods and one dies, the other two could work their divine magic and bring him back; otherwise, if the other two aspects of the same being did the work, he was only one-third dead and there was no real sacrifice.
Astreja I thought for a moment we might have witnessed a Christian denounce monotheism.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #154 on: December 26, 2013, 10:47:16 PM »

Never? I have to question your honesty, but I will give you the opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe.

No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.

If it is indeed a picture that "portrays the universe as described in the Bible" then lay it out it in plain terms.  Show me in the Bible what corresponds to the picture, so I'll be on the same page with you.

Honestly some parts of the picture I do not know. However the firmament is established in Genesis, furthermore the rain water for the Noah story are supposedly stored there...above the stars.

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day

Job 26:11 mentions the Pillars of Heaven

 1 Samuel 2:8 talks of the pillars of the earth


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #155 on: December 26, 2013, 11:07:15 PM »

Never? I have to question your honesty, but I will give you the opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe.

No problem, question my honesty all you want.  I'm certainly questioning yours.

Why do I need an "opportunity to find an alternative picture of the biblical universe"?  That's one of the weirdest things anyone as ever said to me on the forum, but at least you were civil.

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.

If it is indeed a picture that "portrays the universe as described in the Bible" then lay it out it in plain terms.  Show me in the Bible what corresponds to the picture, so I'll be on the same page with you.

Honestly some parts of the picture I do not know. However the firmament is established in Genesis, furthermore the rain water for the Noah story are supposedly stored there...above the stars.

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day

Job 26:11 mentions the Pillars of Heaven

 1 Samuel 2:8 talks of the pillars of the earth

Some people believe that the earth was encircle by a layer of water and that these are part of the waters that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.  Maybe this is true, maybe not.  It's one of those places that I can't tell you for sure what it means, because I don't know for sure.  Maybe the "waters above the firmament" is just a reference to clouds or some type of water vapor (conjecture).

So is not knowing somehow supposed to destroy my faith on what we can know?

Are you okay with the Bible using symbolic figures of speech or is that against your rules?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1300
  • Darwins +91/-11
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2013, 12:30:06 AM »
Some people believe that the earth was encircle by a layer of water and that these are part of the waters that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.  Maybe this is true, maybe not.  It's one of those places that I can't tell you for sure what it means, because I don't know for sure.  Maybe the "waters above the firmament" is just a reference to clouds or some type of water vapor (conjecture).

So is not knowing somehow supposed to destroy my faith on what we can know?

Are you okay with the Bible using symbolic figures of speech or is that against your rules?

So you decided to change from Deist to Christian without bothering to check if the claims of the bible were accurate. Great. That really inspires confidence in your judgement.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2013, 01:17:18 AM »


So is not knowing somehow supposed to destroy my faith on what we can know?

Are you okay with the Bible using symbolic figures of speech or is that against your rules?

No, I don't have rules about what I consider mythology. It just would mean that you are not a literalist.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #158 on: December 27, 2013, 02:13:38 AM »
Not the same thing at all.  If you meant to say the second, fine.  No probs at all with anyone displaying their creativity (scorpions!  Ebola!  most creative!), but please don't blame me if your original choice of words was so wide of the mark of the sentiment you wished to express.

OK, you win.  God is all about showing off.  And no, not always just to express His creativity or reveal Himself to His creation.

How does that address what I actually said there - that your original statement dramatically changed?  MUCH easier to use sarcasm than to admit that - horrors! - your original statement may not have accurately expressed what you meant to say.  Are all Christians as proud as you?

What?!?  I can't even agree with you without you arguing with me?  TROLL!

Because you were not agreeing with me.  I was not arguing either point.  I was attempting to show you how your answers changed.  Despite trying to explain that twice now, you still aren't understanding what I was saying.  I apologise, clearly I'm not getting my intent across correctly.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ivellios

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1077
  • Darwins +52/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Seek and Ye Shall Find
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #159 on: December 27, 2013, 06:57:29 AM »
Some people believe that the earth was encircle by a layer of water and that these are part of the waters that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.  Maybe this is true, maybe not.  It's one of those places that I can't tell you for sure what it means, because I don't know for sure.  Maybe the "waters above the firmament" is just a reference to clouds or some type of water vapor (conjecture).

Some people use modern day knowledge and try to make it fit into the bible. The sun and moon were under the firmament. The stars hammered into it, and the rain water above it. It rains when the windows of the Firmament open. This is why the sky is blue and why water falls from the sky. The clouds are what God clothes himself with so you cannot see him.

The thing about mythology is it's a batch of BS someone made up to answer questions people asked. See ever since primitive times people prefer to follow someone that acts like they know what's going on. While people who were intellectually honest and said, "I don't know" were ignored.

Would you rather follow someone that was right 2% of the time but were so full and sure of themselves they acted like they were right 100% of the time, or the person that was right 90% of the time, but admitted when they didn't know something. Before you answer this remember: The Bible has all the answers and Science admits when it doesn't know something.

Unless you're saying, every time it rains, it falls from ~ 13.8 - 14.5 billion light years away.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 07:06:44 AM by Ivellios »

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6573
  • Darwins +510/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2013, 07:58:21 AM »

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.

If it is indeed a picture that "portrays the universe as described in the Bible" then lay it out it in plain terms.  Show me in the Bible what corresponds to the picture, so I'll be on the same page with you.
This is what you prefer to Carl Sagan’s explanation. It is the ramblings of a primitive ans superstitious mind:

Scriptural Cosmology
The sun goes round the earth: Joshua 10:12-13 also Habakkuk 3:11
Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary.
The sun is below the sky: Psalms 19:4-6
In them he has set a tent for the sun[…] Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them…

The earth does not move:

1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 93:1; Psalms 96:10
The reason for this is that the earth is standing upon something: 2 Samuel 22:16
Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
Psalms 18:15; Psalms 102:25; Proverbs 8:27-29; Isaiah 48:13; Psalms 104:5;

Earthquakes may or may not be allowed. And the earth is set upon pillars:
Job 9:6 who shakes the earth from its place, and its pillars tremble.
Not only are there pillars supporting the earth, there are windows in heaven: Isaiah 24:18 For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
1 Samuel 2:8. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.
In fact the Earth is like a big house and constructed much the same:
Job 38:4-6 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone?
The Earth is flat:
Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
Daniel 4:10-11
Matthew 4:8

The Earth is a flat disc:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Isaiah 44:24 "I am the Lord, […] who spread out the earth
Although the flat circular Earth has pillars supporting it, there is nothing above it
Job 26: 7
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing.
No, the Earth is definitely flat:
Travel east and you will never end up in the west
Psalms 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

And it has ends
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other; Deuteronomy 33:17; 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalms 61:2
Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
The flat Earth has sides:
Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Or it migh be flat and square: Isaiah 41:9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off";

The ends of the world border on heaven: Mark 13:27 And then they will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

More about the edge of the earth
Job 26:10 He has described a circle upon the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 37:3 Under the whole heaven he lets it go, and his lightning to the corners of the earth.
It has fountains inside it:
Proverbs 8:27-29 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

The Earth is flat with a canopy:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
There are only 4 winds on Earth:
Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on the earth or sea or against any tree.

The nature of the sky
It is like a hemisphere, a dome over a flat earth, it is solid.
Job 22:14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.
Job 37:18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Not only does God walk around on the heavens, so too does the sun, or rather it runs around under the heavens.
Psalms 19:4-6 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
The nature of the stars

You can go beyond the stars if you go north where God lives: Isaiah 14:12-13 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;

Stars are small
Daniel 8:10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host of the stars it cast down to the ground and trampled upon them.
And can “fall” in outer space.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; Mark 13:25; Revelation 6:13;
Or perhaps they are thrown: Revelation 12:4

Saint Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians spells it out more clearly -- the sun and the stars are different.
1 Corinthians 15:40-41
There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another, There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

The verse here describes an actual astronomical event!

Acts 19:35 And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?
Today we call these stones meteorites. Note how the contemporary connection between meteorites and shooting stars is not made. The Bible's authors appear not to care about its use as a scientific reference by future generations.

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline lotanddaughters

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
  • Darwins +48/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • Artist: Simon Vouet (1633)
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2013, 10:15:26 AM »
PP, your logic evades me.  I thought "evolved" humans got better, not worse.  At least, that's what secular humanism teaches.

Going from being declared "it is good" to being under the curse of sin isn't evolution, but devolution.

Human intelligence has gotten better. This just happens to be the way we evolved-- it isn't because Evolution has some agenda to make us keep getting better and better. It doesn't.

If it did, by now we would be the strongest creatures who ever lived.

We would have venom.

We would have better eyesight than the eagle and mantis shrimp combined.

We would have armor.

We would live longer than tortoises.

We would have more babies in a single birth than spiders, and, like spiders, our babies would hit the ground running.

We would fly.

We would hold our breath under water longer than any land creature.




When you have intelligence like us, you don't need all that other special stuff to survive. And now, we have created tools that have helped us cover some of those areas that we were lacking in . . . a little.
Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2013, 10:20:51 AM »

So you decided to change from Deist to Christian without bothering to check if the claims of the bible were accurate. Great. That really inspires confidence in your judgement.

No, no one said it was supposed to inspire confidence in my judgment.

I have never heard of many people (though I've heard of a few) who have first studied Christianity in depth and then decided to become a Christian.  The majority of Christians didn't have to know how many books are in the OT or NT, who Paul or Peter were, the doctrine of perspicuity, or millions of other things that can be talked about regarding the Bible and Christianity.  They only had to know they were a sinner, the wages of sin is eternal spiritual death, Christ died and paid those wages in their place if they would but believe it, and they would be forgiven and receive eternal life. Then they study.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2013, 10:25:19 AM »
Some people believe that the earth was encircle by a layer of water and that these are part of the waters that flooded the earth in the days of Noah.  Maybe this is true, maybe not.  It's one of those places that I can't tell you for sure what it means, because I don't know for sure.  Maybe the "waters above the firmament" is just a reference to clouds or some type of water vapor (conjecture).

Some people use modern day knowledge and try to make it fit into the bible. The sun and moon were under the firmament. The stars hammered into it, and the rain water above it. It rains when the windows of the Firmament open. This is why the sky is blue and why water falls from the sky. The clouds are what God clothes himself with so you cannot see him.

The thing about mythology is it's a batch of BS someone made up to answer questions people asked. See ever since primitive times people prefer to follow someone that acts like they know what's going on. While people who were intellectually honest and said, "I don't know" were ignored.

Would you rather follow someone that was right 2% of the time but were so full and sure of themselves they acted like they were right 100% of the time, or the person that was right 90% of the time, but admitted when they didn't know something. Before you answer this remember: The Bible has all the answers and Science admits when it doesn't know something.

Unless you're saying, every time it rains, it falls from ~ 13.8 - 14.5 billion light years away.

I admitted I don't know, what else do you want me to say?  There are some things in the Bible that I understand, others I don't.  The ones I don't usually don't have a bearing on the concepts and doctrines I deem important - like the doctrine of God, the doctrine of Man, the doctrine of Sin, the doctrine of Justification, etc.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2013, 10:31:27 AM »

Are you a literalist or not? If you are a literalist, that picture portrays the universe as described in the Bible.

If it is indeed a picture that "portrays the universe as described in the Bible" then lay it out it in plain terms.  Show me in the Bible what corresponds to the picture, so I'll be on the same page with you.
This is what you prefer to Carl Sagan’s explanation. It is the ramblings of a primitive ans superstitious mind:

Scriptural Cosmology
The sun goes round the earth: Joshua 10:12-13 also Habakkuk 3:11
Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary.
The sun is below the sky: Psalms 19:4-6
In them he has set a tent for the sun[…] Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them…

The earth does not move:

1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 93:1; Psalms 96:10
The reason for this is that the earth is standing upon something: 2 Samuel 22:16
Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
Psalms 18:15; Psalms 102:25; Proverbs 8:27-29; Isaiah 48:13; Psalms 104:5;

Earthquakes may or may not be allowed. And the earth is set upon pillars:
Job 9:6 who shakes the earth from its place, and its pillars tremble.
Not only are there pillars supporting the earth, there are windows in heaven: Isaiah 24:18 For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
1 Samuel 2:8. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.
In fact the Earth is like a big house and constructed much the same:
Job 38:4-6 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone?
The Earth is flat:
Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
Daniel 4:10-11
Matthew 4:8

The Earth is a flat disc:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Isaiah 44:24 "I am the Lord, […] who spread out the earth
Although the flat circular Earth has pillars supporting it, there is nothing above it
Job 26: 7
He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth upon nothing.
No, the Earth is definitely flat:
Travel east and you will never end up in the west
Psalms 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

And it has ends
Deuteronomy 28:64 And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other; Deuteronomy 33:17; 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalms 61:2
Job 28:24 For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.
The flat Earth has sides:
Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Or it migh be flat and square: Isaiah 41:9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, "You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off";

The ends of the world border on heaven: Mark 13:27 And then they will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

More about the edge of the earth
Job 26:10 He has described a circle upon the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 37:3 Under the whole heaven he lets it go, and his lightning to the corners of the earth.
It has fountains inside it:
Proverbs 8:27-29 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

The Earth is flat with a canopy:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
There are only 4 winds on Earth:
Revelation 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on the earth or sea or against any tree.

The nature of the sky
It is like a hemisphere, a dome over a flat earth, it is solid.
Job 22:14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.
Job 37:18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Not only does God walk around on the heavens, so too does the sun, or rather it runs around under the heavens.
Psalms 19:4-6 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
The nature of the stars

You can go beyond the stars if you go north where God lives: Isaiah 14:12-13 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;

Stars are small
Daniel 8:10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven; and some of the host of the stars it cast down to the ground and trampled upon them.
And can “fall” in outer space.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; Mark 13:25; Revelation 6:13;
Or perhaps they are thrown: Revelation 12:4

Saint Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians spells it out more clearly -- the sun and the stars are different.
1 Corinthians 15:40-41
There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another, There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

The verse here describes an actual astronomical event!

Acts 19:35 And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?
Today we call these stones meteorites. Note how the contemporary connection between meteorites and shooting stars is not made. The Bible's authors appear not to care about its use as a scientific reference by future generations.

Graybeard, given your lack of knowledge of writing styles, figurative speech, etc. and your propensity to lift verses out of context, we could spend days on your monumental post.  You even bring a verse quoting worshipers of Artemis as if this is somehow indicative of Biblical thought, when all the Bible did was just report what the pagans were saying. 

I commend you on having either a good knowledge Bible verses or having an extremely handy "Atheism for Dummies" handbook.

If I thought you would be open to understanding the verses in their context, I'd be happy to discuss with you.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #165 on: December 27, 2013, 10:35:15 AM »
PP, your logic evades me.  I thought "evolved" humans got better, not worse.  At least, that's what secular humanism teaches.

Going from being declared "it is good" to being under the curse of sin isn't evolution, but devolution.

Human intelligence has gotten better. This just happens to be the way we evolved-- it isn't because Evolution has some agenda to make us keep getting better and better. It doesn't.

If it did, by now we would be the strongest creatures who ever lived.

We would have venom.

We would have better eyesight than the eagle and mantis shrimp combined.

We would have armor.

We would live longer than tortoises.

We would have more babies in a single birth than spiders, and, like spiders, our babies would hit the ground running.

We would fly.

We would hold our breath under water longer than any land creature.




When you have intelligence like us, you don't need all that other special stuff to survive. And now, we have created tools that have helped us cover some of those areas that we were lacking in . . . a little.

Ha! So poor humans only get their intelligences evolved?  Not the physical?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2013, 10:37:39 AM »

Graybeard, given your lack of knowledge of writing styles, figurative speech, etc. and your propensity to lift verses out of context, we could spend days on your monumental post.  You even bring a verse quoting worshipers of Artemis as if this is somehow indicative of Biblical thought, when all the Bible did was just report what the pagans were saying. 

I commend you on having either a good knowledge Bible verses or having an extremely handy "Atheism for Dummies" handbook.

If I thought you would be open to understanding the verses in their context, I'd be happy to discuss with you.

So how do we know which parts of the bible are meant to be interpreted literally, and which parts are meant to be interpreted metaphorically? 

Offline lotanddaughters

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 612
  • Darwins +48/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • Artist: Simon Vouet (1633)
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2013, 10:38:32 AM »
PP, your logic evades me.  I thought "evolved" humans got better, not worse.  At least, that's what secular humanism teaches.

Going from being declared "it is good" to being under the curse of sin isn't evolution, but devolution.

Human intelligence has gotten better. This just happens to be the way we evolved-- it isn't because Evolution has some agenda to make us keep getting better and better. It doesn't.

If it did, by now we would be the strongest creatures who ever lived.

We would have venom.

We would have better eyesight than the eagle and mantis shrimp combined.

We would have armor.

We would live longer than tortoises.

We would have more babies in a single birth than spiders, and, like spiders, our babies would hit the ground running.

We would fly.

We would hold our breath under water longer than any land creature.




When you have intelligence like us, you don't need all that other special stuff to survive. And now, we have created tools that have helped us cover some of those areas that we were lacking in . . . a little.

Ha! So poor humans only get their intelligences evolved?  Not the physical?

The physical? Well, just enough to keep us around.

Oh yeah! I forgot to mention that we would also be able to grow severed limbs back!
Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6573
  • Darwins +510/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2013, 11:10:07 AM »
Graybeard, given your lack of knowledge of writing styles, figurative speech, etc.
I, sir, will have you know that my knowledge of writing styles, figurative speech, etc. is far above average.

Unfortunately, for you, my knowledge of the lengths to which so-called Bible-believers will go to apologise what was written by bronze age peasants is equally good. There is no doubt at all that those who wrote and read all that garbage above, firmly believed it was true and literal. It is this upon which your house is built.

By even trying to explain, you are merely updating your god so that he coincides with your ideas. So basically you are creating a god to worship.

Quote
and your propensity to lift verses out of context, we could spend days on your monumental post.
Only because you, and only you, have a magic decoding ring that tells you what is literal, what is symbolic, which is allegorical and what can be dismissed. You know as well as I that all the supernatural events mentioned in the Bible are "symbolic" but you believe some of them. You believe in a Resurrection! And yet you find it unreasonable that the earth could be supported on pillars! 

Quote
You even bring a verse quoting worshipers of Artemis as if this is somehow indicative of Biblical thought, when all the Bible did was just report what the pagans were saying.
Two points there: (i) It shows the mentality and scientific knowledge of the day (ii) There was no correction to the belief of the Artimesisans, was there? All this goes to prove that Yahweh had absolutely no idea what he had created or how it worked.

Now, if the TV repairman came round to your house and told you that the goblin that paints the pictures on your screen had died and that you needed a new goblin... what would you think of the repairman? 

Quote
I commend you on having either a good knowledge Bible verses
Like most atheists, this is the case. We know far more than the average Christian rube. When a Christian makes a claim, unlike them, I check it. When I check it, I record it, because the same weak arguments keep appearing, and this saves time.

Quote
If I thought you would be open to understanding the verses in their context, I'd be happy to discuss with you.
If I thought you could explain anything sensibly, I'd listen.

Oh, OK then: try this one:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

So, what about the stars falling from heaven? How's that work then?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2013, 11:19:26 AM »

So how do we know which parts of the bible are meant to be interpreted literally, and which parts are meant to be interpreted metaphorically?

Good questions Quesi. 

First, become familiar with the entire Bible.  Get to know the various books by asking, who was this written to (which persons, tribes, nations), why was the author writing it, what are the main points the author is trying to get across, and what was happening in the countries surrounding the author and his audience.

Second, if you are not familiar with various styles of literature in general, do a little research.  What makes poetry "poetic"?  What makes historical narrative what it is?  What are the elements of allegorical writing?  How do symbolism and figurative speech fit in?  Ask those kinds of questions about secular writing, then apply the same questions to the Bible.

Third, remember that you are in a 21st century Western mindset.  The mindset of Moses 4,000 years ago was different from the mindset of David 3,000 years ago, which is different from the mindset of the Apostle Paul 2,000 years ago.

Fourth, even secular writers and liberal Christian academians wrote about about the various styles of writing found in the Bible, so if you  aren't open to reading what Christian scholars say about the Bible and which parts are metaphorical and which are literal (you'll find some disagreement even among Christians but that's not necessarily a bad thing), then go to these non-Christian sources.

Fifthly, if you do these things, you will have a body of information on which to make informed decisions about what should be taken literally and what should be taken metaphorically.  But as you continue to grow in knowledge, don't be surprised if at some point you might change your opinion on certain passages as to whether they are to be taken literally or metaphorically.  And don't be afraid to grow in your thinking and understanding.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • Darwins +7/-38
  • "Are you casting asparagus on my cooking?"-Curly
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #170 on: December 27, 2013, 11:20:41 AM »
Oh yeah! I forgot to mention that we would also be able to grow severed limbs back!

So I think I'll start a new website:  Why Won't Evolution Grow Severed Limbs Back?  WWEGSL
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6295
  • Darwins +729/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #171 on: December 27, 2013, 11:38:31 AM »
Oh yeah! I forgot to mention that we would also be able to grow severed limbs back!

So I think I'll start a new website:  Why Won't Evolution Grow Severed Limbs Back?  WWEGSL

We have the answer to that one already. If you aren't a skink or a starfish, it doesn't' bother right now. But give us a couple hundred more million years. Things might change.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6295
  • Darwins +729/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #172 on: December 27, 2013, 11:40:25 AM »

So how do we know which parts of the bible are meant to be interpreted literally, and which parts are meant to be interpreted metaphorically?

Good questions Quesi. 

First, become familiar with the entire Bible.  Get to know the various books by asking, who was this written to (which persons, tribes, nations), why was the author writing it, what are the main points the author is trying to get across, and what was happening in the countries surrounding the author and his audience.

Second, if you are not familiar with various styles of literature in general, do a little research.  What makes poetry "poetic"?  What makes historical narrative what it is?  What are the elements of allegorical writing?  How do symbolism and figurative speech fit in?  Ask those kinds of questions about secular writing, then apply the same questions to the Bible.

Third, remember that you are in a 21st century Western mindset.  The mindset of Moses 4,000 years ago was different from the mindset of David 3,000 years ago, which is different from the mindset of the Apostle Paul 2,000 years ago.

Fourth, even secular writers and liberal Christian academians wrote about about the various styles of writing found in the Bible, so if you  aren't open to reading what Christian scholars say about the Bible and which parts are metaphorical and which are literal (you'll find some disagreement even among Christians but that's not necessarily a bad thing), then go to these non-Christian sources.

Fifthly, if you do these things, you will have a body of information on which to make informed decisions about what should be taken literally and what should be taken metaphorically.  But as you continue to grow in knowledge, don't be surprised if at some point you might change your opinion on certain passages as to whether they are to be taken literally or metaphorically.  And don't be afraid to grow in your thinking and understanding.

You forgot one:

Sixth, my version is absolutely correct, and anyone that disagrees with me is wrong. I know this because I am right. So if another christian comes here and says something different, then they are obviously not a true christian. Don't listen to them. Depend on me. I've got it right. If you don't believe me, just ask. Me.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6573
  • Darwins +510/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The concept of sin is our biggest roadblock
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2013, 11:45:45 AM »
So how do we know which parts of the bible are meant to be interpreted literally, and which parts are meant to be interpreted metaphorically?
The answer is simple.

First of all, dismiss everything that all Christians believed from AD1 onwards - they did not know that hell was "separation from God" they thought it was real, this is because they were primitive and ill-educated - Ha! How stupid can you be?

Next bear in mind that those who wrote down the stories that were to comprise the Bible were primitive and uneducated - they did not always grasp the “figurative”, “symbolic” "metaphorical" and “literal” aspects. They believed what was in the Bible. The words that they wrote seemed good to them and an explanation for everything.

As we pass through time, it is the same. Those in the future will laugh at us believing that "Hell is a state of separation from God." So, the answer is: "It is down to you." You can read as much or as little as you wish for you do not know how accurate any of the writings are nor if you have read them all. You may then, subjectively, assign to any argument within the writing the weight you wish to put upon it, so as to agree with your original supposition (i.e. what you thought all along.)

Indeed, it may be that you change your mind, but that is OK. If you have honestly believed the wrong thing, God will forgive you.

It is of course unfortunate that all of Christendom does have different ideas and that these all compete. No two people, not matter how learned or not will mark the same set of passages as “figurative”, “symbolic” "metaphorical" and “literal”.

Do not worry too much about this: your idea of what any god did is just as valid as anyone else’s, though it’s nice if, like the pope, the Taliban or an ayatollah, a lot of people believe you.

Oh, and with all that “interpreting with the aid of the background” you’re going to do, don’t worry if some other scholar comes along and rubbishes it – just say you never liked him anyway and he got something wrong in the past.

All this research allows you to be wrong with much greater authority. And you should always consider that anyone who believes that men were made from mud, the whole earth was flooded to a depth of 30,000 feet, and dead men rise in their hundreds will believe almost anything.

Mind you, there are some things that are difficult. The nativity story... Herod being dead 4 years, yet ordering a massacre we know did not take place. The Manger at Bethlehem when, at that time, it has been shown there was no "Bethlehem" there.

If anyone challenges things like this, ask for the entire life-history of the archaeologist, and the personal details of anyone who sponsored him, then question his methods.

I hope this helps.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce