Author Topic: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?  (Read 7047 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #203 on: January 23, 2014, 08:00:04 AM »
You say that an invisible force called evolution created us, and continues to progress us forward.  While there is no intelligence behind evolution, just an invisible drive that somehow propels us to live.  That same force has somehow given us an ability to enjoy things and be sad about things, create music, art, etc?   So far, it seems like less faith is required to believe in a designer, than an undetectable force behind evolution. Since it's intelligent design that we observe with everything else in life, it only makes sense to belief in a designer of nature.

This is where I check out of your well-meaning diatribe.

Whether something requires less or more "faith" is not an indicator of truth. The answers that the Bible supposedly supplies are supplied by Eastern religions as well, but a different way. The underlying philosophical "answers" in the New Testament are from ancient Greek philosophers, not Jesus.

I don't think the Bible answers anything straight, because it's all derived from conflicting theories in philosophy.

Evolution doesn't have a forward direction. Mammals ARE intelligently designed. We have brains, and this intelligence has been driving our self selection.

The Bible gives us no answers to the origins of life, and gets it WRONG.

The Bible is all about man's need to keep law and order, by using pretend carrots and pretend sticks. The book of Job is an example of a schizophrenic philosophical meltdown. The Bible gets no better after Job.

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it only makes sense to belief in a designer of nature.

You can believe it makes sense, but science has always shown that the truth is counter-intuitive. Find me one discovery in science that was not preceded by people believing something wrong, beforehand. This is way more true in the medical sciences. Prior to discovery, we usually believe in leeches and blood letting.

The truth in Bible came from people who believed that the sun and moon came out of boxes, where the 4 winds came from. Also, they believed that the earth was on a platform, above a watery abyss.

There is an outside chance that what you say about the soul and consciousness is true, but it in no way validates the Christian faith above the Greek religions, or the Indian ones.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #204 on: January 23, 2014, 08:23:41 AM »
You say that an invisible force called evolution created us, and continues to progress us forward.

Evolution is more of a visible process, rather than an invisible force.
You can observe it, and it follows a simple process of "animals that breed pass on their genes".

While there is no intelligence behind evolution, just an invisible drive that somehow propels us to live.

It does not propel us to live, instead, evolution simply explains the diversity of life.
Potentially evolution could allow a set of behaviors that make a species incredibly willing to live (well, its already happened, look at virtually every species), but that is just one part of it.

That same force has somehow given us an ability to enjoy things and be sad about things, create music, art, etc?

As species get more intelligent, emotive abilities get enhanced, and artistic skills start to arise.
So yes, it did that.

So far, it seems like less faith is required to believe in a designer, than an undetectable force behind evolution.

In terms of faith.

Natural processes that can be observed<<<<<<<Supernatural concepts that have no backing and cannot be observed.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

Since it's intelligent design that we observe with everything else in life, it only makes sense to belief in a designer of nature.

The issue with intelligent design, is that animals are not very well designed.
If mere humans can design better creatures, and humans themselves are horrendously flawed, then the designer is either more retarded than most humans (not hard to accomplish), or does not exist.

Look at most species for example.
Their eyes to be precise.

There is a rather nasty layer of nerve that blocks out some light, and a large bundle of the stuff that makes a "blind spot".
Humans, apparently gods favorite species, has such a nerve.

Cuttlefish, in their relative irrelevances to an omnipotent being, have no such layer, instead, it is behind the rods and cones, allowing superior vision, and no blind spot.

All cephalopods have said eyes, its almost as if...Jeese...as if that type of eye evolved!

I can list more stupid "designs" if you want.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #205 on: January 23, 2014, 05:42:58 PM »
When we list examples of stupid "designs" from nature to show that there was no planning or intelligence involved, theists say that the designs used to be perfect, but are not anymore because of sin.

You can't win an argument with an opponent who is allowed to make up any old sh!t without evidence, and call it an answer. Wrestling with a pig in mud comes to mind.

In nature, an organism does not have to be perfect, or beautiful or even nice. It only has to live long enough to reproduce. As far as evolution is concerned, all the intangibles that theists say had to come from an intelligent designer--a beautiful form, a bright color, a pleasing scent, a lovely sounding voice, altruism, ability to do the rhumba-- nothing but bits of reproductive gravy. And lots of time to develop those traits.

That is why simple organisms don't waste energy on any of that. They reproduce just fine without the need for a sexy outfit, dinner and a movie first. ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #206 on: January 23, 2014, 06:24:16 PM »
why do you assume a ghost in the machine?

The ghost in the machine is assumed, because historically, Plato invented the soul, to explain thought. Back then, people had no idea what was in the brain, so they thought that thought came from various organs in the body. Jesus thought that that the heart was a thinking organ:

Nowadays, understanding that the brain has 100 billion neurons, we might give it the benefit of the doubt, and believe that it was actually capable of thought. So, our belief in the ghost in the machine, is rooted is history from the ignorant Greeks.

Yes, the brain was thought to be the mechanism to cool the blood.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2014, 01:52:06 AM »

The issue is you believe everything was made by god, whether complex or not, so it doesn't matter how complex something is, because even if it isn't complex you say it was made by god. This renders the complexity argument as redundant and your use of complexity as meaningless.

But what the bible points to is a being that transcends the complexity that we see here.  Complexity actually becomes something entirely different in another dimension.  So to speak in terms of complexity of life on earth is not the same as saying that God is complex (which I believe He must be).  But organism complexity is relative, because even the single cell is a very complex thing.   
So life starts at complex and just gets more complex and fascinating.  I would not intuitively look at life, especially with the microbiological advances of today, and think "oh all this is happening on it's own without any instruction".  I've got to think that these life forms, from the least to the greatest of complex organisms, have been infused with a software program to drive them to do what they do.  It doesn't make sense otherwise.  If that "software" is really there, then it makes perfect sense to wonder about the intelligence who coded the organism.
So my point is that if a person believes that there is at least a possibility of intelligent design behind all this, it opens the door to the possibility of what many call God.   Atheism shuts down that possibility right from the start (so it seems).   



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I base this on the idea that god is also a soul/spirit. If god has always existed, then he can't be complex because complexity points to a deisgner. Therefore, a soul/spirit cannot be complex. However, you believe soul/spirits are created by god, so even when we point to something that isn't complex, you still see need for a desginer.
The idea is that God is eternal and operates in a dimension very different than this dimension where we are defining complexity.  Therefore the idea that God cannot be complex because He wasn't created, is an invalid argument outside of this dimension.
But to keep it simple, if God is who the bible says He is, then He has always existed and was not created.  If then, He is the Author of creation, then He made the rules, and is not bound by the rules or laws of nature that we observe in this dimension.
   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 01:54:42 AM by Patrick Henry »

Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2014, 03:48:08 AM »
I don't know about anything else, but the idea of a designer seems to be an hindrance to an argument more than anything else. here's the problems -

1. We can't tell is something really has been designed - there's no marker indicating it - so it is a very subjective idea and one that a majority of scientists don't accept.
The building blocks of life seem to be coded with information that tells them what to do.  I find that very interesting and it seems like a marker to me.   
I suppose from a purely scientific point of view it enters the realm of subjectivity.  But science poses many hypotheses along the way.   It seems that the God hypothesis is not taken very kindly, starting in the classroom.  So many up and coming scientists have that drilled out of them right from the beginning.   Profs who suggest ID are often not treated very well either.  All this seems very hypocritical in an educational system where open thought and diversity of opinion is supposed to be valued and respected.
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2. That something or indeed all of nature has been designed seems to be a proposition for which there is no value. How does such a proposition help us in scientific research, in medical science?

There has been value for healthy living that is derived from the bible, but I'm not convinced that a designer needs to give us value in scientific research.  But He does if we follow His word.  In the age of focusing on preventative medicine through healthy living, the bible was ahead of its time.  Studies have shown that gratitude has been recently shown to improve a person's overall happiness and health.  Forgiveness can lower a person's stress level, which has obvious health benefits.  Jesus encouraged people not to worry.  We all know what too much worry can do to a person.  There are also health benefits from circumcision, avoiding drunkenness, pork, shellfish, to name a few. 
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3. It certainly makes the designer look far from benign. Look at some of the microorganisms that it purportedly designed - bugs that can and do kill us. Then there are the snakes, malaria - the lists is endless. If these are designed by a designer, then it certainly doesn't relate to a loving god.
No doubt this world has lots of trouble awaiting every person, eventually.
In Romans 8, the apostle Paul explains that when we put our hope in Christ “our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.” In other words, our troubles, including disease, are not pointless if we turn to Christ.  They will also be extremely small compared to the joy of eternity with God where all things are made right.  No more suffering and pain is what the Christian looks forward to.  In the mean time we are to rule over and subdue our planet.  Which means we have a responsibility to take care of our earth and advance ourselves and to work toward making our lives and other people's lives better.
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4. In order to design such as is claimed by ID, the designer is going to have to be more complex than the things it designed and, consequently, is also going to need a designer. In fact there is going to have to be a chain of designers because in each step we have to design a new designer.
see my reply #207
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5. Souls are simpler than material organisms? How can we know that? Souls are going to have to be pretty complex as they are going to have to collect all the information in our brains and store it is a way that it is still accessible. Without that information, an individual ceases to exist even if there is a soul with his name on it. So a soul has to be non-material but capable of fast and accurate copying of the patterns of neurons in the brain and recreating this pattern in a working form right at the moment of death. That is some design and some tough job. Souls are  much more complicated than one might think.
I don't believe they are.
see my reply #207
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6. No one has launched a search for the designer. No matter how good our beliefs in one particular god are, if we have not real evidence that the god exists it might end up not being the real designer. Research needs to be started to try and identify the designer.

So those are some of the implications of ID that are not really mentioned. The fact is that ID cannot link the supposed designer to any particular god without some evidence. Given that we know that things are evolving it is not even clear how it might help to know that a designer was at work.

Patrick, do you have answers to these point?
I suppose the research for the real designer is where religious debates begin.  But I think that the biblical God has a lot to offer those who are willing.  I've benefited greatly from God.  I mean that I recognize that my life has had many ups and downs and that to me God gives me the one answer that I am the most unwilling to accept (even though I do accept).  Which is that He is in charge no matter what.  Even if my life is terribly painful, I accept that He has all authority over me just as a carpenter has authority to burn a chair that He is done with.  Or to tear it apart and turn it into something else. 
No one believes in God without that kind of humility toward his place in life.  I suppose a few may believe, but still shake their fist at Him in contempt.   

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2014, 06:07:06 AM »

The issue is you believe everything was made by god, whether complex or not, so it doesn't matter how complex something is, because even if it isn't complex you say it was made by god. This renders the complexity argument as redundant and your use of complexity as meaningless.

But what the bible points to is a being that transcends the complexity that we see here.  Complexity actually becomes something entirely different in another dimension.  So to speak in terms of complexity of life on earth is not the same as saying that God is complex (which I believe He must be).

Honestly, are you just making this up as you go along? This is a classic case of special pleading. No really, this is a fantastic example of it. You take a concept, in this instance complexity, say it is a signpost for ID, then apply this same concept to god but then remove all meaning of complexity to get god off the hook!

"Complexity is actually something entirely different in another dimension." - I genuinely laughed out loud when I read that. What is complexity in another dimension then? Is it the colour pink? Perhaps it's a jealous cloud with sparkly monkey socks attached? Or maybe it's the opposite and it's simplicity.

Really, for a thread designed for you to provide evidence, all you do is make stuff up. Why don't you do us and yourself a favour and stop this pretence that you have valid arguments for your belief that can be convincing for others, when all you actually have is faith based on personal experience? Let's face it, even when we point out a glaring contradiction, you just wipe clear the meaning of words to nullify it and therefore get your belief off the hook. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, but by the way you bypass refutations without so much as a by your leave, I think it's yourself.

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But organism complexity is relative, because even the single cell is a very complex thing.   
So life starts at complex and just gets more complex and fascinating.  I would not intuitively look at life, especially with the microbiological advances of today, and think "oh all this is happening on it's own without any instruction".  I've got to think that these life forms, from the least to the greatest of complex organisms, have been infused with a software program to drive them to do what they do.  It doesn't make sense otherwise.  If that "software" is really there, then it makes perfect sense to wonder about the intelligence who coded the organism.
So my point is that if a person believes that there is at least a possibility of intelligent design behind all this, it opens the door to the possibility of what many call God.   Atheism shuts down that possibility right from the start (so it seems).   

Now an argument from ignorance. Atheism doesn't shut down the possibility. Atheism is just not believing gods exist. The possibility is not dismissed, the fact that god can't be shown to exist or not exist is at least my reason for shutting down any pointless maundering by theists.

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I base this on the idea that god is also a soul/spirit. If god has always existed, then he can't be complex because complexity points to a deisgner. Therefore, a soul/spirit cannot be complex. However, you believe soul/spirits are created by god, so even when we point to something that isn't complex, you still see need for a desginer.
The idea is that God is eternal and operates in a dimension very different than this dimension where we are defining complexity.  Therefore the idea that God cannot be complex because He wasn't created, is an invalid argument outside of this dimension.
But to keep it simple, if God is who the bible says He is, then He has always existed and was not created.  If then, He is the Author of creation, then He made the rules, and is not bound by the rules or laws of nature that we observe in this dimension.
 

If god made the rules then he could've designed things in any way he liked. That isn't intelligent design because that would require parameters that need adhering to. No, this is just random design where god does things however he damn well likes.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2014, 02:22:19 PM »
If life is coded by a creator,there is no disease,parasite,virus or outside force that can damage that code. Since there is all that,all you have is sin to blame,pretty lame
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #211 on: January 26, 2014, 09:21:17 PM »
The building blocks of life seem to be coded with information that tells them what to do.  I find that very interesting and it seems like a marker to me.   
I suppose from a purely scientific point of view it enters the realm of subjectivity.  But science poses many hypotheses along the way.   It seems that the God hypothesis is not taken very kindly, starting in the classroom.  So many up and coming scientists have that drilled out of them right from the beginning.   Profs who suggest ID are often not treated very well either.  All this seems very hypocritical in an educational system where open thought and diversity of opinion is supposed to be valued and respected.
 

I decided to only read Point 1, since there are enough errors in it to write a small book.

The reason why ID cannot be entertained scientifically, is that there is no way to prove that it happens, probably even if it did. If a single scientist had written a paper showing how ID could be detected, then we might have an academic path to follow.

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It seems that the God hypothesis is not taken very kindly, starting in the classroom.

There is nothing to teach in the classroom about God doing arbitrary things.

Teacher : What holds up the moon, kiddies?
Kiddies : God?
Teacher : Correct.

Teacher: Why does Sodium Hydroxide react with Hydrogen Chloride, kiddies?
Kiddies : God?
Teacher: God what?
Kiddies: God dod it!
Teacher: That's not very good grammar, kiddies.
Kiddies: I thought God would correct my grammar.
Teacher: God wont correct everything, you know!
Kiddies: You just told us the God did everything, for the last 10 years.
Teacher: There are some things we must learn for ourselves, or God will get mad.
Kiddies: I have faith that God will do everything, and correct everything for me. It's scientific.
Teacher: No, there are some things which God does, and some things which God doesn't do.
Kiddies: How do we tell the difference?
Teacher: There are no set rules, but just believe what you are told, by the pope.
Kiddies: Has he met God?
Teacher: Back to class: What is Sodium Hydroxide, is it a mineral or a vegetable?
Kiddies: Is it a miasma?
Teacher: I gave you two options, you were supposed to pick one.
Kiddies: What is an option? I was channelling God, and he told me it were a miasma.
Teacher: You can't channel God. That is proven because you got the answer wrong.
Kiddies: How do you know?
Teacher: I'm like the pope. I just say arbitrary things, and punish people I don't like.
Kiddies: That doesn't sound fair, teacher.
Teacher: Life isn't fair. Why is this kiddies?
Kiddies: Because morons like you are in charge?

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So many up and coming scientists have that drilled out of them right from the beginning.

That's right. So they can do science, rather than blathering on about useless crap.

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Profs who suggest ID are often not treated very well either.

That's because they are not suggesting anything, and have no evidence, or framework to produce evidence.

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All this seems very hypocritical in an educational system where open thought and diversity of opinion is supposed to be valued and respected.

Try basing your education system on not finding out what causes anything, and see how hypocritical it looks after a century.





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Offline wheels5894

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #212 on: January 27, 2014, 05:10:08 AM »
Well is there is supposed to be a designer I imagine the 'creation ID scientists' have been looking no only for that creator designer but also the method it employed to do the creating. That's so isn't it, Patrick? So an you link us to research on that, please?

If you want to define things as too complex to be accounted for by evolution can you say what is the precise definition used in determining this? I mean, some things so described are the tiny assemblies inside cells but then we have whole bodies that are, at best, a bit botched which suggests that the creator designer got bored after doing a bit of work.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #213 on: January 27, 2014, 05:34:38 AM »
If life is coded by a creator,there is no disease,parasite,virus or outside force that can damage that code. Since there is all that,all you have is sin to blame,pretty lame

Come to think of it.

Talking about "codes". (Or, what the OP thinks are codes...)

Viruses tend to "code" themselves. (Well, not really, but the OP would say they must of..)

As viruses must have the correct series of genetic instructions to affect a specific cell (for example, a virus that has instructions to attack a dog's cells is harmless to humans), and yet viruses mutate all the time to affect humans (swine flu, bird flu, HIV, etc).

Thus viruses are god?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: for Patrick Henry - what evidence is there that god really exists?
« Reply #214 on: January 27, 2014, 11:00:01 AM »
Back to the future-- people did "ID science" ie magic, for thousands of years with nothing to show for it. Nothing. Sometimes praying to god cured the person of the plague, and sometimes it did not. Sometimes a sacrifice stopped the volcano, and sometimes not. No way to know anything for sure with "ID science" ie magic.

Then people started doing real science, et voila! Amazing how we now know how to cure the plague and we now know what causes volcanoes. Enter the modern world, where most of us live long enough and are healthy enough to sit around and speculate about "ID science" using space age technology to communicate our ideas. 

Why would anyone think that "ID science" ie magic, would show us anything new if it gave no results for the previous 10,000 years of human existence?

Any further reason to explore magic, harbinger?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.