Author Topic: If neither the blind boy nor his parents sinned, why did Jesus have to come?  (Read 1604 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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I am asking in this clear way MM so I can get more than a one sentence response  :-\
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

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The world of the Christian should be exempt from this corruption,for even if you sin,though not right  ,it is forgiven,by the sacrifice. At the very least no illness should befall a Christian,because the sins they commit are paid for by Jesus. If the sin is paid for and sin causes illness,does the cancer stricken Christian  not believe properly? or is Sin not really paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus?

 The only way the Christian can get cancer is if he really is not a Christian. If he is truly a Christian the sins that he commits should not result in illness. Do you believe that the sins of non-Christians can make the Christian ill? if yes please explain

I have explained to you the Christian theology on this matter. The assertions you make are incorrect from a theological perspective.  If you believe differently, so be it.
explained where,,,in one sentence answers?

In several posts in this thread. Essentially, the bible does not teach that Jesus victory over sin means an immediate removal of the effects of sin. What it does teach is that when Jesus returns as God's judge, my sins will be pardoned.

You seem quite certain it means something else, but clearly this is nothing other than opinion. if you think the bible teaches otherwise, please demonstrate this.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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That was the clear answer I was looking for,still I don't understand how you think sin causes illness,could you elaborate more please?

 Also is it only (in your opinion) will you be judged long after death upon the return of Jesus or will Jesus be at the pearly gates waiting?

 An awful lot of what Christianity clings to is the return of Jesus
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 08:23:42 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline magicmiles

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That was the clear answer I was looking for,still I don't understand how you think sin causes illness,could you elaborate more please?

Just go and read Genesis for yourself.  In fact, read the whole bible, if you haven't already.

You won't accept it, I do. Its that simple really.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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That was the clear answer I was looking for,still I don't understand how you think sin causes illness,could you elaborate more please?

Just go and read Genesis for yourself.  In fact, read the whole bible, if you haven't already.

You won't accept it, I do. Its that simple really.
fair enough
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Offline Jag

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Am I to understand that you ARE a bible literalist?

Pretty much. I thought that was pretty clear.

That doesn't mean I abandon the rules of context, and it doesn't mean I ignore the various literary devices used throughout the bible.

The parts of the bible which I believe are meant to be taken literally, I believe.

I realized last night why this hasn't been clear to me - "literalist" and "pretty much" are somewhat contradictory. Literalist doesn't strike me as a word with much flexibility, so your "pretty much" position is actually rather ambiguous.

I realize that you are probably offended when you see references to the magic decoder ring that we joke about needing to correctly interpret the Bible, but you yourself are guilty of saying the exact kind of things (see the bold remark above) that raise the question of your process of interpretation. And you never answer it.

I'm not even saying that you do it "because you know it's bullshit" - I do believe that you actually believe this stuff. But your refusal to address this particular question intrigues me.
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Offline median

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In several posts in this thread. Essentially, the bible does not teach that Jesus victory over sin means an immediate removal of the effects of sin. What it does teach is that when Jesus returns as God's judge, my sins will be pardoned.

You seem quite certain it means something else, but clearly this is nothing other than opinion. if you think the bible teaches otherwise, please demonstrate this.

There isn't anything but opinion when you are trying to discuss theology b/c theology is pure FICTION and superstition. One can defend nearly any position they want from those pages b/c they contradict each other. This is why thousands of sects quibble over it like kids arguing about Santa Claus' 'nature' or what he will do next. You have assumed the bible is "the word of God" from the outset and that is the issue.

My question to you (will you avoid it?): Is it rational when a Muslim practices this same method of pre-commitment with you?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jdawg70

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That doesn't sound right - didn't Lucifer and like 1/3 of the angels rebel against god prior to Adam and Eve's existence?

Yes. But we're talking about the world we inhabit, and humanity.
So that raises a set of interesting questions:
1) So the nature of sin is...realm-specific and species-specific?
2) Do angels have disease and die?  Did their rebellion instantiate sin into heaven?  If not, why did that apply to humanity?
3) Could sin have been eliminated by god simply choosing, of his own free will, to not have any expectations whatsoever and therefore eliminate the possibility of being rebelled against?
4) Does sin apply to other animals?  If so, is that the reason that they also suffer from death and disease.  If not, why do they suffer from death and disease?
5) How would one go about finding answers to any of these questions?
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Offline Jag

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I just realized that I've been making an assumption that might not actually be right.

MM, do you believe that God is benevolent? This question is not random, nor am I setting you up for a follow up in which I pounce on you - I'm genuinely curious.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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That doesn't sound right - didn't Lucifer and like 1/3 of the angels rebel against god prior to Adam and Eve's existence?

Yes. But we're talking about the world we inhabit, and humanity.
So that raises a set of interesting questions:
1) So the nature of sin is...realm-specific and species-specific?
2) Do angels have disease and die?  Did their rebellion instantiate sin into heaven?  If not, why did that apply to humanity?
3) Could sin have been eliminated by god simply choosing, of his own free will, to not have any expectations whatsoever and therefore eliminate the possibility of being rebelled against?
4) Does sin apply to other animals?  If so, is that the reason that they also suffer from death and disease.  If not, why do they suffer from death and disease?
5) How would one go about finding answers to any of these questions?
I have had a few pets die of cancer,no soul,no understanding or cognition to be able to sin(in a theists opinion) yet they die a sin related death. As MM stated sin causes disease,non-souled animals die of disease,hmmmm...Can chimps killing other chimps for food and territory be considered sin?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

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I'll try to get back to this discussion after Christmas.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Ivellios

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That doesn't sound right - didn't Lucifer and like 1/3 of the angels rebel against god prior to Adam and Eve's existence?

Yes. But we're talking about the world we inhabit, and humanity.

You do know the place they were banished to, right? Satan is the lord of the Earth. Remember all those Demons that Jesus would cast out of people? They weren't banished to some other realm, but prehabiting the Earth before God made A&E.

Offline MadBunny

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You do know the place they were banished to, right? Satan is the lord of the Earth.

Which means that god made the garden *in* hell?  Nice location god.  Real impressive.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline magicmiles

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I realized last night why this hasn't been clear to me - "literalist" and "pretty much" are somewhat contradictory. Literalist doesn't strike me as a word with much flexibility, so your "pretty much" position is actually rather ambiguous.

I don't mean it to be. There are many people who consider themselves Christians who consider pretty much all of the bible stories are meant to be just that - stories, not to be taken literally. I am distinguishing myself from that, but I wanted to stress that there are some parts of the bible which I think are clearly intended as metaphor etc.


I realize that you are probably offended when you see references to the magic decoder ring that we joke about needing to correctly interpret the Bible, but you yourself are guilty of saying the exact kind of things (see the bold remark above) that raise the question of your process of interpretation. And you never answer it.


I would be quite happy to discuss specific aspects of the bible and explain why I believe them to be literal or not. The same processes we use to make these distinctions in everyday life can be applied to the bible. There's no magic decoder ring needed. And of course, just because there is disagreement amongst believers with some parts of the bible does not mean there is no common sense, reasonable method of interpreting it.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

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I just realized that I've been making an assumption that might not actually be right.

MM, do you believe that God is benevolent? This question is not random, nor am I setting you up for a follow up in which I pounce on you - I'm genuinely curious.


I'm nott sure if Benevolent is quite the right word to apply to God all the time. I certainly believe He has demonstrated benevolence on many occasions. If you are considering God as revealed in the bible, then of course you need to accept that every single act of goodness, love, kindness, generosity, patience etc etc is only possible because God is those things, and we are His creation, made in His image. You need to accept that all of the beauty of the world, the sunsets, the rainforests, the mountains, the Oceans - are all God's work, created for Mankind to live in and enjoy.

But Gid is also perfectly holy, and perfectly just. Those things have significant implications for the world we live in.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

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That doesn't sound right - didn't Lucifer and like 1/3 of the angels rebel against god prior to Adam and Eve's existence?

Yes. But we're talking about the world we inhabit, and humanity.
So that raises a set of interesting questions:
1) So the nature of sin is...realm-specific and species-specific?
2) Do angels have disease and die?  Did their rebellion instantiate sin into heaven?  If not, why did that apply to humanity?
3) Could sin have been eliminated by god simply choosing, of his own free will, to not have any expectations whatsoever and therefore eliminate the possibility of being rebelled against?
4) Does sin apply to other animals?  If so, is that the reason that they also suffer from death and disease.  If not, why do they suffer from death and disease?
5) How would one go about finding answers to any of these questions?

1) not entirely sure. The bbile simply doesn't provide us with the wqhole story with respect to Satan and His rebellion.

2) I simply don't know.

3) I don't think so. I think it would be akin to us trying to say that we will simply choose not to feel pain when we hit ourselves on the finger with a hammer. I don't think God can just choose to be something He isn't.

4) I don't believe animals can sin, but it is clear that animals are affected by mankinds sin. I'm not entirely sure as to why. I do believe that an awful lot of animal suffering is linked to mankinds actions though.

5) Some of them I don't think we will ever know in this lifetime.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Graybeard

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Jesus answered with regard to the question: who sinned to cause the blindeness? Not the man, or his parents.

You can't take it any further than that, and say that none of them sinned ever.
No but you can read Joh:9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I.e. =  so God can look good. A quote that harks back to the Old Testament:

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

This is the move away from "sin makes you ill"... "OK, sin makes you children ill" (which failed as many bastards lived fine healthy lives) to more of a "God does everything."

In the miracle, God made him blind in anticipation of Jesus coming to earth and curing him and thus showing the power of God to blind and to make whole.

Personally, were I Yahweh, I would have not have played the individual, zero-sum game, but just cast a spell to cure everyone in the world of blindness. This would have been properly recorded and thus there would be proof of god.

Anyway, that story is one of the strangest episodes in the NT for many reasons. The more you read it, the more it becomes apparent that it never happened - some enthusiastic story teller wrote it. There was a lot of that about in those days.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 06:07:36 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce