Author Topic: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend  (Read 2724 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« on: December 13, 2013, 11:55:21 AM »
Yes, you heard that right folks. I'm talking to you non-believers out there. When you encourage Christians to begin studying Christian Apologetics (such as sites like CARM.org) it is often the quickest way for a Christian to lose their faith and embrace reason. Why? Because these apologetics sites encourage the use of reason and logic (only they don't use them fully). So when an ignorant Christian begins applying logic and critical thinking (thinking he/she is going to 'prove' Christianity) the reverse often happens! This fact is overwhelmingly attested to by literally hundreds of ex-Christians and ex-believers etc. Once Christians realize that sound reasoning must be applied and that irrational/fallacious arguments must not be used, the light of reason begins to shine (even if at first they do not outwardly admit it). I, for one, am a living example of this fact and I have many ex-Christian friends who attest to it as well. The study of Christian apologetics is the fastest way out of "faith".

For you Christians reading this, go study the bible more! Study CARM.org. reasonablefaith.org, str.org, or apologeticspress.com. Also study the laws of logic, logical fallacies, and sound critical thinking! Educate yourself, b/c this is the fastest way to start doubting your faith. If you'd like to discuss any of the issues raised on one of those sites let's do it here!

www.carm.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.apologeticspress.com
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 11:56:52 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 703
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 05:55:37 PM »
Yeah, Christian appologetics helped me realize I was an atheist.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6396
  • Darwins +756/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 06:16:37 PM »
Luckily I didn't have to go that far to become an atheist, but its nice to know there was a backup plan.  :)
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1528
  • Darwins +101/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 07:13:37 PM »
I have read some apologist's writing (I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, for example) and do not care for what comes across to me as a God-in-a-box theology.  On the other hand, if one is intent on presenting a single unbending view of God and is convinced that winning a person's soul is the most important activity a fellow human can do, then why worry about logic or reason?  The end justify the means.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 11:42:17 PM »
I'm pretty familiar with Christian apologetics, and took classes on logic and fallacies in college. It hasn't diminished my faith.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 11:58:13 PM »
I'm pretty familiar with Christian apologetics, and took classes on logic and fallacies in college. It hasn't diminished my faith.

What faith did you start with?

Did you believe that Jesus resurrected, and that this action is central in to removing your sin?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 12:01:12 AM »
Christianity and yes and yes.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 12:04:32 AM »
www.carm.org

CARM sidesteps Matt 5:19.

I think it sidesteps all the genuinely hard questions.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 12:12:39 AM »
What about Matthew 5:19?

I am not familiar with Carm, and the site seems too expansive to read in totality in this current sitting.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 12:33:40 AM »
What about Matthew 5:19?

Oh, right. You are just denying it's a problem. Must be the eye patches and blinkers you are wearing. CARM is wearing them, too. They bother about how Judas spilled his bowels, but 5:19 is not worth even mentioning.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 12:48:02 AM »
You have yet to present a problem or make any sort of argument at all.  You have simply picked a random verse, without explaining what it has to do with anything, let alone how it relates to logic, fallacies, or Christian apologetics.  Instead, you have simply accused me of being blinded, invoking a fallacy befitting of your user name.

So per my first post, I have at least some familiarity with Christian apologetics, logic, and fallacies, and these have not diminished my faith to my knowledge.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2013, 12:54:07 AM »
You have yet to present a problem or make any sort of argument at all.  You have simply picked a random verse, without explaining what it has to do with anything, let alone how it relates to logic, fallacies, or Christian apologetics.

If I read my Living Bible, which cuts away at some of the arcane language; the paraphraser says that Paul has been working to destroy adherence to the Law, and that for him to go backwards would be a sin.

[18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

You think it would be worth a mention, why Jesus says he is not good, and then he tells everyone that the entirety of the Prophets and the Law is still in effect until the end of time, but Paul can go around telling people not to follow any of it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 01:09:11 AM »
Jesus said He came to fulfill the law (17) and that the letter of the law would not change until everything was fulfilled/accomplished, (18), which occurred through Jesus' death and resurrection (he even says, "it is accomplished" right before death.)  In verse 19 He refers to the commands that will make one great in the kingdom of heaven through being more righteous than the pharisees (20), and then spends the rest of the chapter listing those commands of righteousness.

What does that have to do with any of the topics in this thread?
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 01:19:48 AM »
Jesus said He came to fulfill the law (17)

Jesus said he came to expound it, and make people understand that they should follow it in a better way than hand washing, and giving alms in public. You are using a faulty translation.

Quote
and that the letter of the law would not change until everything was fulfilled/accomplished, (18), which occurred through Jesus' death and resurrection (he even says, "it is accomplished" right before death.)

 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,

Quote
"it is accomplished"

Non specific. He could have meant, that he had accomplished making people adhere to the laws by showing God was real.

Quote
In verse 19 He refers to the commands that will make one great in the kingdom of heaven through being more righteous than the pharisees (20), and then spends the rest of the chapter listing those commands of righteousness.

He spends the rest of the chapter expounding his own super law, which goes even beyond the Judaism that he says to adhere to perfectly, and will not end until heaven ends.

Quote
What does that have to do with any of the topics in this thread?

I just think that for an apologetics site to be a treasure trove against Christianity, it should at least canvass the major lies.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 01:33:06 AM »
You are using a faulty translation.
False.


Quote
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
... Blah blah blah until <CONDITION>.

What is the listed condition?

Quote
I just think that for an apologetics site to be a treasure trove against Christianity, it should at least canvass the major lies.
Biblical interpretation is not apologetics, and CARM is not the universal authority on Christian apologetics. So how exactly does it relate?
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 01:39:00 AM »

Quote
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
... Blah blah blah until <CONDITION>.

What is the listed condition?

[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The second fulfilled is the word genetai. The first is plerosai. Different words.

Ergo: KJV translation is designed to lead the conclusion you just offered.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 01:42:30 AM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1196
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2013, 01:52:07 AM »
That's nice. I used parallel translations in case you tried the "wrong translation" diversion again, which is why I listed both "fulfilled" and "accomplished."

For the fourth time, how does this relate to anything remotely connected to this thread? As a reminder, for the third time:
I have at least some familiarity with Christian apologetics, logic, and fallacies, and these have not diminished my faith to my knowledge.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7276
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 10:39:46 AM »
That's nice. I used parallel translations in case you tried the "wrong translation" diversion again, which is why I listed both "fulfilled" and "accomplished."

For the fourth time, how does this relate to anything remotely connected to this thread? As a reminder, for the third time:
I have at least some familiarity with Christian apologetics, logic, and fallacies, and these have not diminished my faith to my knowledge.

You are unflinching in your faith, apparently.  I'm not sure if apologetics is the best way to lose ones faith, but I'm sure it has for some believers.  One of the issues that I find interesting, is the idea that some people may be "hard-wired" on the faith thing, one way or the other.  I have often thought about why I can't make certain leaps of faith, but I have no answer other than "I must be wired that way".  And thus, others may indeed be hard-wired to be able to accept more on faith than I apparently can.

Even though I cannot understand the details of some science, I am wired to accept certain things that make sense to me, and reject those things that have little basis in reality, like "miracles".  While I cannot say with certainty that someone came back from the dead, I don't see a reason to consider that this happened to a man named Jesus over 2,000 years ago.  Nor do I have any good reason to imagine that he was capable of anything "supernatural".  A much more reasonable and believable scenario, is that Jesus was a preacher who was telling of the coming of the kingdom of YHWH, nothing more, nothing less.

The faith I am talking about requires you to believe things that have no reasonable place in modern thinking, according to my "hard-wired" view.  For some reason, you accept things like this, and thus accept apologetics without the bother of the fallacies and logical flaws.

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2443
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 12:34:05 PM »
I just thought it would be fun to try this out, so I want to CARM and looked up Trinity. What I read was something that is poorly argued and with more holes that a sieve.

Now it is true, I picked one of the more difficult doctrines of the church - and one, incidentally that a number of solitary christians on this site disagree with - and it is fair to say that the solution of the doctrine of the trinity, up to Chalcedon in 450CE, to the problems of people wanting to see Jesus as not a man but a god, along with the desire to keep monotheism, ended up really a  restatement of the problem rather that a solution. Well CARM did not disappoint and got to telling us that it was a mystery so that we couldn't really have a solution - quite a cop out. In fact they nearly get into one or two of the heresies from which people were thrown out of the church in the first few hundred years.

I think it was the Trinity that got me to thinking that there was something phoney about the whole of the Christian doctrine so I imagine this could be a good page to send someone who wasn't quite sure of his belief in order to really shake belief.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2572
  • Darwins +51/-423
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 01:30:10 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."

So it should be no surprise when we say "not good enough" about abiogenesis and evolution.

Often, we must just agree to disagree.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4598
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2013, 02:47:09 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."

So it should be no surprise when we say "not good enough" about abiogenesis and evolution.

Often, we must just agree to disagree.
You are defending the flying spaghetti monster,just in a different form. There is no base logic for this position,because you are just grasping at straws using what you call "faith".

 You believe that Demons have a hold on all that you disagree with,and everything you believe is "true",while Mooby make think you are a fucking nut-bar and will dismiss your "Demon" theories as hogwash 

 Both you and Mooby think you are right,see the problem here? You are both Christians that can't agree on even the base principles of your religion
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:48:56 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline abbysometh1ng

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Darwins +10/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2013, 03:07:59 PM »

Skeptic,

I was raised as a Free Methodist, and I know where you are coming from…or at least I think I do.  I was told that if I even doubted, if I just listened to “alternative views”, then I was being tempted by Satan.  The more compelling the argument, the more god was testing me to make sure I was measuring up (Satan is such a wily critter!). To allow a crack in my armor, was to open myself up to infection. Your beliefs lead you to perceive my words to you right now as a threat: I am after your soul.

God knew my every thought, so any thoughts that were doubtful or outright questioning of his ultimate authority or the truthfulness of his book, made me one of the “others” – those that were destined for hell, the ones unworthy of his love.
 
I don’t know how to get you to open up and consider some of the things you hear on this forum.  I’ll tell you where my crack started, and it had nothing to do with religion.  I am an avid fossil hunter – have always been fascinated by them and have looked for them since I was a child.  I have found thousands of them, whole pages of pre- history are laid out in front of me when I open up a layer of rock.  This led to finding out about the geological history of my area, the ice ages that scraped off millions of years of deposits, the fascinating evidence for plate tectonics, the mass extinctions that have occurred throughout history.  For me, to disregard what I learned about the world around me by ignoring it because of my religion was being intellectually dishonest.  I began to doubt what I had been told by my upbringing…not without some serious soul-searching, but I have never regretted the path that my life has taken.
 
I would rather be an intelligent, growing, truth-seeking atheist than a molded, static result of childhood propaganda that I was too afraid to break away from.  But most religions indoctrinate their children so well that it can be very difficult to step away and examine what is being taught objectively, even as an adult.  My advice:  get on a real science site and just try to understand just one troubling science concept.  Take religion out of it temporarily, for understanding’s sake.  You can go back to the religious version afterwards…but if you truly understand the concept, you will, hopefully, be appalled at what you read when religion is allowed to take the place of science.

Good luck, Skeptic 

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7276
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2013, 03:26:50 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."

So it should be no surprise when we say "not good enough" about abiogenesis and evolution.

Often, we must just agree to disagree.

Quibbles?  A man coming back to life?  A man who lived int he belly of a fish/whale for three days and survived?  A god who demands burnt animal sacrifices, and asks one to sacrifice their own child?  A god who creates females from the rib of a male?  Quibbles?

Please, spare us the sad comparison between the state of being humble about what we have learned, versus your apparent knowledge of things based purely and wholly on ancient writings.

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2443
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2013, 04:16:35 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."

So it should be no surprise when we say "not good enough" about abiogenesis and evolution.

Often, we must just agree to disagree.

Oh dear - still not able to get over the problems of accepting our best evidenced theory in science, Skeptic, Evolution? Really, there are better things to discuss that this theory but we can always re-visit it if you have something meaty to discuss (as distinct from claiming there are still links missing or you don't like macro-evolution that is.) Abiogenesis you must have seen is a work in progress. There are various hypotheses but no way of proving any just yet. It has to be labeled 'don't know' for now but wait and see what happens in a few year's time.

As to defending faith - which bits are you defending? Maybe the bit where god creates light but doesn't bother to create and bodies ot emit like for a couple more days? Or is it that the first day consists of day and night without the sun and moon to delineate the day and night? Then there's the Trinity which is, frankly, and extra-biblical idea. (Yes are know there are odd verses that have a trinitarian portion like the last verse of Matthew but these could well by 2nd century additions as they seem so completely out of place with the rest of the Nt. ) 

We all know that believing the Trinity to be true is an important part of the majority of  Christian groupings, yet we know that Jesus is shown as rejecting the title Son of God in the gospels and submits to god's will and so on. There were lot 's of heresies in the first 3 centuries after Jesus and any one of them could equally have been accepted as the only non-heretical one. Don't forget that Eusibius (yes the historian and Bishop of Alexandria) was convinced that Arius was right and even thought the the Nicene Creed support his view. If he had been more influential things could have been very different. You'll know that the 'godhead' is stitched together solely by the Aristotelian term 'substance'  - that very sme term that catholics use to explain that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus at the consecration (the accidence, what we see remains the same but the substanve, what it's very being is, changes to be the parts of Christ). Now we all know that whilst Aristotle and those at Nicea knew what it meant and that it made sense, we would be hard put to it today to get anyone to take us seriously at all if we tried it out on anything other than a religious thing. Our knowledge of Physics shows us that it is nonsense.

Yet, so far as god is concerned, we have no idea - no conception of an idea - what god could be made of that is without material parts and yet has a mind and yet can issue words that can create anything. Yet some of us are happy to say that god, Jesus and the Holy ghost are made of the same substance - though come to think of it it might make sense but not how you would like it, Skeptic.

The fact is that theology has always had a problem trying to get its head around the Trinity (just see how often a sermon is preached on this topic) and it is one of the part of theology which ought, therefore, to worry Christians the most. After all, if Jesus wasn't god but was a man, represented as a part of creation, how could he be enough to die for all the sins of the world? Yet, if he is god, being sinful was never going to be much of a task so he was not going to manage to achieve enough as a man. Finally, sacrificing one part of the godhead to another part of the godhead so that the second part of the godhead could forgive sins is a really hard sell to those who start to think about it for even a short time.

So, Skeptic, this is not a 'not good enough' problem. The question of who and what is the godhead goes to the heart of Christian belief and hope of salvation and disturbingly it is not a question that is solved by saying 'it's a mystery'.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6641
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2013, 05:08:46 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith.
Yes, but it doesn't say you should
(i) invent things
(ii) tell half-truths
(iii) make statements that are palpably wrong
(iv) fail to admit that a mistake has been made.
(v) maintain that the Scriptures are inerrant at the cost of good sense.

Quote
Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."
No, and they never are, are they?

However, having said that, I have seen good apologists speaking on the great and godly "Pi = 3" and the "On this day you shalt surely die." debates. But when it come to The Flood, Young Earth, Creation, etc. all the brilliant, inventive excuses are just so much idiocy and make Christians appear foolish.

The other thing is that it is more than apparent that Christians have no idea of the social, economic and cultural circumstances of those in the Middle East between 6,000 BC and 200 AD. They seem to think that it was just like "small-town America."

Added to this, they know nothing about the authors of the Bible nor how, when and why it was constructed.

Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 05:11:42 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 703
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2013, 08:43:40 PM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith.
Yes, but it doesn't say you should
(i) invent things
(ii) tell half-truths
(iii) make statements that are palpably wrong
(iv) fail to admit that a mistake has been made.
(v) maintain that the Scriptures are inerrant at the cost of good sense.

This is what led me on my way to realizing I am an atheist.

Apologetics would claim things I knew to be false. 

Then when you look throughout history and see the terrible things done in the name of the Christian religion, I ended up asking how has it changed?  What, am I supposed to believe religion is cool now?  Riiiight, sure.

Religion hasn't changed.  The only thing that has changed is that science has givin religion the ability to fullfil it's own self hatred prophecies of the end of the world with WMD's.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 04:12:03 AM »
Apologetics is defending the faith. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Many apologetics sites answer the common atheist quibbles. Yet they say "not good enough."

So it should be no surprise when we say "not good enough" about abiogenesis and evolution.

Often, we must just agree to disagree.

Except it makes no difference if you reject abiogenesis and and evolution. It is your faulty assumption AFTER THAT which makes you irrational. Instead of being honest and admitting that you don't know, you instead leap to gap arguments based in your presuppositions. That is anti-science and counter to honest investigation. It's called Confirmation Bias.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2443
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 04:21:12 AM »

Except it makes no difference if you reject abiogenesis and and evolution. It is your faulty assumption AFTER THAT which makes you irrational. Instead of being honest and admitting that you don't know, you instead leap to gap arguments based in your presuppositions. That is anti-science and counter to honest investigation. It's called Confirmation Bias.

But isn't this the crux of the matter, Median? Without confirmation bias could any religion survive at all? I mean, without CB everyone who prays would quickly see that nothing happens - ever - when one prays.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6569
  • Darwins +865/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christian Apologetics is the Non-Believers Best Friend
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 10:46:47 PM »
Like Abbysometh1ng, I was raised to think that any religious question that did not already have a pre-accepted answer was a dangerous thing. And such questions are dangerous for religions.

For me, the commonsense evidence of a gigantic dinosaur bone in the museum set me off on a whole lot of dangerous questions, since my religion said there had been no dinosaurs, and all fossils were fakes.

Some people are able to look right at a dinosaur bone and not believe it is real, while maintaining that invisible supernatural god-beings who watch our every move are real.

I am not one of those people.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.