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Tell them to be atheist or give them a taste of science and see what they think.

Tell them to be atheist or else your stupid ;)
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Give them a taste of logic and science and then see what they think
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Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Parenting children  (Read 1345 times)

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Offline Shaffy

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Parenting children
« on: December 09, 2013, 12:48:15 PM »
My Dad started reading "Parenting Beyond Belief" (edited by Dale McGowan, containing numerous essays from a wide variety of people, including Richard Dawkins).  The general consensus seems to be that parents should not actually teach their children to be atheists but should instead teach them critical thinking skills and let them make up their own minds as they see fit.  After all, the argument goes, we all know that children basically accept whatever their parents tell them, regardless of how ridiculous it may be.This is why I think you should give them a taste and urge them to learn like my father did. Now look at me...I've been atheist since the age of 5 :laugh: What do you guys think?

-Shaffy
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Online One Above All

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 12:53:49 PM »
Never teach them what to think; teach them how to think.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Shaffy

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2013, 01:19:55 PM »
Never teach them what to think; teach them how to think.

Sorry,Thats what I meant ;D
-Shaffy
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Online One Above All

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 01:30:57 PM »
Sorry,Thats what I meant ;D

? Why the apology? I was simply stating my opinion.

-Shaffy

-One
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Shaffy

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 01:36:44 PM »
Sorry,Thats what I meant ;D

? Why the apology? I was simply stating my opinion.

-Shaffy

-One

Sorry I have a habit of saying sorry...sorry ;)" I meant to say yep I agree with you."
-Shaffy
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 01:40:57 PM by Shaffy »
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 02:19:12 PM »
I agree completely.  In theory.  Practice is sometimes harder than theory.

At about age 3, my daughter demanded to know "What are we?"  She had friends who were Catholic and Methodist and Jewish and Muslim and Hindu.  We got invited to parties and celebrations for all kinds of cultural and religious events, and I love a party.  She has been doing the advent box at one neighbor's house since she was a baby.  She certainly lit her first menorah before age 3.  She knew all about respecting folks who were fasting for Ramadan since she was tiny. 

So what are we?

After a few failed attempts at discussing the role of religion in society, and my own secular upbringing with a 3 year old, I announced that "WE" are secular humanists.  She didn't really love that answer.  But she had two peers who also identified as secular, and so I spoke with their parents and tried to carve out an identity to go along with the title.  Which became confused by the fact that one secular family is Jewish secular, and they DO light menorahs and spin dreidels and sing songs that no one else knows. 

At 7, she is capable of much more complex thinking, and seems to feel less of a need for us to be in a clear category.  She knows quite a bit about religion.  And over the years, she has alternated between announcing that she either does or doesn't believe in the deity/supernatural being of the month.  These deities/ supernatural beings have included the "man with a white beard on a cloud" god of Abraham, Zeus, who she learned about in school, fairies, who are omnipresent in children's literature, (and who until a few months ago, she believed were responsible for putting money under her pillow when she loses a tooth), and most recently ghosts.  She likes to asses the pros and cons of the likelihood of the existence of each of these beings, and also likes to cite which of her friends believe.  Lots of ghost believers in the second grade, apparently.  Some of them believe that the ghosts are their dead relatives.

My daughter has expressed that it would be nice to believe that dead people come back and visit you, or that they are living in the clouds having fun far away.  I've told her that I agree.  I would LIKE to believe those things.  And I can even PRETEND that I believe those things, because sometimes it makes me feel better to pretend that I can talk to my beloved mom.  But that I really don't believe. 

She nods, stoically. 

I'm big on promoting "I believe in science!" and she likes that a lot.  She is my little budding scientist.

But I always tell her that as she grows up, she will make her own decisions about what to believe. 



On a completely different topic - last night we took a cab ride home in a terrible storm.  The cab was slipping and sliding, and the driver, who was terrific, apologized profusely when we slid through a yellow light as it turned red.  He was very aware of keeping the little girl in the back seat safe.

I gave him a very generous, much-deserved tip.   And as we got out of the car, he shouted "God bless you!  God bless you both!  God bless you!"

My 7 year old asked why he was saying "god bless you." 

She said that neither of us had sneezed.  She was genuinely confused. 

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 06:49:10 PM »
I am in a difficult position. I raised my 14 year old son as a Christian.  He goes to a Christian School.  I had always been very liberal and accepting and quite different than his fundamentalist paternal grandparents who talked me into that school.  The public school where I live has a 47% graduation rate and frequent stabbings and "beat downs" among both students and teachers.  The secular private school is more than 4X the price of his current school.  I am financially destitute.  I just gave up belief in any god this past year.  I don't want to just bluntly stomp on his beliefs so I try to subtly let him know I no longer believe.  I figure that since he is pretty intelligent if I don't reinforce any religious things he may learn he will decide for himself that he is being fed fiction.  He already does not buy what they teach in Science as it pertains to creationism.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 07:02:07 PM »
We teach our kids what we believe with regard to God and Jesus. We also send them to public schools, and they have access to all sorts of science material at home. They often read about evolution and discuss these beliefs (mainly with my wife).

We hope they accept that God is real, but we certainly aren't trying to force this belief on them. It really isn't possible.

I grew up as middle child in a Christian household simialr to the one we provide now. My two siblings are not Christians.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Shaffy

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 07:07:08 PM »
I am in a difficult position. I raised my 14 year old son as a Christian.  He goes to a Christian School.  I had always been very liberal and accepting and quite different than his fundamentalist paternal grandparents who talked me into that school.  The public school where I live has a 47% graduation rate and frequent stabbings and "beat downs" among both students and teachers.  The secular private school is more than 4X the price of his current school.  I am financially destitute.  I just gave up belief in any god this past year.  I don't want to just bluntly stomp on his beliefs so I try to subtly let him know I no longer believe.  I figure that since he is pretty intelligent if I don't reinforce any religious things he may learn he will decide for himself that he is being fed fiction.  He already does not buy what they teach in Science as it pertains to creationism.

You seem like a good parent :) I was just want to prepare myself for my kids to ask questions. Im so happy i figured out its all BS so young :) thanks for the response.

-Shaffy
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 07:33:41 PM »
I am in a difficult position. I raised my 14 year old son as a Christian.  He goes to a Christian School.  I had always been very liberal and accepting and quite different than his fundamentalist paternal grandparents who talked me into that school.  The public school where I live has a 47% graduation rate and frequent stabbings and "beat downs" among both students and teachers.  The secular private school is more than 4X the price of his current school.  I am financially destitute.  I just gave up belief in any god this past year.  I don't want to just bluntly stomp on his beliefs so I try to subtly let him know I no longer believe.  I figure that since he is pretty intelligent if I don't reinforce any religious things he may learn he will decide for himself that he is being fed fiction.  He already does not buy what they teach in Science as it pertains to creationism.

Oh Lori.  What a year you have had. 

Your son is bright.  Don't "teach" him.  Ask him.  Ask him questions and let him draw his own conclusions.  And you already know how to share your thoughts and feelings.   

What are you going to do about school?  Is he going to high school next year, or is in he in his first year now?  If he is going to start high school, a transition to another school would be easier.  But I understand your hesitation about the local public schools.  I went to public schools my whole life, and got a great education.  But I stood on my head to get my daughter into a charter school.  Are there any charters in your district?  Do any of the private schools give scholarships?  I have a friend who sends his kids to a fancy uptown elementary school on scholarships.  If he is already in high school, it might be easiest on him to keep him there if they have scholarships.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 08:13:55 PM »
This is a small area.  There aren't a lot of choices.  Both the middle school and the high school are terrible and dangerous.  All but one of the private schools are religious.  The secular one is the one James Earl Jones sent his kid to and is priced accordingly.  I looked into it when I was working and couldn't even afford it then.  His father paid his tuition this year for the first time but keeps threatening to stop.  And he delivers these threats through my son rather than telling me directly.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline abbysometh1ng

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 10:12:51 PM »
I raised my 2 sons as a loving, atheistic parent.  I agreed that they could go to the Catholic Church when they were with their Dad, but made it clear to them that they should use it as background knowledge and make their own decisions according to what they personally believed.

They would hear my rants on occasion, when a creationist program would be on TV, so they were very aware of my thoughts on the matter.  Because I was raised in a religious family, I knew the damage indoctrinated religion could do and I didn't want to force such a thing on my sons. We discussed life, death, and everything in between, quite freely. I was proud that my sons, when grown, did not blindly follow the rules of a religion that had no evidence and that was based on fear and guilt.  I taught them to question ANY authority (to my chagrin, occasionally!) and to use their minds and reasoning to make decisions.

Offline Shaffy

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 10:16:59 PM »
I raised my 2 sons as a loving, atheistic parent.  I agreed that they could go to the Catholic Church when they were with their Dad, but made it clear to them that they should use it as background knowledge and make their own decisions according to what they personally believed.

They would hear my rants on occasion, when a creationist program would be on TV, so they were very aware of my thoughts on the matter.  Because I was raised in a religious family, I knew the damage indoctrinated religion could do and I didn't want to force such a thing on my sons. We discussed life, death, and everything in between, quite freely. I was proud that my sons, when grown, did not blindly follow the rules of a religion that had no evidence and that was based on fear and guilt.  I taught them to question ANY authority (to my chagrin, occasionally!) and to use their minds and reasoning to make decisions.

You seem to parent like my dad..very smart :)

-Shaffy
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 09:33:39 AM »
My three kids were all baptized in the Catholic church, and we went every Sunday (especially when we lived close to my parents) probably up until they were between 10-16 years old. After that, we were living much further away, and it just kind of petered out. Though my husband claims he misses going sometimes, and will occasionally go by himself, he does seem mostly to prefer getting to sleep in.

At any rate, I don't really recall the kids asking particular questions about religion, probably because it just wasn't something that was ever really discussed at home. Of course, they didn't like going to church when they were little, but they also picked up on the fact that I wasn't thrilled about it either, but it kept their grandparents happy.

They really didn't have friends who were particularly or overtly religious either. So there was really never any angst about who was saved or not. I guess mine is a fairly boring story. They just grew up never thinking much about it one way or another except for hearing the occasional rant against fundies. So they were pretty clear on the idea that while there might or might not be any sort of supreme being, it certainly wasn't one which was accurately described in the Christian, or any other religion.

They are between 22-28 years old now, and while the oldest treads a more agnostic line with a more open mind to the concept of Christianity, the other two identify as atheist. The younger one is actually finishing up his 5th year at a Jesuit University (long story about how he ended up there), and has always managed to get A's on all the papers & projects he's had to do for the obligatory religion classes even though he has always written them with a secular humanist viewpoint. Guess that's one good thing about the Jesuits, at any rate. They do allow you to actually think a bit.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 12:26:09 PM »
My son is pretty snarky.  He doesn't like to have serious discussions with me.  I know the friends he hangs out with at school are the "troublemakers."  This doesn't really bother me because the offenses required to achieve that label at a fundy Christian school are pretty ridiculous.  He makes fun of people who post Bible verses and pretentiously spout Jesus stuff all the time.  He also makes fun of aggressive Atheists who jump on every spiritual thing they see as if it is a personal attack.  He is very Scientific minded.  The Bible Teacher is actually a pretty cool and decent guy. Brian confessed to me that he got into a debate/argument with him over the Young Earth theory and managed to place doubts into his head.  I was pretty impressed.  Sometimes I wonder why they let him stay at that school.  Possibly a combination of his test scores bump up their averages, his grandfather was one of the founders of the school and I think his grandmother is still a financial benefactor. Or maybe because I have been the "ringer" in their performance of the Hallelujah Chorus for the past 10 years...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 07:54:09 AM »
Wanna know how to properly raise your children? Take a leaf from mormonism...

Quote
Daphne Bramham, Postmedia News · Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011

VANCOUVER — Water torture of babies is one way some members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day instill fear of authority, a former member testified Wednesday.

“It’s quite common,” Carolyn Blackmore Jessop told the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada’s polygamy law is valid.

“They spank the baby and when it cries, they hold the baby face up under the tap with running water. When they stop crying, they spank it again and the cycle is repeated until they are exhausted.”

It’s typically done by fathers and it’s called “breaking in.”

Jessop, who is from Arizona, testified about the practice during her testimony in B.C. Supreme Court.

Outside the courthouse, Jessop said water torture is common enough that there doesn’t seem any shame attached to the practice.

That should bring all those self righteous and selfish infants into line.

http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 06:37:39 PM »
^^ Does he moonlight at GITMO?  >:(
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline changeling

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 02:25:36 PM »
Wanna know how to properly raise your children? Take a leaf from mormonism...

Quote
Daphne Bramham, Postmedia News · Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011

VANCOUVER — Water torture of babies is one way some members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day instill fear of authority, a former member testified Wednesday.

“It’s quite common,” Carolyn Blackmore Jessop told the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada’s polygamy law is valid.

“They spank the baby and when it cries, they hold the baby face up under the tap with running water. When they stop crying, they spank it again and the cycle is repeated until they are exhausted.”

It’s typically done by fathers and it’s called “breaking in.”

Jessop, who is from Arizona, testified about the practice during her testimony in B.C. Supreme Court.

Outside the courthouse, Jessop said water torture is common enough that there doesn’t seem any shame attached to the practice.

That should bring all those self righteous and selfish infants into line.

http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885


Why wouldn't that be considered child abuse and illegal regardless of the religion?

Changeling
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 03:02:48 PM »
We teach our kids what we believe with regard to God and Jesus. We also send them to public schools, and they have access to all sorts of science material at home. They often read about evolution and discuss these beliefs (mainly with my wife).

We hope they accept that God is real, but we certainly aren't trying to force this belief on them. It really isn't possible.

I grew up as middle child in a Christian household simialr to the one we provide now. My two siblings are not Christians.
wow,that is a bold statement (from my POV) I did not think your mind was that open. Might the children,if they reject the idea of a god have some influence on your position?

 The idea that you are not objecting to open learning for your children leads me to believe you could have doubt,that is why you may be here as well....no?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Willie

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 01:28:25 AM »
This is a small area.  There aren't a lot of choices.  Both the middle school and the high school are terrible and dangerous.  All but one of the private schools are religious.  The secular one is the one James Earl Jones sent his kid to and is priced accordingly.  I looked into it when I was working and couldn't even afford it then.  His father paid his tuition this year for the first time but keeps threatening to stop.  And he delivers these threats through my son rather than telling me directly.

Is relocating an option? It might be hard to find a good performing public school in an affordable locale, but it should at least be possible to find one that isn't so dangerous. A motivated student with a supportive family can get a good education even in a mediocre school. Also bear in mind that school performance metrics, such as test scores and graduation rates, don't tell the whole story about the quality of a school. A good school can have subpar metrics if it serves a troubled demographic.  Moving may be your best option if his dad stops funding the tuition and you can't afford to cover it. That's assuming that the current school is good other than the religious junk. If it isn't, then moving may be your best option in any case.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 02:43:16 AM »
We teach our kids what we believe with regard to God and Jesus. We also send them to public schools, and they have access to all sorts of science material at home. They often read about evolution and discuss these beliefs (mainly with my wife).

We hope they accept that God is real, but we certainly aren't trying to force this belief on them. It really isn't possible.

I grew up as middle child in a Christian household simialr to the one we provide now. My two siblings are not Christians.
wow,that is a bold statement (from my POV) I did not think your mind was that open. Might the children,if they reject the idea of a god have some influence on your position?

 The idea that you are not objecting to open learning for your children leads me to believe you could have doubt,that is why you may be here as well....no?



No
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 12:24:08 PM »

Is relocating an option?

Unfortunately, no.  Unless I can sell my home for a profit and if my disability claim is settled favorably so I have an income I am stuck here.  The mediocrity of the school isn't my main concern.  It is the safety.  There is constant violence.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 02:44:15 PM »
We teach our kids what we believe with regard to God and Jesus. We also send them to public schools, and they have access to all sorts of science material at home. They often read about evolution and discuss these beliefs (mainly with my wife).

We hope they accept that God is real, but we certainly aren't trying to force this belief on them. It really isn't possible.

I grew up as middle child in a Christian household simialr to the one we provide now. My two siblings are not Christians.
wow,that is a bold statement (from my POV) I did not think your mind was that open. Might the children,if they reject the idea of a god have some influence on your position?

 The idea that you are not objecting to open learning for your children leads me to believe you could have doubt,that is why you may be here as well....no?



No
Then you truly have a closed mind
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2013, 04:07:05 PM »
We teach our kids what we believe with regard to God and Jesus. We also send them to public schools, and they have access to all sorts of science material at home. They often read about evolution and discuss these beliefs (mainly with my wife).

We hope they accept that God is real, but we certainly aren't trying to force this belief on them. It really isn't possible.

I grew up as middle child in a Christian household simialr to the one we provide now. My two siblings are not Christians.
wow,that is a bold statement (from my POV) I did not think your mind was that open. Might the children,if they reject the idea of a god have some influence on your position?

 The idea that you are not objecting to open learning for your children leads me to believe you could have doubt,that is why you may be here as well....no?



No
Then you truly have a closed mind

I'm always open to that possibility.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Jag

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2013, 04:52:31 PM »

Is relocating an option?

Unfortunately, no.  Unless I can sell my home for a profit and if my disability claim is settled favorably so I have an income I am stuck here.  The mediocrity of the school isn't my main concern.  It is the safety.  There is constant violence.

I know this suggestion comes with some additional issues before it's a workable solution, but what about local charter schools? Are there any in your area that are high-quality? Alternatively there are home school curriculum that are not fundy in content, would that be an option? Social interaction can be a problem in home schooling, but sports, music, drama, and extra-curricular stuff could help take care of that.

And I realize that home schooling probably sounds horrifying and overwhelming, given the problems you are already trying to deal with. However, the few that I'm familiar with are not like what you hear about in the fundy circles - all of them have instructors and set schedules and just use the internet to connect in real time, rather than being in a classroom environment.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 04:55:36 PM by Jag »
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Parenting children
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2013, 02:49:11 AM »
Wanna know how to properly raise your children? Take a leaf from mormonism...

Quote
Daphne Bramham, Postmedia News · Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011

VANCOUVER — Water torture of babies is one way some members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day instill fear of authority, a former member testified Wednesday.

“It’s quite common,” Carolyn Blackmore Jessop told the constitutional reference case to determine whether Canada’s polygamy law is valid.

“They spank the baby and when it cries, they hold the baby face up under the tap with running water. When they stop crying, they spank it again and the cycle is repeated until they are exhausted.”

It’s typically done by fathers and it’s called “breaking in.”

Jessop, who is from Arizona, testified about the practice during her testimony in B.C. Supreme Court.

Outside the courthouse, Jessop said water torture is common enough that there doesn’t seem any shame attached to the practice.

That should bring all those self righteous and selfish infants into line.

http://equalitycentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885


Why wouldn't that be considered child abuse and illegal regardless of the religion?

Changeling

Pfft, cos it comes under the heading of 'Religious Doctrine', which makes it perfectly legal.

Fuck you religion, all of you and all of your immoral ways.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.