Author Topic: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?  (Read 3756 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2013, 10:16:00 AM »
I hardly call not wanting to die, 'greedy.' It may seem so if you think of it as "infinite" but not wanting to die today isn't greedy, and it is always today.

That is fine, as i do not want to die.

But eventually i must, no?

If i lived to the age of 3000 years, i would probably be so outright bored and tired that i would simply want to die.

But the thought that people want more than what they need is greedy.

Then define 'need;' I think "staying alive" is as basic of a need as it gets. This is something I lock horns with other atheists on; they conceptualize wanting to die at some point. I really think that, unless you are talking about pain and disability(and yes mental pain does count) that every person will not want to die today. And it is always today.

None the less we are talking about impossibilites here.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:09 AM »
If we are talking about an eternal existence where anything that can possibly happen will happen, then the time will come when one day you will want to die, and then that day will come again..., and again..., and again in perpetuity. Not that you will be able to of course, as that negates the eternal existence.
If you keep on living your life as though your purpose is to be saved and go to heaven, you are missing the heaven that you are living in right now.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2013, 11:04:41 AM »
I see the bible as clear teaching with a clear message about who God is and where salvation comes from.  Christ commands His followers to tell others, so I think that it is important that you not be confused and think that we need another new revelation from God.  It's here.

If the books and writings that comprise the Bible could be described accurately in a one word description, I doubt the word 'clear' would be at the top of the list. Other C-words like confusing, conflicting, and condescending would pop up 1st.

An additional idea you'd do well to consider is the whole subject of salvation you mentioned. Have you ever stepped back and really thought about it? You have God offering conditional salvation from a penalty that is nothing more than his wrathful expression of displeasure and angry indignation. If this supposedly all powerful god really was "unwilling that any should perish", then he'd simply get a grip on his temper and solve the whole problem of the danger that man is thought to be in danger of and need saving from.

The Bible and its god(s) are a bit behind the times as it relates to the philosophy of human behavior. Its punishment to affect behavior solution is very, Bronze Age. It seems to overlook the idea that their are better motivators and sources of instruction than fear and punishment. Its primal solutions could really use some updating.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2013, 11:25:13 AM »
Then define 'need;' I think "staying alive" is as basic of a need as it gets. This is something I lock horns with other atheists on; they conceptualize wanting to die at some point. I really think that, unless you are talking about pain and disability(and yes mental pain does count) that every person will not want to die today. And it is always today.

I guess "need" in this case is the biological limit of the human life span?
I agree with you that humans do not want to die, but it is inevitable, and people should focus on living, rather than what happens after death.

None the less we are talking about impossibilites here.

Yeah...lets move on.
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Offline Willie

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2013, 11:39:20 AM »
If i lived to the age of 3000 years, i would probably be so outright bored and tired that i would simply want to die.

I don't get why people think this. We live in a vast universe. Do you really think that 3000 years would be enough to even scratch the surface on what can be learned, explored, and created? And, a very long lifespan would create much greater freedom to try different things. One could dedicate all the decades of study and experience needed to become a great scientist, then do the same for becoming an artist, then an engineer, a doctor, a philosopher, etc., then do it all again because being a scientist, artist, etc. in the 1800's is very different from those same disciplines today, and I'm sure it will be quite different in the future as well. You wouldn't have to worry about squandering your one tiny little lifespan on an occupation that might turn out to not be where your talent or passion lies. You could just go for it, and if it isn't what suits you, or if you get tired of it, then you'd be free to go a different way. How could you ever get bored?

But the thought that people want more than what they need is greedy.

Want is all we really have. Need exists only in relation to what we want. i.e. we want to survive, therefore we need food, water, and breathable air. But without wanting something, we have no need even to exist at all.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2013, 02:50:39 PM »

I don't get why people think this. We live in a vast universe. Do you really think that 3000 years would be enough to even scratch the surface on what can be learned, explored, and created? And, a very long lifespan would create much greater freedom to try different things. One could dedicate all the decades of study and experience needed to become a great scientist, then do the same for becoming an artist, then an engineer, a doctor, a philosopher, etc., then do it all again because being a scientist, artist, etc. in the 1800's is very different from those same disciplines today, and I'm sure it will be quite different in the future as well. You wouldn't have to worry about squandering your one tiny little lifespan on an occupation that might turn out to not be where your talent or passion lies. You could just go for it, and if it isn't what suits you, or if you get tired of it, then you'd be free to go a different way. How could you ever get bored?

This is part of my point. In the last year there's been more scientific advancement and art created than I can learn in my lifetime. Hell with a few millenia to play with, I would try and take apart and put tegther a volkswagon bug enough times in an attempt to acheive zen, or at least an understanding of German engineering.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2013, 03:23:58 PM »
I'm actually impressed with the bible and how such old texts still do speak relevantly to modern man.  Solomon in Ecclesiastes talks about how the soul is never satisfied.  He doesn't hide his struggle, and we see that all over the place in western culture especially.  The wisdom in Proverbs is a good example of teaching. There is also in the new testament particularly, teaching of forgiveness, grace, discipline, love.  All good stuff and applicable for us today. 
I see the bible as clear teaching with a clear message about who God is and where salvation comes from.  Christ commands His followers to tell others, so I think that it is important that you not be confused and think that we need another new revelation from God.  It's here.
And again, what I've put in bold above is just clearly incorrect.  It is not clear.  Otherwise, why are there so many people in this world - you know, the people that god apparently actually cares for - who have the message so wrong or outright reject it as nonsense?  The success rate of the bible to convince people that salvation through belief in Jesus (and/or good works - again, depends on who you ask), is far too low.  Especially from a being purported to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent.

If you were teaching a class and 25%[1] of your students were outright failing, wouldn't you think to yourself that there is probably a better way to teach the material?
 1. And I'm being very generous here.  Ask India, China, or various Islamic countries about it.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2013, 09:29:20 PM »
So you actually mean a 66% fail rate Jdawg? Christians are 33% of world Pop. and the "true Christian" population has to be in the 15% range
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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2013, 10:17:35 PM »
  It doesn't make sense that people who live in a finite world would have to pay infinitely for their sins.  It bugs me that more Christians don't openly ask about it.

If you fish around in Revelation there is evidence that those who are not beast worshippers, will be simply disposed of in the lake of fire.

Luke 16 implies that nasty people will burn in Sheol, while they wait for judgement. And those who are relatively innocuous will sit around in the Bosom of Abraham.

The word "eternal" and "everlasting" was slipped into the Vulgate, to make the punishment accord with contemporary human desires to sell the religion. Infinite hell is terrifying, and because of it, more people are willing to take Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager only works with an infinite hell, because people are generally not stupid enough to believe in Christianity if there is only a finite punishment. (Except if they are Jehovah's witnesses, or SDAs)

If someone comes to you and says "Believe in this ridiculous shit, or I'll torture your unproven soul for 100 years", you will respond "LOL".

Matt "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -->> The soul is destroyed in hell.

Quote
  First of all I think we have to realize that what we do here on earth matters.  A lot!

Matters to whom? It matters to me.

Otherwise you have the problem that humans have been hanging around on Earth for millions of years, and we mattered so much, nothing much happened, except we built bark huts, and ate fish. Once you realize how old the world is, you realize how much we don't matter to a god.

If you believe in Intelligent Design, then why didn't He work a bit faster?
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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2013, 10:30:10 PM »
You just stepped on your own booby trap, Pat.

Those who don't will stand before Him and give an account of their lives.  Romans 14 & Revelation 20[/b]

Quote
There is no salvation for those who do not believe. Mark 16

The point of this thread, is that the Jews believed that there was a salvation without Jesus. The Pharisees were working on the book of Enoch. It seemed perfectly reasonable to them, that if there was a resurrection, then righteous people would go to it. (and unrighteous would be left behind in the silence of Sheol)

It's the same problem you still have. You SAY you are saved, but you don't really know. Christians are hard pressed to know if they are achieving the bare minimum "works" they need to do. It seems reasonable to you, that if you behave like a good western capitalist, who generally helped his neighbour, then if you believe in Jesus, you will go to heaven. The Jews believed that, too. It's a community perception of where the you think the bar is.

Jesus needed to be crucified, to re-brand the religion to Jesus, away from the Jewish religion.
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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2013, 10:38:03 PM »
I will say that the evolution v creation debate could go on forever.  Unless you are a boots on the ground scientist, then we are all just quoting someone else.  So pick who you want and the next guy will quote another.

I can quote sky pixies. I think the evolutionist quotes are significantly stronger than the creationist quotes, because the creationists don't stick to any particular story, nor do they have any science, nor are there many of them, nor have any of them won any prizes, because they are too lazy to even award prizes to themselves.

But you are right, the debate can go on forever, because people are unwilling to let go of an infinite threat of hell, over something which is uncertain, like fossils being found 2km underground in oil drills.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2006/04/0426_060426_dinos.html

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2013, 11:09:32 PM »


But you are right, the debate can go on forever, because people are unwilling to let go of an infinite threat of hell, over something which is uncertain, like fossils being found 2km underground in oil drills.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2006/04/0426_060426_dinos.html

Which is odd because from what I heard, fossils tend not to be near oil deposits
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2013, 11:11:55 PM »
I'm actually impressed with the bible and how such old texts still do speak relevantly to modern man.  Solomon in Ecclesiastes talks about how the soul is never satisfied.

Well, the soul is never satisfied in Ecclesiastes, because the premise of the book, is that there was no afterlife. Either way you look at it, this holds.

I'm not sure what the point of the book is, at all. This site: https://www.biblicaltraining.org/blog/curious-christian/6-12-2012/what-main-point-book-ecclesiastes
says that the point of the book is a "what if" there was no afterlife judgement, and in the last lines, says God will judge us. Yet, the person who wrote the book, was from an era who didn't believe in any afterlife.

Notice that the character of the writing suddenly changes in chapter 12, almost as if an afterlife believer got to it, and changed the point of it.


Oh, wait. Who knows. Maybe it's not even from any era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes#Title.2C_date_and_author
Quote
Most commentators admit that knowing the date of Ecclesiastes with any certainty is impossible with the current available evidence,[14] though a post-exilic date is the current consensus position among critical scholars.[15] Many evangelical scholars argue a pre-exilic date, up to and including the time of Solomon,[16] but this view has not gained wide acceptance among critical scholars.[17]On linguistic grounds (the presence of Persian loan-words) the book points to a date no earlier than about 450 BC,[1] while the latest possible date for its composition is 180 BC, when another Jewish writer, Ben Sira, quotes from it.[18] Yet scholars disagree whether Ecclesiastes belongs to the Persian or the Hellenistic periods. The dispute revolves around the degree of Hellenization (influence of Greek culture and thought) present in the book. Scholars arguing for a Persian date (c. 450–330 BC) hold that there is a complete lack of Greek influence in the book;[1] those who argue for a Hellenistic date (c. 330–180 BC) argue that it shows internal evidence of Greek thought and social setting.[19]

apparently there is no basis to judge anything in Ecclesiastes, because nobody can decide what it means:

Quote
There is considerable disagreement among scholars as to just what Ecclesiastes is about; is it positive and life-affirming or deeply pessimistic?[24] Is Koheleth coherent or incoherent, insightful or confused, orthodox or heterodox? Is the ultimate message of the book to copy Koheleth, the wise man, or to avoid his errors?[25] Some passages of Ecclesiastes seem to contradict other portions of the Old Testament, and even itself.[24] One suggestion for resolving the contradictions is to read the book as the record of Koheleth's quest for knowledge: opposing judgements (e.g. the dead are better off than the living (4:2) vs. a living dog is better off than a dead lion (9:4)) are therefore provisional, and it is only at the conclusion that the verdict is delivered (11–12:7). On this reading, Koheleth's sayings are goads, designed to provoke dialogue and reflection in his readers, rather than to reach premature and self-assured conclusions.[26]

The subject of Ecclesiastes is the pain and frustration engendered by observing and meditating on the distortions and inequities pervading the world, the uselessness of human deeds, the limitations of wisdom and righteousness; all this coexists with a firm belief in God, whose power, justice and unpredictability are sovereign.[27] History and nature move in cycles, so that all events are predetermined and unchangeable, and life has no meaning or purpose: the wise man and the man who does not study wisdom will both die and be forgotten: man should be reverent ("Fear God"), but in this life it is best to simply enjoy God's gifts.[22]

Even if I could come up with a coherent way of interpreting it, there is no telling when it was written, or what purpose.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:23:08 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2013, 11:37:31 PM »


I'm actually impressed with the bible and how such old texts still do speak relevantly to modern man.

You are impressed with a message of hate then:

Luke 24:26
Dt 13:6-106(yes one hundred passages of hate)
Mark 6:11
Cor 11:6
Leviticus 20:13
Psalm 14
Dt 20:10-14
Genisis 19:24-26
Exodus 11:04
Exodus 7:5, 17
Exodus 10:02
Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38
Numbers 11:1-2
Numbers 14:18
Numbers 14:43-45
Numbers 16:28-35
Numbers 17:12-13
Numbers 33:50-52
Dt 2:14-16
Dt 2:25
Dt 3:3-6
2Kings: 1:9-12
Dt 4:3
Dt 7:10
Dt 22:22
Dt 25:1-3
Dt 28:20
Joshua 6:17
Joshua 9:21-27
Judges 1:4
Judges 4:15-16
Judges 11:29-39
Judges 12:06
Judges 14:04
1 Samuel 2:06, 25
1 Samuel 15: 18-19 (Particularly good in that God is upset that people aren't hating others sufficiently for his desire)

Yeah the amount of hate is impressive.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2013, 02:07:06 AM »
I'm actually impressed with the bible and how such old texts still do speak relevantly to modern man.  Solomon in Ecclesiastes talks about how the soul is never satisfied.  He doesn't hide his struggle, and we see that all over the place in western culture especially.  The wisdom in Proverbs is a good example of teaching. There is also in the new testament particularly, teaching of forgiveness, grace, discipline, love.  All good stuff and applicable for us today. 
I see the bible as clear teaching with a clear message about who God is and where salvation comes from.  Christ commands His followers to tell others, so I think that it is important that you not be confused and think that we need another new revelation from God.  It's here.
And again, what I've put in bold above is just clearly incorrect.  It is not clear.  Otherwise, why are there so many people in this world - you know, the people that god apparently actually cares for - who have the message so wrong or outright reject it as nonsense?  The success rate of the bible to convince people that salvation through belief in Jesus (and/or good works - again, depends on who you ask), is far too low.  Especially from a being purported to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent.

If you were teaching a class and 25%[1] of your students were outright failing, wouldn't you think to yourself that there is probably a better way to teach the material?
 1. And I'm being very generous here.  Ask India, China, or various Islamic countries about it.
In Romans, Paul addresses why people don't accept the message of the gospel.  The bible message is clear to me. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Christ as the Redeemer of our sin.   

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2013, 10:32:43 AM »
In Romans, Paul addresses why people don't accept the message of the gospel.  The bible message is clear to me. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Christ as the Redeemer of our sin.
Salvation[1] is by the grace[2] through faith in Christ[3] as the Redeemer[4] of our sin[5].

Not terribly clear.  It's short though - I'll give you that.

Again...there are a significant number of people who, for one reason or another, reject this ill-defined proclamation of the biblical message.  It's a low hit rate for an entity that supposedly wants to be known and wants his message to be clear.  It really is.  You're going to have to be specific with which passage(s) you're referring to from Paul, because the passages that excuse it as 'people just wanna be bad against god's message' doesn't really cut it.  Or is that really what you're sold on?  That big chunks of humanity are just wicked people?

I dunno.  You seem to have a pretty low opinion of god.  Either he is incapable of reaching out to large swaths of the people he so loves, or he just doesn't give a s**t about large swaths of the people he so loves.
 1. What does this mean?  Salvation from what?
 2. It's just given?  Gratis?
 3. I guess not just given.  Something is stipulated, but what is this something?  What do you mean by 'faith in Christ'?  Like, believe that he existed?  Exists?  Have faith that he will do certain actions?  Have faith that whatever someone wrote in a book is an accurate description of who this Christ is?
 4. Why the caps?
 5. What is sin?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2013, 10:38:06 AM »
So you actually mean a 66% fail rate Jdawg? Christians are 33% of world Pop. and the "true Christian" population has to be in the 15% range
Well, I was intentionally conservative with the number.  I always have a sneaking suspicion that many devout Christians have no idea the sheer number of people on the planet that do not share their belief.  I figured saying 25% would be easy enough to accept and still gets my point across.  I didn't want to get into an argument on the accuracy of the numbers - the ballpark will do.
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Offline Bumpy Ride

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2014, 01:00:08 PM »
Quote: If it feels like your going through hell right now, keep going! lol.

This isn't a trick question, or one that necessarily can't be answered in a sane manner.

Paul argues that Abraham got to heaven by faith, not law. Abe was ordered to kill his son, by Elohim, so he did so. This is the type of faith needed to get to be with God.

However, the synoptic gospels, written by Jewish Christians, seem to be of a view that you can get to heaven by following Jewish law in a different way.

The parable of Lazarus in Luke 16, documents a supposed case of a Jew going to heaven because he was poor and neglected:

[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


In pre-Christian times, it was widely believed by Pharisees that you got to heaven, if you were righteous. The logic and scripture for these beliefs has been destroyed by time; not propagated by Pauline Christians. We have evidence of this from the Ethiopian church.

At the end of the parable, there is the ambiguous statement:

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


The peculiarity of this statement in Luke, is that you have been warned so clearly by Moses and "the prophets" that you will go to hell, that you don't need any more warning. (Of course there is no warning at all in the O.T, about going to hell or hades. It just says you will go to sheol, no matter who you are.)

In the statement above, I left out some logic. You've been warned clearly that you will go to hell, IF you don't follow Jewish law. So, where do you go, if you do follow Jewish law? Perhaps to some other undiscovered place... or heaven, dare I say.

Christians say you can't go to the kingdom without Jesus, or unless you are a child, or unless God just decides to send you to heaven because you never heard of him, or unless you were good. There is an extensive list of exceptions.

The sneaky thing about the warning that Moses and the prophets have given, is that you have been warned in the O.T, that bad things will happen to you, if you disobey God, but not to any real degree. It's like a parent telling a child not to eat a stash of jelly beans because they are bad for them, but secretly hiding the fact that it's full of cyanide. Children are known to have little impulse control, so when the child eats a jelly bean, and starts to die, the parent can say "There, I told you it would be bad for you, but you disobeyed me." It sounds very like the Adam and Eve story, so it's not without precedent.

The problem is: why is Jesus telling an audience that Lazarus is a candidate for the kingdom of heaven, just because he is poor? Isn't this such a bad way of telling the moral, that he really should be shot? Carrying the jelly bean analogy further. It's like:

The ancient mythology of the jelly beans is that if you eat too many, they are bad for you. Then a great teacher comes along, and tells a story about how someone who didn't eat too many of them, was perfectly OK. He then leaves the jar of jelly beans in front of the children, and says "These are dietarily bad for you, and cause tooth decay, but they taste really good."

Maybe Jesus had to be crucified, because he was such a misleading teacher?