Author Topic: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?  (Read 3612 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« on: December 09, 2013, 12:24:58 AM »
This isn't a trick question, or one that necessarily can't be answered in a sane manner.

Paul argues that Abraham got to heaven by faith, not law. Abe was ordered to kill his son, by Elohim, so he did so. This is the type of faith needed to get to be with God.

However, the synoptic gospels, written by Jewish Christians, seem to be of a view that you can get to heaven by following Jewish law in a different way.

The parable of Lazarus in Luke 16, documents a supposed case of a Jew going to heaven because he was poor and neglected:

[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


In pre-Christian times, it was widely believed by Pharisees that you got to heaven, if you were righteous. The logic and scripture for these beliefs has been destroyed by time; not propagated by Pauline Christians. We have evidence of this from the Ethiopian church.

At the end of the parable, there is the ambiguous statement:

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


The peculiarity of this statement in Luke, is that you have been warned so clearly by Moses and "the prophets" that you will go to hell, that you don't need any more warning. (Of course there is no warning at all in the O.T, about going to hell or hades. It just says you will go to sheol, no matter who you are.)

In the statement above, I left out some logic. You've been warned clearly that you will go to hell, IF you don't follow Jewish law. So, where do you go, if you do follow Jewish law? Perhaps to some other undiscovered place... or heaven, dare I say.

Christians say you can't go to the kingdom without Jesus, or unless you are a child, or unless God just decides to send you to heaven because you never heard of him, or unless you were good. There is an extensive list of exceptions.

The sneaky thing about the warning that Moses and the prophets have given, is that you have been warned in the O.T, that bad things will happen to you, if you disobey God, but not to any real degree. It's like a parent telling a child not to eat a stash of jelly beans because they are bad for them, but secretly hiding the fact that it's full of cyanide. Children are known to have little impulse control, so when the child eats a jelly bean, and starts to die, the parent can say "There, I told you it would be bad for you, but you disobeyed me." It sounds very like the Adam and Eve story, so it's not without precedent.

The problem is: why is Jesus telling an audience that Lazarus is a candidate for the kingdom of heaven, just because he is poor? Isn't this such a bad way of telling the moral, that he really should be shot? Carrying the jelly bean analogy further. It's like:

The ancient mythology of the jelly beans is that if you eat too many, they are bad for you. Then a great teacher comes along, and tells a story about how someone who didn't eat too many of them, was perfectly OK. He then leaves the jar of jelly beans in front of the children, and says "These are dietarily bad for you, and cause tooth decay, but they taste really good."

Maybe Jesus had to be crucified, because he was such a misleading teacher?
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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 11:03:21 AM »
Or that he was an idiot. Could be many reasons.

;)

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Online wheels5894

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 06:05:37 AM »
I think this question is the wrong question - rather it should be 'how di the apostles use the death of Jesus on the Cross? It's OK, for Christians to look at it in the original way but it is clear that there is no god orchestrating life at all so it is clear that the events that took place had to be reacted to after the event.

In this case, an itinerant preacher gets put to death by the Romans  as he was seen as a leader of people who might cause problems in Jerusalem during th4e festival. the disciples saw their leader go  and either really experienced visions of him or invented them and, using the Septuagint as their source of inspiration, created the story believed by Christians today.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 06:25:08 AM »
...or he wasn't crucified at all but saulos needed a messiah to point to in order to convert people to his new version of judaism having failed as a rabbi himself.


Online wheels5894

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2013, 07:35:43 AM »
...or he wasn't crucified at all but saulos needed a messiah to point to in order to convert people to his new version of judaism having failed as a rabbi himself.

I'm not so sure of that. Paul appears to not know any of the stories about Jesus' life at all apart from the words at the last supper. He doesn't really ever mention anything about the earthly Jesus in his letters yet we have gospels full of stories of Jesus' earthly life. For me, I find it hard to conceive the idea that all the stories in the gospels are made up.

I do think some of the gospels is invented or, in some instances, the story is elaborated. We can see this when we compare mark and Matthew - Matthew embellishes Mark's accounts with much more detail. Given the time that has elapsed since the death of Jesus when Matthew is writing in the 70s, it is extremely unlikely Matthew has found a person who can tell him more detail.

Nonetheless, I think some of the basic accounts that Mark has have to have been based on a real person even if subsequently additional stories are made up to fit the problems at the time of writing.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 08:02:18 AM »
I'm not so sure of that. Paul appears to not know any of the stories about Jesus' life at all apart from the words at the last supper. He doesn't really ever mention anything about the earthly Jesus in his letters yet we have gospels full of stories of Jesus' earthly life. For me, I find it hard to conceive the idea that all the stories in the gospels are made up.

I do think some of the gospels is invented or, in some instances, the story is elaborated. We can see this when we compare mark and Matthew - Matthew embellishes Mark's accounts with much more detail. Given the time that has elapsed since the death of Jesus when Matthew is writing in the 70s, it is extremely unlikely Matthew has found a person who can tell him more detail.

Nonetheless, I think some of the basic accounts that Mark has have to have been based on a real person even if subsequently additional stories are made up to fit the problems at the time of writing.

I disagree. From what I have read, literally ALL of the evidence for even a historical Jesus seems to be spurious at best, and require you to assume Jesus existed. I read Bart Ehrman's book because he is one that I somewhat trust and not a  theist... I came out of that experience more convinced that no Jesus ever existed. His arguments reeked of theistic reasoning. I suggest reading it and responses to it. The responses confirm what I was thinking during the reading.

Has anyone to your knowledge put forward a convincing argument for Jesus' existence? If so I will read that. At this point I remain unconvinced because I cannot put much faith in the bible.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 08:20:28 AM »
This isn't a trick question, or one that necessarily can't be answered in a sane manner.

Paul argues that Abraham got to heaven by faith, not law. Abe was ordered to kill his son, by Elohim, so he did so. This is the type of faith needed to get to be with God.
Here Paul directly contradicts Jesus:
Joh:3:12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh:3:13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh:3:14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/quote]

No one in the OT went to heaven.
Quote
In pre-Christian times, it was widely believed by Pharisees that you got to heaven,
Paul was a Pharisee, so he was preaching in his own cause (again). I am unsure when in Pharasitical Judaism you got to heaven though.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 08:25:14 AM »
Because he had to sacrifice himself to himself because of an incident he caused making his creation flawed because he let it happen.

Wait...what?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 10:07:17 AM »
to get the guilt flowing before passing the donation plate.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 11:09:15 AM »
<snip>Nonetheless, I think some of the basic accounts that Mark has have to have been based on a real person even if subsequently additional stories are made up to fit the problems at the time of writing.

Why? If some of the story is made up isn't it entirely possible that all of it is made up?
Surely if the story were true it would be internally consistent enough not to warrant subsequent fabrication to make it work.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 11:36:35 AM »
Paul argues that Abraham got to heaven by faith, not law. Abe was ordered to kill his son, by Elohim, so he did so. This is the type of faith needed to get to be with God.

AH, I'm not sure Paul made the case for Abraham getting into Heaven. As I have read thru the OT, I fail to see even 1 promise concerning Heaven for those who followed God's law and were considered righteous. The whole idea of a Heavenly inheritance seemed to be a new concept 1st mentioned in the gospels that was limited by Jesus to those that were considered his.

However, the synoptic gospels, written by Jewish Christians, seem to be of a view that you can get to heaven by following Jewish law in a different way.

The parable of Lazarus in Luke 16, documents a supposed case of a Jew going to heaven because he was poor and neglected:

[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The parable in Luke 16 don't mention Heaven at all though. It instead seems to reference the Hellenized view of Hades. Additionally, it never makes the case that the beggar, Lazarus, was in fact a Jew. What it does tell the reader is that in the end, the rich man found himself in agony outside of the favored position of Abrahman while Lazarus got to be in that favored position the rich man saw as his own inheritance.

In pre-Christian times, it was widely believed by Pharisees that you got to heaven, if you were righteous. The logic and scripture for these beliefs has been destroyed by time; not propagated by Pauline Christians. We have evidence of this from the Ethiopian church.

After the end of the Seluclid reign over the Jews in a post Maccabean war society, it is said that the sect of Pharisees arose as sort of a separatist group that was grass roots. This group is said to have emphasized scrict Torah adherance and unlike the priestly class Sadducee counterparts, the Pharisees advocated a literal bodily resurrection of the dead in a future Messianic "age to come" where the Jewish Messiah would reign. As far as I am aware, no mention of going to Heaven was a part of Pharisee beliefs. They seem to have believed that the Kingdom of Heaven was not in Heaven, but on Earth and would be ruled by the Jewish Messiah in the "age to come."

So yes, they did believe that admittance to the Kingdom of Heaven was granted to those (Jews) that practiced righteous, which in their eyes consisted of scrict adherance to the Torah (seeing it as divine), the affirmation of the resurrection of the dead, and believing in divine intervention in human affairs.

Christians say you can't go to the kingdom without Jesus, or unless you are a child, or unless God just decides to send you to heaven because you never heard of him, or unless you were good. There is an extensive list of exceptions.

It's quite sad how this is handled by believers. I find it hard to believe I considered myself intelligent and informed while I promoted these very ideas. I guess it was a clear case of how dogmatic convictions can cloud judgment and make one blind to reality.

As I look back and consider these things now, it becomes apparant how wrong I was because for starters, I like most believers didn't have a clue what the kingdom that those ancient Jews were referencing was very likely not the Heaven we believed in. It's almost unbelievable how many Christians don't realize how little Heaven is mentioned in the OT.

The problem is: why is Jesus telling an audience that Lazarus is a candidate for the kingdom of heaven, just because he is poor?

Great question. There really is no way to answer this other than make wild guesses. My guess is that it was written to spite those, the Jewish leaders and Pharisees that didn't accept Jesus as being the Messiah.

Maybe Jesus had to be crucified, because he was such a misleading teacher?

Back to the OP. Why did Jesus have to be crucified? What a question.

Was it because it was prophesied in the OT that the Messiah would be? NO
 or
Was it because Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, yet those most familiar with the writings about the Messiah(s) saw him, called BS, and in keeping with the Torah laws concerning false prophets, deemed him worthy of death by capital punishment? MAYBE
 or
Was the story a fabricated one based on an amaglamation of would be Messiahs and Jewish tradition? WHO KNOWS?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 10:56:54 PM »

AH, I'm not sure Paul made the case for Abraham getting into Heaven.

That's interesting. I assumed that Paul had reasoned a semi-faulty case that Abraham had gone to heaven, using the OT. But when I google for whether Abraham is in heaven, all I get is Christians quoting Paul's assertion that he went there.

One shrewd person noticed the parable of Lazarus, that Paul couldn't have read in Luke. It refers to the "Bosom of Abraham". Last time I tried to track down that expression, it went nowhere. I read in Robert Wright's book that the Parable of Lazarus was just a story, based on an Egyptian story.  It may have been going around in Pharisee circles, so perhaps Paul was not reasoning from OT, but utilizing the common urban legend that Abraham went to a heaven.

I was a bit vague about whether Lazarus was in heaven. As you point out, it's a kind of Hellenized storage tank, which is pre-resurrection. However, this has precedent in non-canonical texts. All you really have to do, is demonstrate prior belief, to justify the parable of Lazarus:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html
Enoch Chapter 22

Enoch 22:1 From there I proceeded to another spot, where I saw on the west a great and lofty mountain, a strong rock, and four delightful places.
Enoch 22:2 Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold.
Enoch 22:3 Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men.
Enoch 22:4 These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period.
Enoch 22:5 Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing.
Enoch 22:6 Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses?
Enoch 22:7 He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed be destroyed from the face of the earth;
Enoch 22:8 Until his seed perish from the seed of the human race.
Enoch 22:9 At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, Why is one separated from another? He answered, Three separations have been made between the spirits of the dead, and thus have the spirits of the righteous been separated.
Enoch 22:10 Namely, by a chasm, by water, and by light above it.
Enoch 22:11 And in the same way likewise are sinners separated when they die, and are buried in the earth; judgment not overtaking them in their lifetime.
Enoch 22:12 Here their souls are separated. Moreover, abundant is their suffering until the time of the great judgment, the castigation, and the torment of those who eternally execrate, whose souls are punished and bound there for ever.
Enoch 22:13 And thus has it been from the beginning of the world. Thus has there existed a separation between the souls of those who utter complaints, and of those who watch for their destruction, to slaughter them in the day of sinners.
Enoch 22:14 A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place. Then I blessed God,
Enoch 22:15 And said, Blessed by my Lord, the Lord of glory and of righteousness, who reigns over all for ever and for ever.


I can't really make out the logic of what is what, but clearly, everyone in this place, is awaiting judgment. I think there are 3 categories of person. Cat1 makes it's way to heaven. Cat2 gets judged and slain. Cat3 gets to stay in hell forever, because they eternally execrate(?).  Maybe they are just unrepentant sinners.

This page discusses the legitimacy of the Book of Enoch.
http://www.geocreationism.com/history/book-of-enoch-introduction.html
The writer is unsure of whether the OT was derived from it, or whether Enoch is midrash. The writer thinks that it is part of Pharisee oral law, and has been around since the beginning.

This ancient afterlife model is very similar to the situation in the parable, but makes no mention of Abraham. Perhaps Abe was inserted later. In any case, it shows that Pharisees believed in hell after death, and a judgement, later. (ALL WITHOUT JESUS, OF COURSE)

The Saduccees did not believe in judgement or resurrection, so they presumably kept the text out of the Jewish canon.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:58:32 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 09:52:36 PM »
Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy justice.  Justice needs to be done and that idea even is what we practice in our court system today.
Sin entered the world and the natural and observable order of things in our world and our universe can be likened to the first law of thermodynamics.  That energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.  So when sin entered the world and continues to this day.  Each time, there is a payment that must be made for sin.  For example:  If I steal from you, you lose something and I get it.  If I destroy that thing, then I must pay for it, or insurance does, or you.....but someone has to pay for that item.
So in the big picture, when we all sin, the payment is stacking up.  Because God's plan for the universe is a plan for it to be sin free and perfect.  So Christ came into our world to pay for the sin of all who will believe in Him.  In the end, there will be a judgement day for those who do not believe.  They will make their own payment. 
- Patrick Henry

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 10:28:33 PM »
Patrick, you fail to realize that getting justice by sacrificing an innocent (apparently sinless) man is certainly not how a civilization should work.

You should also realize that "sin" often relates to almost anything most men do, i mean lets face it, men lust for women often, there will always be homosexuals, in all reality, its discrimination.
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Offline Willie

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 10:40:05 PM »
Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy justice.  Justice needs to be done and that idea even is what we practice in our court system today.

I don't think any modern judge would require or accept one man's punishment in payment for another man's crime. Nor do I think that any person of sound mind and good conscience could consider that "justice".
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:12:58 PM by Willie »

Offline Willie

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 11:10:29 PM »
Sin entered the world and the natural and observable order of things in our world and our universe can be likened to the first law of thermodynamics.  That energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.  So when sin entered the world and continues to this day.  Each time, there is a payment that must be made for sin.  For example:  If I steal from you, you lose something and I get it.  If I destroy that thing, then I must pay for it, or insurance does, or you.....but someone has to pay for that item.
So in the big picture, when we all sin, the payment is stacking up.  Because God's plan for the universe is a plan for it to be sin free and perfect.  So Christ came into our world to pay for the sin of all who will believe in Him.  In the end, there will be a judgement day for those who do not believe.  They will make their own payment. 

Sin is neither matter nor energy. It is an idea. It cannot be meaningfully quantified or measured. Your equating it with matter and energy and asserting that it should be governed by the first LOT has no basis, neither empirical nor theoretical. It doesn't even qualify as a hypothesis, but is merely fantasy. Tell me, Patrick, if you covet your neighbor's wife, exactly how much sin is that, and what's the unit of measure? And since, according to you, sin can be neither created nor destroyed, where exactly did that sin come from? Did some other potential sinner have to commit less sin so that you could commit yours? And if you choose not to commit a sin, does someone else then have to commit more? Do you not see how absurd this is?

Did you really think that you could come here and convince us by dressing up your religious fantasies to make 'em look more "sciency"?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:38:33 PM by Willie »

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2013, 11:13:23 PM »
Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy justice.  Justice needs to be done and that idea even is what we practice in our court system today.
Sin entered the world and the natural and observable order of things in our world and our universe can be likened to the first law of thermodynamics.  That energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.  So when sin entered the world and continues to this day.  Each time, there is a payment that must be made for sin.  For example:  If I steal from you, you lose something and I get it.  If I destroy that thing, then I must pay for it, or insurance does, or you.....but someone has to pay for that item.
So in the big picture, when we all sin, the payment is stacking up.  Because God's plan for the universe is a plan for it to be sin free and perfect.  So Christ came into our world to pay for the sin of all who will believe in Him.  In the end, there will be a judgement day for those who do not believe.  They will make their own payment. 
- Patrick Henry

Well, first of all, welcome, Patrick Henry, even though I don't think the two of us are going to agree on much. Lets hope that you have more than one life to give this thread, though.

As a full-blown atheist who sees what you call "sin" as merely the byproduct of a less than perfectly evolved set of beings, living in a less than perfect world and in a less that perfect set of social situations, I see this "balance" thingy as yet another set of excuses for christians.

This payment deal: how can humans measure it? We're the ones doing it, how in the world are we supposed to measure it too? If I steal five bucks from you, you lose it. Now you said if I destroy it, than I have a debt. But what if I spend it? I get something else, like food. What if I eat the food. I get the energy, do I also destroy the five bucks and make my sin somehow worse? What if I steal it, feel bad, and give the five bucks to the Salvation Army? Am I even in that specific case, or did I make it worse somehow?

What if I stole five bucks from you, but you earned that five bucks by overcharging for a bag of popcorn? Do two wrongs make a right? What if, when I am running across the road to escape your attempt to get the money back I cause an accident, and a person injured in the crash goes to the hospital and while there being treated for non life threatening wounds, the doctor finds cancer and the medical community is able to save that persons life because they found it in time. Do I get any credit for doing something good?

We have no economy for sins. The bible doesn't describe one. It describes sins, yes, but there are no lessons about how to measure them, how to reconcile the sin books, how to figure out our sin taxes. As per your book, we are born into sin debt and it only gets worse with every breathe we take, because as much as your god loves us, he's still a bit piqued about the garden affair, something that he, since he is only omniscient, couldn't see coming. I have been told by other christians that if a person is not "saved" before they die, into the overheated basement they go. Which means my wonderfully warm and caring great grandmother, who carefully carried bugs out of her house instead of squishing them, is deep-frying even as we speak while some mass murderer who found JC three minutes before his execution is hanging around in heaven with Pat Boone and 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.

Which means human sins, if measured and balanced and the cause of indebtedness and bought and old on the stock market and such, are horrible, horrible, horrible, while the game your god is playing is the ultimate frisbee of righteousness.

I prefer being an atheist. I don't have to steal five bucks to put in the collection plate on Sunday and I can measure right and wrong on a sliding scale, versus one where every sin is equally wrong, no matter how minor or major.

People aren't perfect. And a good way to keep them that way is to make up stuff and pretend its real. It gives folks even more ways to do it wrong.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 11:29:40 PM »
Patrick, welcome.

Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy justice.  Justice needs to be done and that idea even is what we practice in our court system today.
I'm not sure that this a good analogy. First, if justice was done, then there would be no more need for further justice. So, did Jesus atone for mankind's sins or not?

Taking your analogy further, other than Christianity, can you tell us of system of justice that condemns people to infinite torture for finite actions committed by others? Further, which justice system judges the majority of people in this planet as guilty without a trial, particularly when many would have no reason to be aware of this law?

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Sin entered the world and the natural and observable order of things in our world and our universe can be likened to the first law of thermodynamics.  That energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.  So when sin entered the world and continues to this day.  Each time, there is a payment that must be made for sin.  For example:  If I steal from you, you lose something and I get it.  If I destroy that thing, then I must pay for it, or insurance does, or you.....but someone has to pay for that item.
What, in your interpretation, is "sin"?

You mention the laws of thermodynamics by way of analogy. Does your god obey the natural laws as we understand them? If not, then how can you claim that "sin" is something that in any way has an analog to the laws of thermodynamics? You seem like reasonable fellow, I hope you won't do the science when it suits you but not when it doesn't thing.

Insurance, That's when you pay someone else to pay you back should you have a loss. With insurance you pay twice. Once for the item, once for the insurance. Also, even when aggregated, the money I might get back from insurance is not from some guilty party, it's from someone who is innocent of my loss. Or, is your analogy of insurance more akin to protection money as demanded from the mob?

So, back to sin. What is the payment for sin? Earlier you said that Jesus satisfied this matter with his death. Now he hasn't because I have to pay even though he paid? Pretty much a waste of his time then, wasn't it? What did Jesus achieve that everyone forever must continue to pay for his supposed payment? This is where I go "Huh?".

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So in the big picture, when we all sin, the payment is stacking up.  Because God's plan for the universe is a plan for it to be sin free and perfect.

Still wondering what sin is and if I've never had an opportunity to be aware of the rules how you hold me accountable? Also, is your god omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent? Apparently not seeing as (a) his plan as Jesus failed and (b) I'm supposed to pay because Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough?

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So Christ came into our world to pay for the sin of all who will believe in Him.  In the end, there will be a judgement day for those who do not believe.  They will make their own payment.

Oh, so Jesus came to pay, but it wasn't enough, even though he was god and now we mortals have to pay your god because his payment to himself wasn't sufficient?

That doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you could clarify these contradictions? And welcome again.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 12:42:28 AM »
Jesus had to be crucified to satisfy justice.  Justice needs to be done and that idea even is what we practice in our court system today.
Sin entered the world and the natural and observable order of things in our world and our universe can be likened to the first law of thermodynamics.  That energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.  So when sin entered the world and continues to this day.  Each time, there is a payment that must be made for sin.  For example:  If I steal from you, you lose something and I get it.  If I destroy that thing, then I must pay for it, or insurance does, or you.....but someone has to pay for that item.
So in the big picture, when we all sin, the payment is stacking up.  Because God's plan for the universe is a plan for it to be sin free and perfect.  So Christ came into our world to pay for the sin of all who will believe in Him.  In the end, there will be a judgement day for those who do not believe.  They will make their own payment. 
- Patrick Henry
So the first few times failed,when he kicked A&E out of the Garden,the flood and then the sacrifice of "Jesus" still not a perfect world,God is a fuck up. If he wanted a perfect world there would be no snake in the garden to begin with and A&E would have intelligence enough to know they were being swindled by a "talking snake"

 God is a failure from the start,or of course,the clearest explanation he does not exist
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Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 01:42:47 PM »
I'm sure it was God's plan all along.  The garden, flood.....everything.  BTW.....using curse words isn't helpful, and makes you sound unintelligent.  Though I'm sure you are a smart person.  If you want to have an adult conversation then let's have one.  Otherwise I won't respond in the future.
Patrick

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 01:54:38 PM »
I'm sure it was God's plan all along.  The garden, flood.....everything.  BTW.....using curse words isn't helpful, and makes you sound unintelligent.  Though I'm sure you are a smart person.  If you want to have an adult conversation then let's have one.  Otherwise I won't respond in the future.
Patrick

Mmm, so in that case why did god life to Adam, telling him that if he ate the fruit he would die, whereas the wily snake gets it right saying, 'of course you won't die.' Why, too, does god blame Adam when he does not have the means to distinguish good from evil (as he had not eaten the fruit)? Really, god does seem to have got some things wrong in this story - unless we don't understand it correctly and it is really an explanation of how snakes come to be and why we don't like them.

We could have a run through creation to see if god got things right there, but let's stick with the apple and snake story first.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 02:33:06 PM »
I'm sure it was God's plan all along.  The garden, flood.....everything.  BTW.....using curse words isn't helpful, and makes you sound unintelligent.  Though I'm sure you are a smart person.  If you want to have an adult conversation then let's have one.  Otherwise I won't respond in the future.
Patrick
I could care less if you respond to my posts. If it was God's plan to bring about the flood through failure he is a murdering insane being,not a god. If it was further to this beings plan to murder himself,,,again through a failure to educate the beings he created,he is again a failure

 Education through trial and error on this gods part,it means he either failed to do the work to bring about success or the most plausible explanation he is an imaginary construct of ancient cave dwellers that somehow still works to control idiots through fear.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 02:36:57 PM »
I'm sure it was God's plan all along.  The garden, flood.....everything.  BTW.....using curse words isn't helpful, and makes you sound unintelligent.  Though I'm sure you are a smart person.  If you want to have an adult conversation then let's have one.  Otherwise I won't respond in the future.
Patrick

Mmm, so in that case why did god life to Adam, telling him that if he ate the fruit he would die, whereas the wily snake gets it right saying, 'of course you won't die.' Why, too, does god blame Adam when he does not have the means to distinguish good from evil (as he had not eaten the fruit)? Really, god does seem to have got some things wrong in this story - unless we don't understand it correctly and it is really an explanation of how snakes come to be and why we don't like them.

We could have a run through creation to see if god got things right there, but let's stick with the apple and snake story first.
As we see Eve did not die so the snake told the truth and this god character lied about what happens if you eat the fruit. Deception from God,truth from Satan
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 02:42:33 PM »
We got us another one. Paying attention to one person's swearing and totally ignoring the comments of others who didn't happen to choose to four letter words at the time. Presumably because he had no good response.

Guess I should have cussed. Then at least he would have been able to understand one thing I said. Oh well.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 02:51:10 PM »
We got us another one. Paying attention to one person's swearing and totally ignoring the comments of others who didn't happen to choose to four letter words at the time. Presumably because he had no good response.

Guess I should have cussed. Then at least he would have been able to understand one thing I said. Oh well.
I noticed as well he failed to address the question,other to say God must have planned it that way. This makes this god a crazed murderous psychotic,not something to be praised
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2013, 03:02:03 PM »
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Planned bitches!

Italics are mine. When you eat it. Not if you eat it or if you get hungry and think the fruit of knowledge looks tasty. Or incase you know... some talking snake suggests you give it a try.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2013, 03:12:01 PM »
I rather thought this god we are talking about was one of the 3 omni kind -all knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. Now if that's the case,

1. He would have know before he created anything what would happen if he created in a particular way

2. he would have know what would happen when he told Adam about the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Heck, if this tree was so significant, why plant it within reach of the people? )

3. By the time he has killed everyone with a flood (as he knew he would have to), surely he would have known how to re-populate the earth so as to make sure he didn't need to deploy Jesus.

These are important questions and ones that there ought to be good answers for. Frankly, if we resort to things like, 'we don't know' not only are we giving up on knowledge but we are also opening the door wide to the question, 'why should this god be worshipped or even believed in when he couldn't create that well?'

Of course, as usual, this has already been thought of by the Greeks....

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Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Greek philosopher:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »
I rather thought this god we are talking about was one of the 3 omni kind -all knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. Now if that's the case,

1. He would have know before he created anything what would happen if he created in a particular way

2. he would have know what would happen when he told Adam about the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Heck, if this tree was so significant, why plant it within reach of the people? )

3. By the time he has killed everyone with a flood (as he knew he would have to), surely he would have known how to re-populate the earth so as to make sure he didn't need to deploy Jesus.

These are important questions and ones that there ought to be good answers for. Frankly, if we resort to things like, 'we don't know' not only are we giving up on knowledge but we are also opening the door wide to the question, 'why should this god be worshipped or even believed in when he couldn't create that well?'

Of course, as usual, this has already been thought of by the Greeks....

Quote
Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Greek philosopher:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
flooding the earth with pre-knowledge of the fact he would,makes him no more than a mass murderer
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online wheels5894

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be crucified?
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 03:25:59 PM »
Genocide, really!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)