Author Topic: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City  (Read 1343 times)

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Offline wright

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Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« on: December 05, 2013, 02:48:02 AM »
Hm. Second Satan-related thread I've started in a week  ;D.

From the Friendly Atheist: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/04/the-satanic-temple-wants-to-place-a-monument-outside-oklahomas-capitol-building-what-could-possibly-go-wrong/

In brief, the Satanic Temple wants to place their own monument outside the Oklahoma City State Capitol building. There's already one to the Ten Commandments there, so according to Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves:
Quote
“by accepting our offer, the good people of Oklahoma City will have the opportunity to show that they espouse the basic freedoms spelled out in the Constitution. We imagine that the ACLU would also embrace such a response. Allowing us to donate a monument would show that the Oklahoma City Council does not discriminate, and both the religious and non-religious should be happy with such an outcome. Our mission is to bring people together by finding common sentiments that create solutions that everyone can appreciate and enjoy.”

This particular Temple espouses what seems a rather healthy skepticism, seeing Satan as both symbol and allegory for resistance to oppression, not a being / deity to be worshipped. In the words of one commentator in the linked article:
Quote
These guys sound more though like the Anton LaVey verity. It's called "satanism" but it's really more of a living critique of christian morality and culture. As he said "We reject supernaturalism", this is the version of "satanism" that is pretty much atheist who are living a from of religious theater. You can think of them more as religious pranksters, or rabble rousers.

Greaves himself goes on to say:
Quote
We threaten to overturn a misguided sense of religious exceptionalism that has plagued the United States for a very long time. We promise to engage actively in political/cultural dialogues and re-assert religious pluralism. People who fear a challenge to the Judeo-Christian religiopolitical monopoly are correct to fear us. We assert that religion, at its best, is a narrative construct by which practitioners contextualize their lives. We believe that religious narrative should be malleable to conform to the best scientific evidence. We reject supernaturalism and strive to approach all things with reasonable agnosticism. Charlatans, mystic snake-oil salespeople, cults, pseudoscientists, witch-hunting conspiracists, and the like all are correct to fear us. We will be merciless in our debunking and discrediting of their exploitative practices. We will assert the rights of religious non-believers everywhere, and those who hold pious and pompous positions of arbitrary authority based on superstition and/or pseudoscience are wise to view us as a distinct threat.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 02:54:08 AM »
I think we know how it'll play out.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline wright

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 03:45:06 AM »
I think we know how it'll play out.

-Nam

Just because it's a somewhat formulaic plot doesn't mean we can't enjoy this latest remake.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 05:59:37 AM »
I like. Has there been some sort of response?

Offline Nam

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 06:04:45 AM »
I think we know how it'll play out.

-Nam

Just because it's a somewhat formulaic plot doesn't mean we can't enjoy this latest remake.

True but it does get cliché after awhile.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline wright

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 01:03:35 PM »
I like. Has there been some sort of response?

I think the article says the Temple only just sent the proposal to the city and got the appropriate paperwork started. The approval process and public response will be the acid test. The Satanic Temple is deliberately stirring the pot to highlight Christian privilege; they're pretty upfront about that.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 01:09:14 PM »
Just because it's a somewhat formulaic plot doesn't mean we can't enjoy this latest remake.
It's like a Law & Order episode.

Same schtick goes down, everyone watching knows pretty much what's going to happen, but we still look forward to a Lenny zinger and a McCoy a**-handing.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 04:55:54 PM »
Quote
Allowing us to donate a monument would show that the Oklahoma City Council does not discriminate

From what I've read in the news, the Oklahoma City Council does descriminate, knows they descriminate, and are just fine with descriminating.

I'll go make some popcorn - this should be fun to watch.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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When zeal trumps logic
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 05:32:23 PM »
As a native of Oklahoma, I could not help but laugh at the unintended consequences even after the legislators were warned about the wording.  This should prove interesting.....

http://news.msn.com/us/satanists-seek-spot-on-oklahoma-statehouse-steps

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When zeal trumps logic
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »
Old news.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25979.0.html

I have just GOT to quit thinking that I am coming across something new and do a little homework before posting something new with you guys. 

Oh well....another brick on the road to Hell, I suppose (good intentions and all that).  :)

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Offline Nam

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Re: When zeal trumps logic
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 11:05:49 AM »
Don't worry OCG, some atheists do that too.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline The Gawd

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Re: When zeal trumps logic
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 02:10:33 PM »
I wouldnt worry OCG, youre not that late, Mississippi on the other hand just freed the slaves this year.......in 2013.

Offline neopagan

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Welcome to the slippery slope, Oklahoma - Satanist monument at Statehouse?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 02:53:49 PM »
http://newsok.com/satanists-seek-spot-on-oklahoma-statehouse-steps/article/3912765

Quote
In their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including satanists who are seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument on the Statehouse steps.


As usual, the comments are both a laugh riot and depressing...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Welcome to the slippery slope, Oklahoma - Satanist monument at Statehouse?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 02:58:20 PM »
Don't we already have a topic on this? Or, now three?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Aaron123

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Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Nam

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline neopagan

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Re: Welcome to the slippery slope, Oklahoma - Satanist monument at Statehouse?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 04:32:39 PM »
So there is - may the g(m)ods send this one to a fiery death...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline wright

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2013, 07:58:25 PM »
Update: to no one's surprise, the local Christians are a bit upset that non-Christians are exercising their Constitutional rights...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/10/oklahoma-legislator-who-supports-ten-commandments-monument-slams-satanic-temples-proposal-for-being-too-religious/

What a bald-faced lie: saying the Ten Commandments monument already present is "historical", but the proposed Satanic one is "for religious purposes" and will therefore be denied. Open up your collective mouth and shove that hobnailed boot in deeper, hypocrites:
Quote
“This is a faith-based nation and a faith-based state,” said Rep. Earl Sears, R-Bartlesville. “I think it is very offensive they would contemplate or even have this kind of conversation.”

Those two-faced Christians-of-convenience can shove from one end and the courts will plant their boot in the other. Maybe the two will meet somewhere near their collective prostate...
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 08:07:48 PM »
One thing I know for sure.  If those Satanists put up a monument, and then there is a tornado somewhere in Oklahoma, it will be the Satanists' fault. 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2013, 08:15:28 PM »
The push to have a satanic monument erected seems rather childish to me. If it was wrong in the first place for the Ten Commandments monument to be erected, they should focus on having it removed. Trying to have their own monument erected seems like a position of "two wrongs equals a right". It's like noticing that other motorists are speeding without being fined, so you speed up as well, even though you had no desire to speed prior. If they can do it, so should we.

Having said that, I doubt it is a serious proposal.
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Offline wright

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 08:38:01 PM »
The push to have a satanic monument erected seems rather childish to me. If it was wrong in the first place for the Ten Commandments monument to be erected, they should focus on having it removed. Trying to have their own monument erected seems like a position of "two wrongs equals a right". It's like noticing that other motorists are speeding without being fined, so you speed up as well, even though you had no desire to speed prior. If they can do it, so should we.

Having said that, I doubt it is a serious proposal.

If you read the linked articles, you'll find the openly stated goal of the Satanic Temple is to point out the ultimate result of saying it's okay to put explicitly religious monuments in public spaces: everyone is entitled to do so. In the US, it's fundamental that there can't be government endorsement of a particular faith, so the courts have consistently agreed that either you allow everyone to express their religious sentiments, or no one.

So in that sense, yes, it's serious. This kind of "religious creep" into public life is potentially very serious, magic. Cases like this highlight both the absurdity of that and the necessity of keeping religion the f*ck out of places where it has no business being.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2013, 11:19:10 PM »
^^^Adding to wright's point, this is also a tax payer issue. These fights keep happening, and no matter anyone's opinion, the Separation of Church and State is still in place in the US.

The taxpayer end up footing the bill every single time these fights get dragged into court. I'd be a little less infuriated by that if it wasn't always the same outcome, but the strategy isn't about winning court battles, it's about (a small group) fighting to make the US a theocracy, on the taxpayer dime. The taxpayer, who probably would prefer to spend their tax dollars on things of actual benefit, and probably doesn't realize what a colossal waste of time, money, and resources these stupid no-way-to-win battles end up being. I don't care who pays for the monument, the taxpayers end up paying the legal fees. It's criminally irresponsible for local officials to behave this way.

Screw that noise - enough with the same endless court results! Either stop putting christian monuments up in the first place, or allow any and every religion equal opportunity. Because this IS America and that's how it supposed to work. Our governing document is the Constitution, not the bible.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2013, 07:33:09 AM »
magic - in the U.S., there is a group of people who truly want a theocracy.  It may seem bizarre to hear, but I have heard directly from people who want this.  And given the level that many will go to push their version of morality into our laws, I see no reason to believe it is not very serious.  This is now one of the main reasons I call myself atheist.  I will fight to keep the U.S. a secular nation, and I will fight to let people know that believing in a god is not the only way to be a part of any society.

Live and let live is NOT a part of the Christian doctrine, sadly.

Offline Jag

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2013, 09:27:53 AM »
magic - in the U.S., there is a group of people who truly want a theocracy.  It may seem bizarre to hear, but I have heard directly from people who want this.  And given the level that many will go to push their version of morality into our laws, I see no reason to believe it is not very serious.  This is now one of the main reasons I call myself atheist.  I will fight to keep the U.S. a secular nation, and I will fight to let people know that believing in a god is not the only way to be a part of any society.

Live and let live is NOT a part of the Christian doctrine, sadly.
I was very happily minding my own business about religion for years. The intrusion of religion into governance is why I started speaking up and out about atheism.

Were it not for this small group of theocracy minded citizens, I'd still be happily minding my own business about religion. Tired of me? Thank the Koch brothers.
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Offline Shaffy

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2013, 09:59:26 AM »
 :laugh: this going to be fun to watch :-X

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Offline Jag

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 10:28:48 AM »
THIS is what I've been waiting for: Hindu's want to be represented too.

The line that made me laugh out loud: Rajan Zed stated that he had written to Oklahoma State Capitol Preservation Commission Chair Trait Thompson and others for detailed procedure, required forms, conditions to be met for approval, size and dimensions of the statue, etc., for permission to erect the Lord Hanuman statue, which they planned to make big and weather-proof.

With another non-christian religion asking for space for a monument, why, I do believe sh!t just got real.

Edited to add: Hemant (Friendly Atheist) has a post up as well: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/10/not-to-be-outdone-by-the-satanists-now-a-hindu-group-wants-a-monument-at-the-oklahoma-capitol/
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:32:12 AM by Jag »
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 11:48:39 AM »
^^^

This should be fun to watch.   ;D

Looks like we need to make more popcorn...
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Satanists propose monument in Oklahoma City
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2013, 11:20:58 PM »
Hm. Second Satan-related thread I've started in a week  ;D.

From the Friendly Atheist: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/04/the-satanic-temple-wants-to-place-a-monument-outside-oklahomas-capitol-building-what-could-possibly-go-wrong/

In brief, the Satanic Temple wants to place their own monument outside the Oklahoma City State Capitol building. There's already one to the Ten Commandments there, so according to Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves:
Quote
“by accepting our offer, the good people of Oklahoma City will have the opportunity to show that they espouse the basic freedoms spelled out in the Constitution. We imagine that the ACLU would also embrace such a response. Allowing us to donate a monument would show that the Oklahoma City Council does not discriminate, and both the religious and non-religious should be happy with such an outcome. Our mission is to bring people together by finding common sentiments that create solutions that everyone can appreciate and enjoy.”

This particular Temple espouses what seems a rather healthy skepticism, seeing Satan as both symbol and allegory for resistance to oppression, not a being / deity to be worshipped. In the words of one commentator in the linked article:
Quote
These guys sound more though like the Anton LaVey verity. It's called "satanism" but it's really more of a living critique of christian morality and culture. As he said "We reject supernaturalism", this is the version of "satanism" that is pretty much atheist who are living a from of religious theater. You can think of them more as religious pranksters, or rabble rousers.

Greaves himself goes on to say:
Quote
We threaten to overturn a misguided sense of religious exceptionalism that has plagued the United States for a very long time. We promise to engage actively in political/cultural dialogues and re-assert religious pluralism. People who fear a challenge to the Judeo-Christian religiopolitical monopoly are correct to fear us. We assert that religion, at its best, is a narrative construct by which practitioners contextualize their lives. We believe that religious narrative should be malleable to conform to the best scientific evidence. We reject supernaturalism and strive to approach all things with reasonable agnosticism. Charlatans, mystic snake-oil salespeople, cults, pseudoscientists, witch-hunting conspiracists, and the like all are correct to fear us. We will be merciless in our debunking and discrediting of their exploitative practices. We will assert the rights of religious non-believers everywhere, and those who hold pious and pompous positions of arbitrary authority based on superstition and/or pseudoscience are wise to view us as a distinct threat.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

The whole story is hilarious.  Apparently the lawmakers were warned about the wording but in their zeal to show that they knew what they were doing, the advice was ignored.

Almost sad when zeal trumps logic and reason.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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