Author Topic: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)  (Read 8351 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #377 on: December 08, 2013, 07:29:20 PM »
The topic as we both understood it was if we were ommni-max what would we do,I answered.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #378 on: December 08, 2013, 07:37:51 PM »

My point is that noone of us contribute what we can for the hungry. We could all do more, often a lot more. I make this point only in response to the assertion by Median that he would eliminate starvation if he was limitless. I want to know why this is necessarily true, based on what we know about ourselves.

"What we can" is quite relative and is also completely aside from the subject.

Of course its relative. A person with disposable income has a greater ability to do charitable works than somebody who doesn't, for instance. But that doesn't change the fact that you could, if you really wanted to, do more charitable works than you do. Don't be so scared to just concede that this is the case..I don't judge you. I am right alongside you in that particualr boat.

And it isn't aside from the subject which I addressed from within your post - it is absolutely relevant to the assertion you made.


 I'm not going to quibble with you about what "all you can do" means b/c you don't get to define that for me. I do plenty now and will continue, and this says nothing about what I would do if I had unlimited capacity.

I don't question whether you do plenty now. I believe you do, and good on you for doing it. But I disagree that it says nothing about what you would do if you had unlimited capacity. Or at least, I wanted to explore that further. Because logic would seem to suggest that something is preventing you from doing more than you currently do. I am interested to have you identify what that something is, and discuss why that something would cease to be a factor if you had unlimited capacity.

If you don't care to discuss it...just frikking say so for once. I won't think less of you.


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Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #379 on: December 08, 2013, 07:38:49 PM »
It's really funny that he started this piddly quibble with me about what I would do. Is he then saying that HE would NOT eliminate poverty, homelessness, and starvation in an instant if he had unlimited powers (as supposedly this 'God' thing has)? It would be quite interesting to see him admit that, wouldn't it?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #380 on: December 08, 2013, 07:39:28 PM »
The topic as we both understood it was if we were ommni-max what would we do,I answered.

That was not the very specific question I asked Angus (or Alexis, I don't know who's on duty today).
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #381 on: December 08, 2013, 07:43:04 PM »
It's really funny that he started this piddly quibble with me about what I would do. Is he then saying that HE would NOT eliminate poverty, homelessness, and starvation in an instant if he had unlimited powers (as supposedly this 'God' thing has)? It would be quite interesting to see him admit that, wouldn't it?

What's amusing about it?

I don't do everthying I can do right now to alleviate suffering because I care more for my own comfort and well-being than I do for those suffering. And because I am lazy. I know that to be true...about myself.

Would those traits disappear if I had unlimited power? And if they didn't, would they still prevent me from eliminating suffering? I do not know.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #382 on: December 08, 2013, 07:49:46 PM »

I don't question whether you do plenty now. I believe you do, and good on you for doing it. But I disagree that it says nothing about what you would do if you had unlimited capacity. Or at least, I wanted to explore that further. Because logic would seem to suggest that something is preventing you from doing more than you currently do. I am interested to have you identify what that something is, and discuss why that something would cease to be a factor if you had unlimited capacity.

If you don't care to discuss it...just frikking say so for once. I won't think less of you.

First, I don't give two shits what you think of me. Second, "logic" doesn't indicate anything. So you are off it right from the git-go. You can disbelieve that I would end world hunger if I had unlimited resources to do so and I don't care whether you do or you don't. It means nothing to me. Whether or not I am doing "all I can" or "could do more" doesn't 'indicate' anything (even if you WANT it to in order to protect your theology) about what I would do if things were limitless. Ask yourself if YOU would, and that answer will be sufficient to continue the discussion we were having (which you so rudely and irrationally derailed) regarding your alleged "all-loving" deity.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Traveler

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #383 on: December 08, 2013, 07:50:05 PM »
Here would be my SPAG god (if one existed), and it wouldn't have anything to do with the bible. It would create a world where people could easily enough support their basic needs so that we could pursue becoming our greatest, wisest selves. It would encourage learning, growth, love, kindness. It would want us to grow and wouldn't put endless obstacles in the way of so many people that their lives are spent in misery. Instead of petty threats of hell, it would teach through positive reinforcement.



Hi Traveler, I have some questions about this:

* Are you talking about the creation of humans as we know them today?

I don't see what difference that would make.

Quote
* If yes to above, does your God grant free will?

As much as free will CAN exist, of course.

Quote
* If yes to above, what would your God do in response to human decisions and actions that cause suffering?

Have you heard of a movement called "peaceful parenting?" There are ways to guide people to kindness without punishment or reprogramming them. It would require a god(dess) who actually showed up and talked with people of course. And if this god(dess) created people from scratch, it certainly seems that a perfect god(dess) would be capable of creating a species that was not prone to such anti-social defects as serial-killer psychopathy.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #384 on: December 08, 2013, 07:51:05 PM »
It's really funny that he started this piddly quibble with me about what I would do. Is he then saying that HE would NOT eliminate poverty, homelessness, and starvation in an instant if he had unlimited powers (as supposedly this 'God' thing has)? It would be quite interesting to see him admit that, wouldn't it?

What's amusing about it?

I don't do everthying I can do right now to alleviate suffering because I care more for my own comfort and well-being than I do for those suffering. And because I am lazy. I know that to be true...about myself.

Would those traits disappear if I had unlimited power? And if they didn't, would they still prevent me from eliminating suffering? I do not know.
Does this mean you are not really "like" Jesus or even act "like" him or just that you will be forgiven for your inaction and lazy attitude for others,and looking out after your own interests,directly in violation of the orders given to you by Jesus?
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Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #385 on: December 08, 2013, 08:13:00 PM »

What's amusing about it?

I don't do everthying I can do right now to alleviate suffering because I care more for my own comfort and well-being than I do for those suffering. And because I am lazy. I know that to be true...about myself.

Would those traits disappear if I had unlimited power? And if they didn't, would they still prevent me from eliminating suffering? I do not know.

And you call yourself a follower of Jesus? Your inaction is quite like this alleged 'God' thing you supposedly worship. Yet, don't you think you have a moral obligation (via the commands of your 'Lord') to be helping others in need? Have you ever helped anyone in a dire circumstance? If so, why did you help them?

The worse part of this, actually, is that you've admitted that you don't know if you would end world hunger (for example) if you had unlimited resources. Are you actually serious with this claim? If you had literally unlimited resources from which to help starving children, such that it would be of no cost to yourself, you still cannot say that you would help them (even with a moral obligation to do so)?? WOW. So much spin to protect your theology.

Unsurprisingly, it sounds like you are an indifferent vile monster just like your 'God' thing is.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Antidote

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #386 on: December 08, 2013, 08:55:53 PM »
You think an omnipotent God exists who has the power to end all world starvation immediately, right now, this very second and yet somehow it's our job? What a cop-out. There clearly is no all-loving all-powerful deity. Your God is imaginary fiction (yes, like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy for children).

Let me illustrate how silly that sounds:

You think billionaire Bill Gates exists who has the power to end all work for his children and make life a party 24/7 for them, and yet somehow they have to earn their own money? What a cop-out. There clearly is no billionaire Bill Gates. Your Gates is imaginary fiction.

I don't see Bill Gates letting his children starve in Africa, or not receiving medical help, if they have a terminal disease. Your analogy can only stretch so far, because we know Bill Gates exists, because I have seen him on TV.

Despite what you think, Bill Gates is a loving parent, and would suddenly have second thoughts about his principle, if any of his children suffered because of it.

I've met him personally, I actually bumped into him (literally) at the fish market in Seattle, really nice guy.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #387 on: December 08, 2013, 09:09:37 PM »
MM is God limitless or not? If you were limitless you would end all world suffering,war,starvation in a heartbeat? It if the believer who limits the power of God IMO.

At the momemt, I am uninterested in whether God is limitless. I wanted only to pursue Median's assertion that HE would end starvation if he was limitless. So far, no sign of any argument from Median to back that assertion up or explain why he holds that assertion.

"I've noticed difficult and uncomfortable questions often are." Huh Hypocrite?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #388 on: December 08, 2013, 09:13:53 PM »

I've met him personally, I actually bumped into him (literally) at the fish market in Seattle, really nice guy.

What's interesting though is that MM wants us to compare Bill Gates to his 'God', and believe that b/c Bill Gates could do more (in a strictly logical sense) that he would not do more if he had unlimited resources (So God is a lazy dick like him then?). Of course, this claim is nonsense. Whether or not Bill Gates could do more right now has no bearing on what we would do if he was unlimited. In fact, the evidence goes the other way. There is good reason for thinking that those who currently do a lot to help the starving and needy would do even more if they had vastly greater resources, and especially unlimited ones.

What MM is admitting is that he does not love his neighbor as himself (unlike this alleged God). For those of us who do care about our neighbor's well being, we are actually better than this invisible sky-daddy who does nothing but watch with indifference.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 09:15:34 PM by median »
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Offline Antidote

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #389 on: December 08, 2013, 09:15:30 PM »
MM is God limitless or not? If you were limitless you would end all world suffering,war,starvation in a heartbeat? It if the believer who limits the power of God IMO.

At the momemt, I am uninterested in whether God is limitless. I wanted only to pursue Median's assertion that HE would end starvation if he was limitless. So far, no sign of any argument from Median to back that assertion up or explain why he holds that assertion.

MM, since it was a hypothetical, he's not exactly required to provide an argument, since he knows he can't do it. However It's easy to extrapolate and understand that he would do it because it's the right thing to do.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #390 on: December 08, 2013, 09:22:38 PM »

I've met him personally, I actually bumped into him (literally) at the fish market in Seattle, really nice guy.

What's interesting though is that MM wants us to compare Bill Gates to his 'God', and believe that b/c Bill Gates could do more (in a strictly logical sense) that he would not do more if he had unlimited resources (So God is a lazy dick like him then?). Of course, this claim is nonsense. Whether or not Bill Gates could do more right now has no bearing on what we would do if he was unlimited. In fact, the evidence goes the other way. There is good reason for thinking that those who currently do a lot to help the starving and needy would do even more if they had vastly greater resources, and especially unlimited ones.

What MM is admitting is that he does not love his neighbor as himself (unlike this alleged God). For those of us who do care about our neighbor's well being, we are actually better than this invisible sky-daddy who does nothing but watch with indifference.

Yes to solve every problem would be less effort than Bill Gates to give a penny, yet it still does not happen.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #391 on: December 09, 2013, 01:57:36 AM »
So are you saying that you are prevented from doing more now because you don't wish to make the effort?

Incorrect, i am prevented from helping the world because i...

A:Lack the resources.
B:Currently do not know how to help the world.
C:Am too busy with my own life.

If i were omni-everything, like your "God", i would easily hand wave all of that away in ten seconds flat, and BAM, the world is now in peace, no one has to suffer, etc.

That was not the very specific question I asked Angus (or Alexis, I don't know who's on duty today).

Alexis does not type here. I do however (Angus, that is).
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #392 on: December 09, 2013, 03:12:49 AM »
My point is that noone of us contribute what we can for the hungry. We could all do more, often a lot more. I make this point only in response to the assertion by Median that he would eliminate starvation if he was limitless. I want to know why this is necessarily true, based on what we know about ourselves......I am interested to have you identify what that something is, and discuss why that something would cease to be a factor if you had unlimited capacity.

I quite agree - I could do more for the starving.  If I sold up absolutely everything I owned today, house and car and possessions and all, I could give hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And, crucially, I would then have nothing.  Yahweh would not have that problem.  He could give everyone everything they ever needed and wanted, and still have everything.  He can give away a dollar, and still have his dollar - and a billion dollars more.

MM's question - is effectively how he can trust that a person who could give £10 (but only give £1), would give £1000 dollars when they had $infinity.  The problem is that as has been said, he does not appear to understand the concept of a limitless god (or a limitless amount of resources).

Why don't I give any more than I do?  Ultimately, I guess, its fear.  I look at the world, at the banks, at the way we are burning through our resources, and then I look at my wife and my children.  And ultimately, I think to myself "I could give away more - but what might happen tomorrow?  What might happen to them if I give away a little too much?"

But if I was GOD, I wouldn't have any of those problems.  With limitless resource, I could feed every person in every country every day, and STILL be guaranteed to have everything I could ever want or need forever.  GUARANTEED.  That is the point.

MM has asked us all "how can he believe that we would give so much, when we had limitless resource?"  I would like to ask MM a similar question.

MM, you give away some now, but agree you could do more.  If YOUR resources were limitless, what would stop YOU from feeding all the starving, all the time?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #393 on: December 09, 2013, 03:15:05 AM »
Please tell me what lesson anyone would learn if God kept feeding the Africans. "Hey we can keep stealing the diamonds and God is gonna keep feeding them! Wow! This God really spoils us! No discipline whatsoever! Such a pushover!"

Really?

You honestly think that if god appeared, feeding the starving, and looking directly and sadly at the guys with the bulldozers, that they would keep doing it?  You don't think that the regular and obvious appearance of your god in the world would dramatically change the behaviour of billions of people?

He doesn't sound like much of a god to me, if his direct appearance in the world would have so little impact.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #394 on: December 09, 2013, 04:04:39 AM »
Right now, like me (and most everybody on the forum), you have the opportunity and means to do a lot, lot more to alleviate hunger (and other suffering) than you actually do. Why don't you take every opportunityand use all available means? And how would this change if you were limitless?

Without getting too detailed, because I don't think the question has enough thought in it, to warrant a serious answer:

Most of the reason that individuals horde wealth, is to do with uncertainty of financial and health future. All my relatives and people I know, seem to be getting dementia, PD, strokes, cancer. I have some quite rich in-laws, but their son is a dribbler, and needs total care. One of the mothers just had her memory wiped by a stroke; the other one also had a partial stroke. That's BEFORE I even consider my own health outlook, which I'm not terribly optimistic about.

If you ever want to get an idea of whether your wealth is your house, or your health, then ask yourself what you would be willing to pay, to get a free pass from cancer, PD, heart disease, arthritis, and know you would live until, say, 110. What would you be willing to pay for that? Perhaps you are too young to really know.

God doesn't have to worry about his parents or children, or getting PD.

 
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #395 on: December 09, 2013, 04:26:19 AM »
Firstly, thank you for actually giving a direct answer to my question. For focusing more on actually answering my question than twisting yourself in knots trying to second guess my intentions. Often, a question is just a question. Crazy but true.



I quite agree - I could do more for the starving.  If I sold up absolutely everything I owned today, house and car and possessions and all, I could give hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This is true. But isn't it also true that you could do a lot more good with very little extra sacrifice? I don't claim to know this, it's a genuine question. But I do get the impression you and I are on pretty similar paths...good job, few kids, 40ish, first world country[1]...and I know full well that I could do a lot more than I currently do, with pretty minimal sacrifice.


He could give everyone everything they ever needed and wanted, and still have everything.  He can give away a dollar, and still have his dollar - and a billion dollars more.

I think that is a big assumption, based on incomplete knowledge. But I really never intended this particular discussion to be about God. I've talked about God in some of my other posts on the forum.



MM's question - is effectively how he can trust that a person who could give £10 (but only give £1), would give £1000 dollars when they had $infinity.

It's not so much a matter of 'can I trust it' as 'Are you sure'?


The problem is that as has been said, he does not appear to understand the concept of a limitless god (or a limitless amount of resources).

I understand that concept, although I did ask Median to clarify what he meant when he used the term, in order to better aid discussion, because I think it may not mean the exact same thing to everybody, as I will explain in just a moment


Why don't I give any more than I do?  Ultimately, I guess, its fear.  I look at the world, at the banks, at the way we are burning through our resources, and then I look at my wife and my children.  And ultimately, I think to myself "I could give away more - but what might happen tomorrow?  What might happen to them if I give away a little too much?"

Thankyou again for a direct answer, and I have 100% confidence in your sincerity.

I assume, then, that your position is that if this fear could be removed there would be nothing further to stop you from helping the whole world? If you had unlimited ability to give and give and give but still keep all your own money, you would be able to eliminate everyone's hunger problems.

A starving child in Africa might look at your bank balance, and look at your monthly expenditure on things such as recreational activities, deserts, etc etc and think "why is this person not helping me? I can see the comfort he lives in, can't he buy me another few months of rice? I can't think of any reason other than pure sadism"

Would he be justified in thinking that? Would he think differently if he was made aware of what was stopping you from doing more? Would he understand?

My question is: when we don't have all the facts, can we say for sure what we would do if we had unlimited ability to do it? That's the crux of my question. 


 1. we do, however, have a better cricket team in Australia
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #396 on: December 09, 2013, 04:33:54 AM »


MM, you give away some now, but agree you could do more.  If YOUR resources were limitless, what would stop YOU from feeding all the starving, all the time?

I don't know, because I can't assume that just because my resources were unlimited, some other circumstance might not exist to prevent me from doing that.

Certainly, I would love to eliminate all physical suffering. But I have to look at my reality NOW, where I have sufficient resources to do more than I do but fail to do it, and think about the question more than a few minuted on a forum allows.
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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #397 on: December 09, 2013, 04:45:58 AM »
MM, you give away some now, but agree you could do more.  If YOUR resources were limitless, what would stop YOU from feeding all the starving, all the time?

I don't know, because I can't assume that just because my resources were unlimited, some other circumstance might not exist to prevent me from doing that.

Certainly, I would love to eliminate all physical suffering. But I have to look at my reality NOW, where I have sufficient resources to do more than I do but fail to do it, and think about the question more than a few minuted on a forum allows.

You don't need unlimited resources to fix Africa. The main problems are malaria, HIV, drought, and various tropical diseases. You could, however, get it in much better state, by making the nastiest dictators in it, trip, while walking down some stairs.

In order to explain why God doesn't just tweak a few nasties out of the way, using minimal action, you have to invoke Satan, and some kind of struggle.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #398 on: December 09, 2013, 07:02:43 AM »
I could do more for the starving.  If I sold up absolutely everything I owned today, house and car and possessions and all, I could give hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This is true. But isn't it also true that you could do a lot more good with very little extra sacrifice?

Yup.  And there's the rub.  That bit in bold.  For any of us to give another more, we must end up with less.  My impression of any god worthy of the name of "god" is that that does not apply - a being with the ability to create from nothing does not have that dilemma.  And a being that does NOT have the ability to create from nothing is not one I would call a "god" - for me at least, ability to create is one of the primary attributes of godship.

Why don't I give any more than I do?  Ultimately, I guess, its fear.  I look at the world, at the banks, at the way we are burning through our resources, and then I look at my wife and my children.  And ultimately, I think to myself "I could give away more - but what might happen tomorrow?  What might happen to them if I give away a little too much?"

Thank you again for a direct answer, and I have 100% confidence in your sincerity.
…..
A starving child in Africa might look at your bank balance, and look at your monthly expenditure on things such as recreational activities, deserts, etc etc and think "why is this person not helping me? I can see the comfort he lives in, can't he buy me another few months of rice? I can't think of any reason other than pure sadism"

Would he be justified in thinking that? Would he think differently if he was made aware of what was stopping you from doing more? Would he understand?

Almost certainly, the child in Africa who saw me saving for my old age might struggle to understand why his real lack of food today is less important that my possible lack of food in twenty years.  And he would certainly not get why I feel able to drop $60 on the latest game on Kickstarter - I wouldn't blame him for slapping me in the face if he was standing by me when I did it.  My reasons of "well, I worked hard for my money, I give you some, be satisfied" probably wouldn't satisfy him.

But then again, I have never heard a satisfying answer as to why a being that allegedly loves every one of us so much, and (as I note above) apparently can create matter, is not doing ANYTHING.

I assume, then, that your position is that if this fear could be removed there would be nothing further to stop you from helping the whole world? If you had unlimited ability to give and give and give but still keep all your own money, you would be able to eliminate everyone's hunger problems.

My question is: when we don't have all the facts, can we say for sure what we would do if we had unlimited ability to do it? That's the crux of my question.

What does god fear, that prevents him from doing more?  I think that is the key question here: everyone has reasons for why they do what they do, whether what they do is a lot or a little.  Some reasons stack up better than others. 

But I know that I give some.  You do too.  Median gives more.  What has god given, that he no longer has?  What has he given this year?  In the last few decades?  This to me is the crux of the problem.  This year I gave about 1% of my income to a project in Uganda, about 0.1% of everything I had. 

How do god's figures stack up this year?  If they don't compare well to mine - to a fallible, fearful, mortal atheist sinner - if they don't make my figures look like an ant next to a Blue Whale by comparison….then what possible reason could there be for that?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #399 on: December 09, 2013, 07:17:58 AM »
What I never understood is all the rationalizing to protect a god that does nothing. Why make excuses? Just say, "He doesnt do shit because he doesnt want to do shit." and wash your hands of it. When excuses are made for his inaction you are admitting that his actions are inadequate. When you try to shift responsibility onto humans you are admitting that his actions are inadequate.

But when you are thinking and making excuses as to why god does nothing, I hope in your mind you think about whether a non-existent god would also do nothing. And you ponder what the difference is between a non-existent god and a god that does nothing. You'll likely come up with the right conclusion.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #400 on: December 09, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
I don't know, because I can't assume that just because my resources were unlimited, some other circumstance might not exist to prevent me from doing that.
Would non-existence qualify as a limiting factor preventing you from doing that?  Would actually not having unlimited resources be a limiting factor?  Would actually not knowing a problem existed qualify as a limiting factor?  Would actually not wanting to utilize said resources be a limiting factor?

Omnipotence.
Omniscience.
Omni-benevolence.
Exists.

At least one of these does not belong.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #401 on: December 09, 2013, 11:15:37 AM »
If any one of us here were omni-everything then would we not have already solved the worlds problems?
I would assume it takes more effort for a human to give £1 to charity than it would an omni-everything god to solve all the worlds problems.
It cannot be the same comparing what a human can or cannot do to what a god can or cannot do.
A lot of humans do try to make the world a better place, I have yet to see any evidence of gods help.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Truth OT

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #402 on: December 09, 2013, 12:51:22 PM »
Do you think starving people in Africa are just not fit enough to survive? The United States does waste a lot of food.

Interestingly, those individuals who manage to stay alive in adverse situations, such as famine, may have survived because of one or more physical traits.  For example, someone who sweats less may be the one who lives when water is in short supply.

I wish that it was as easy as {reduce waste -> redistribute surplus food -> save lives}.  There are other things at play here, such as regional politics.  A lot of food is shipped to needy areas but a lot of it doesn't make it through to the intended recipients.  This is particularly so when there's armed conflict in the area, as a lot of the donated supplies get hijacked and redirected to local warlords and their supporters.  In such situations, it may well be aggression that selects for fitness --  At least, until superior firepower arrives to deal with the problem and protect the less aggressive.

I agree that is the problem! Corrupt people doing nothing but corrupting and taking the food away.

This is why i find it comical when people blame God and yell "Let God fix it!!!!" when it's up to us and our free will.

If a bunch of dicks are taking the food, God shakes his head with the rest of us.

You do realize that this response is basically saying things happen as if your god doesn't exist since he is as inactive in affecting chance as that flying spagetti monster you referenced previously?

This comment about the extent of human free will also goes against what the Christian holy book reveals about the god you claim to believe in. In the Bible God intervenes time after time to enforce his will upon man. He didn't want man to build a tower to the heavens, so Babel occurred (with that in mind, maybe it was YHWH and nor Allah that was responsible to the trade center coming down since he is so anti tower). He wanted Israel to be a great nation so he saved Jacob's family from famine via miraculous means and once he decided to act, he freed them from slavery in Eygpt via miraculous means. He got mad and initiated a worldwide genocidal flood to wipe out those that brought him displeasure. He turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for looking in the wrong direction. He, thru Elijah illustrated to the prophets of Baal that he was in fact real in a test of might. Oh, yeah, he also impregnated an engaged virgin in order to directly intervene in the affairs of men.

All that to say, you are WRONG about your God yet again! In the Biblical storybook he does not stand by just like the rest of us shaking his head. He sends fire and brimstone, plagues and diseases, angels and his human avatar into man's affair to insure that his will is done. In real life, we don't see this active God and the most logical conclusion we should come to is that this god you believe in is no more ral than Posidon, Zeus, Baal, Mitraz, etc.

I'll give him credit for this; He really crossed over well from ancient stories into the hearts and minds of generations over the millennia. That doesn't make him real though.

Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #403 on: December 09, 2013, 06:19:22 PM »

A starving child in Africa might look at your bank balance, and look at your monthly expenditure on things such as recreational activities, deserts, etc etc and think "why is this person not helping me? I can see the comfort he lives in, can't he buy me another few months of rice? I can't think of any reason other than pure sadism"

Would he be justified in thinking that? Would he think differently if he was made aware of what was stopping you from doing more? Would he understand?

My question is: when we don't have all the facts, can we say for sure what we would do if we had unlimited ability to do it? That's the crux of my question.

This statement/question is another red-herring. Absolute certainty (aka - "having all the facts") is completely aside from the point (sufficient evidence is enough). It is also aside from the point as to whether or not a person "gives more" right now, b/c those limitations would be removed with a limitless "all-loving" ability (like this alleged God has). Further, there is plenty of evidence to support what I have stated. Those who currently do lots to help the needy have been given more (via donation, etc) and they have done more! My own mother works for the second largest marketing firm in the country and the focus of her business is charity and charitable organizations. They raise funds for needy people all over the world (in the millions of dollars) and as more money comes in - guess what - they give more and help more!!!! This is in stark contrast to the God you allegedly worship who doesn't do anything but observe the starvation, rape, murder, and incest with idle hands.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 06:33:17 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #404 on: December 09, 2013, 06:30:49 PM »
If any one of us here were omni-everything then would we not have already solved the worlds problems?
I would assume it takes more effort for a human to give £1 to charity than it would an omni-everything god to solve all the worlds problems.
It cannot be the same comparing what a human can or cannot do to what a god can or cannot do.
A lot of humans do try to make the world a better place, I have yet to see any evidence of gods help.

I am an extremely giving person when it comes to those in dire need, and I have been as such since even before I was a Christian - continuing during, and after. I've sponsored children in Africa, given clothes and living supplies to needy families across the globe, bought many of my students musical instruments when their parents couldn't afford them (in the thousands of dollars), and a ton more. The demonstrable evidence that I show displays more than this alleged invisible deity 'God' thing (which is a big whopping ZERO), and it's astonishing that religious people can't see this. They are so blinded by theology and ideology that nothing can turn them from it's grip, even with it's vile consequences taken to logical conclusion.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 06:36:36 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline MadBunny

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #405 on: December 09, 2013, 07:23:23 PM »
If any one of us here were omni-everything then would we not have already solved the worlds problems?
I would assume it takes more effort for a human to give £1 to charity than it would an omni-everything god to solve all the worlds problems.
It cannot be the same comparing what a human can or cannot do to what a god can or cannot do.
A lot of humans do try to make the world a better place, I have yet to see any evidence of gods help.
(bold mine)

Of course not, unless of course we're not talking about a god but instead a super empowered human. 
Then it all kind of fits into place.

While personally I think that we underestimate the power that we have at our fingertips, we also understand inherently that it isn't infinite.  Infinity is not, I think a concept that our minds can grasp fully.  At best we can simply use metaphors to communicate it[1], the idea of 'omni-anything' actually is just as bad or worse.

However when we limit the limitless to our own imaginations, indeed to our own selves as in the case of cafeteria christians, and I'm sure SPAGers of all religions, then the way gods act makes sense because it's what 'we' would do in it's stead, or what we imagine it would do.  When looked at from the outside, either through the lens of other religion, or simple rationality then said actions make little sense at all. 
 1. eg: if you have an infinite number of monkeys banging on an infinite number of typewriters then they will instantly produce every work of literature ever produced (perfectly) as well as every piece of literature that WILL ever be produced (also perfectly).
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.