Author Topic: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)  (Read 9934 times)

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Offline MadBunny

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #174 on: December 01, 2013, 04:25:51 PM »
NO, p-zombie is indistinguishable from FICTION. I deny the claim that such a "zombie" is even possible (as per Loar 1990, among others) and the burden of proof would be on you to demonstrate such a claim.

Down this road lies Solipsism, and the ever popular 'brain in a box' thought experiment.  I'm kind of surprised he hasn't brought up a variant of 'Mary's room' yet.[1]Of all the possible philosophical exercises one can make, Solipsism is one of the most useless.  Sure, it's both irrefutable, and indefensible at the same time, making it an 'interesting' thought experiment, but it's also utterly and astonishingly useless.

The idea that one could base their life around this philosophy makes as much sense as assuming you're in the matrix.[2]
 1. The idea that if you have a perfect description of something, say, a 'color' you can never know what that color actually is unless you experience that color yourself, only an approximation.  As such things go, it's not a bad argument to make from a religious perspective, provided of course it isn't being made to someone who'd deconverted.

 2.  There is a famous documentary by the Wachawski brothers using the concept of 'brain in a box.  A series of movies called 'the matrix' matrix reloaded' 'animatrix' and another one so bad it isn't worth mentioning.  Some people have floated the idea that the entire series would have to take place inside of ANOTHER brain box, handily explaining how the main character could have super powers outside of the original box.  Sort of a meta solipsistic thought experiment, but with lots of kung fu. 
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #175 on: December 01, 2013, 06:37:38 PM »
Down this road lies Solipsism, and the ever popular 'brain in a box' thought experiment.  I'm kind of surprised he hasn't brought up a variant of 'Mary's room' yet.[1]Of all the possible philosophical exercises one can make, Solipsism is one of the most useless.  Sure, it's both irrefutable, and indefensible at the same time, making it an 'interesting' thought experiment, but it's also utterly and astonishingly useless.

The idea that one could base their life around this philosophy makes as much sense as assuming you're in the matrix.[2]
 1. The idea that if you have a perfect description of something, say, a 'color' you can never know what that color actually is unless you experience that color yourself, only an approximation.  As such things go, it's not a bad argument to make from a religious perspective, provided of course it isn't being made to someone who'd deconverted.

 2.  There is a famous documentary by the Wachawski brothers using the concept of 'brain in a box.  A series of movies called 'the matrix' matrix reloaded' 'animatrix' and another one so bad it isn't worth mentioning.  Some people have floated the idea that the entire series would have to take place inside of ANOTHER brain box, handily explaining how the main character could have super powers outside of the original box.  Sort of a meta solipsistic thought experiment, but with lots of kung fu. 

What Skep is trying to do though is, first claim solipsism must be true, then claim that he gets to get out of it b/c he merely claims some 'god' exists. But this line of reasoning is completely ad hoc (arbitrary) and unjustified (a mere assertion). If solipsism is true (which I hold Kant and others refuted) then it is true for him as well - at which case it doesn't matter and is of no consequence to us. Skep wants us to think that we have faith just like he has faith except that our faith is in the external world and his is in his "God". NOPE! Nothing could be further from the truth. Even if we granted for the sake of argument that solipsism were true this wouldn't say anything whatsoever about an alleged "God" thing existing, nor would it mean that we have "faith" like he does (b/c our position is tentative/easily changed with the evidence and his is not). In other words (under this scenario), we have a working hypothesis. He has a fixed belief that he defends no matter what. He has absolutely nothing even remotely close to a sound argument for a 'God' but we do have sound arguments for thinking there is an external world. Even further, the idea that there is an external world outside of our minds is not controversial. But his 'God' claim is. So there is really no comparison. 




http://www.iep.utm.edu/solipsis/#H7
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 06:47:50 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #176 on: December 01, 2013, 08:16:22 PM »
This Skep fellow, who I don't find to be worth talking to, is a strange one. On one hand, he insists that we atheists have faith in atheism the way he has faith in god, and he knows that for a fact. On the other hand, he says it is impossible to know if other humans can even feel pain.

So either it is possible to know what is going on in another person, or it is not. What kind of an idiot would hold two such diametrically opposed views?

That was a rhetorical question. I of course know exactly what kind of idiot would do that.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #177 on: December 01, 2013, 08:19:38 PM »
This Skep fellow, who I don't find to be worth talking to,

I placed him on my ignore list. Right when he makes you think you're getting through to him, he reverts right back to his usual commenting. Repetition can be good but not to the extent he does it.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #178 on: December 01, 2013, 09:02:07 PM »
Can you explain why what you have just said is any different from "I can't understand it, therefore God-did-it?

OK, you have the floor.

At one point there was no universe. Then at another point there was a universe. What caused the universe? If you believe in Big Bang, it says time, space, and matter began at the Big Bang. So, what caused it?
I don't know. You however, and without the slightest shred of evidence or thought say, "God-did-it. Therefore there is a god."

Your move...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online OldChurchGuy

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #179 on: December 01, 2013, 11:25:42 PM »
Skeptic,

I wish to withdraw my questions from this post.  Nothing personal, but I think you have your hands full as it is.

I am very glad God has helped you experience a turn around in your life so you are much better person now than before.  And I can see where you want to share this good news of your experience with God to others. 

I would suggest you follow an old axiom of communication:  know your audience.

This audience is wanting proof of God's existence.  YOU know God exists and I am convinced God exists but there is no way to prove that conclusion.  Put another way, there is no ritual, prayer, incantation, etc. which will consistently yield an entity which can be seen and measured that can be understood to be God. 

Unless and until you can come up with proof which meets that criteria, your well intentioned words will have little, if any, impact with the members of this web site.  As you have seen, this is a group that know their Bible very well. 

Before you write this off as some secular advice, consider the words of Paul:  (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)   "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

To me, Paul made it a point to know his audience.  When you or someone else can come up with the proof this website demands, then you will have credibility. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline median

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #180 on: December 02, 2013, 01:02:12 AM »
But "the word will never return void" though, right? 1 Peter 3:15 is an operating principle for most apologists and in Acts they supposedly preached on the streets (without care for the 'audience' - b/c that audience is really anybody). Jude 1 also speaks to this. The doctrine of eternal hell-fire causes this tradition of "preach the gospel to all men". If he thinks we're going to hell, isn't it his obligation to try to bring us "into the fold"? Personally, I'm happy when apologists research, study, debate, and try to "defend the faith" b/c I think that's the fastest ticket to becoming an ex-believer! As long as he is willing to debate here, I'll be open to responding.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #181 on: December 02, 2013, 01:37:54 AM »
Skeptic,

I wish to withdraw my questions from this post.  Nothing personal, but I think you have your hands full as it is.

I am very glad God has helped you experience a turn around in your life so you are much better person now than before.  And I can see where you want to share this good news of your experience with God to others. 

I would suggest you follow an old axiom of communication:  know your audience.

This audience is wanting proof of God's existence.  YOU know God exists and I am convinced God exists but there is no way to prove that conclusion.  Put another way, there is no ritual, prayer, incantation, etc. which will consistently yield an entity which can be seen and measured that can be understood to be God. 

Unless and until you can come up with proof which meets that criteria, your well intentioned words will have little, if any, impact with the members of this web site.  As you have seen, this is a group that know their Bible very well. 

Before you write this off as some secular advice, consider the words of Paul:  (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)   "19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

To me, Paul made it a point to know his audience.  When you or someone else can come up with the proof this website demands, then you will have credibility. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I will take that into consideration. Thanks for the thoughtful words OCG.

I have a question for you now.

Do you think it's reasonable for atheists to demand a certain type of evidence?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #182 on: December 02, 2013, 01:42:32 AM »
But "the word will never return void" though, right? 1 Peter 3:15 is an operating principle for most apologists and in Acts they supposedly preached on the streets (without care for the 'audience' - b/c that audience is really anybody). Jude 1 also speaks to this. The doctrine of eternal hell-fire causes this tradition of "preach the gospel to all men". If he thinks we're going to hell, isn't it his obligation to try to bring us "into the fold"? Personally, I'm happy when apologists research, study, debate, and try to "defend the faith" b/c I think that's the fastest ticket to becoming an ex-believer! As long as he is willing to debate here, I'll be open to responding.

I certainly view it as trying to save the person.

A helpful analogy is a fireman holding the net out and telling someone to jump but they refuse to jump and they die in the blazing inferno.

Would you say the fireman is an annoying prick?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #183 on: December 02, 2013, 01:45:09 AM »
Would you say the fireman is an annoying prick?

Normally not, but if he was you he would be.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #184 on: December 02, 2013, 01:47:44 AM »
Would you say the fireman is an annoying prick?

Normally not, but if he was you he would be.

That's the point! Atheists shouldn't get upset when we try to save them. If they see it from our point of view, we see a drowning man.

Wouldn't you be horrified if you knew some people would be lost forever? Wouldn't you view it as love?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #185 on: December 02, 2013, 01:52:57 AM »
The drowning man who wishes to drown should be allowed to if that's what he wants. Christians and other religious people don't care what anyone wants, only what they want.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #186 on: December 02, 2013, 01:53:58 AM »
The drowning man who wishes to drown should be allowed to if that's what he wants. Christians and other religious people don't care what anyone wants, only what they want.

-Nam

Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #187 on: December 02, 2013, 01:55:02 AM »
That's the point! Atheists shouldn't get upset when we try to save them. If they see it from our point of view, we see a drowning man.

Wouldn't you be horrified if you knew some people would be lost forever? Wouldn't you view it as love?

As OCG says: know your audience. There is no way to convince this audience that historical events in Genesis actually happened, because they didn't. Therefore, Genesis is a load of crap, which means Jesus, a God, endorsed crap. There is no way to work around this problem. You believe in the Genesis crap, so we are totally skeptical that your rationale of the Bible is correct. It differs from OCG, who probably does not believe in Genesis, or maybe even the resurrection. As such, his version of God is different to yours, and saves people a different way. You cannot save people, unless you know what God wants, and you cannot use the Bible to deduce that, only what God has told you directly, and is distinct from your imagination during prayer.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #188 on: December 02, 2013, 01:56:53 AM »
The drowning man who wishes to drown should be allowed to if that's what he wants. Christians and other religious people don't care what anyone wants, only what they want.

-Nam

Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.

If hell actually exists then yes, I want to go to hell. We had a discussion on this very topic over a year ago; if your god actually exists almost every single atheist here that took part in that discussion said they'd bow down to it. I wasn't one of them. Go bother them.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #189 on: December 02, 2013, 02:02:04 AM »
if your god actually exists

Note to skep: it was semantically a debate about whether your God actually exists. The God of the Bible is such an entity described, would not deserve anyone's respect. There are other plausible gods who might be worth bowing down to.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #190 on: December 02, 2013, 02:02:32 AM »
The drowning man who wishes to drown should be allowed to if that's what he wants. Christians and other religious people don't care what anyone wants, only what they want.

-Nam

Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.

If hell actually exists then yes, I want to go to hell. We had a discussion on this very topic over a year ago; if your god actually exists almost every single atheist here that took part in that discussion said they'd bow down to it. I wasn't one of them. Go bother them.

-Nam

I am sorry Nam but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.

Imagine burning your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine that feeling forever with no end. That's not pretty and downright horrific.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #191 on: December 02, 2013, 02:03:44 AM »
Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.

Well lets look at it.

There is fire apparently, but we are dead, so no pain will be there.
It will be warm, i like being warm.
It is run by a very good businessman, who is probably open to suggestions.
Said businessman is also near omnipotent, so you can probably slip some requests and such there.

So why not go to hell? It should be called paradise.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #192 on: December 02, 2013, 02:05:23 AM »
Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.

Well lets look at it.

There is fire apparently, but we are dead, so no pain will be there.
It will be warm, i like being warm.
It is run by a very good businessman, who is probably open to suggestions.
Said businessman is also near omnipotent, so you can probably slip some requests and such there.

So why not go to hell? It should be called paradise.

This kind of stuff fuels the stereotype that atheists are in league with satan.  :o
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #193 on: December 02, 2013, 02:07:59 AM »
I mean, who WOULDN'T want to do menial tasks like persuade people to burn, and in return get anything they desire?

Unlike that god guy, who wants you to worship him!

Bah.

Disclaimer: satan and god do not exist, so my posts about said works of fiction are satirical.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #194 on: December 02, 2013, 02:10:52 AM »
I mean, who WOULDN'T want to do menial tasks like persuade people to burn, and in return get anything they desire?

Unlike that god guy, who wants you to worship him!

Bah.

Disclaimer: satan and god do not exist, so my posts about said works of fiction are satirical.

 I am in shock.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #195 on: December 02, 2013, 02:14:38 AM »
I mean, how pathetic is god?

He sits on his ass all day saying "praise me bitches, while i sit here and shit"

While good ole' satan is going around making atheists, making pokemon raps and stuff.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #196 on: December 02, 2013, 02:46:35 AM »
The drowning man who wishes to drown should be allowed to if that's what he wants. Christians and other religious people don't care what anyone wants, only what they want.

-Nam

Are you saying you want to go to Hell? I never ever had someone say that to me. If someone truly said to me, "I want to go to Hell" I would leave them alone.

If hell actually exists then yes, I want to go to hell. We had a discussion on this very topic over a year ago; if your god actually exists almost every single atheist here that took part in that discussion said they'd bow down to it. I wasn't one of them. Go bother them.

-Nam

I am sorry Nam but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.

Imagine burning your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine that feeling forever with no end. That's not pretty and downright horrific.

And how is worshipping for all eternity an idiot like your imaginary god any less of a hell? It may be peaches and cream to you but to people like me: that's worse.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #197 on: December 02, 2013, 02:52:38 AM »
Note: the Bible does not say "eternity". The Vulgate translation did that one, and Revelation says second death.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #198 on: December 02, 2013, 02:54:38 AM »
I am in shock.

Don't be too in shock. He's 16, and winding you up.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #199 on: December 02, 2013, 03:04:38 AM »
I am in shock.

Don't be too in shock. He's 16, and winding you up.

Who's 16?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #200 on: December 02, 2013, 03:05:39 AM »
Would you say the fireman is an annoying prick?

Normally not, but if he was you he would be.

That's the point! Atheists shouldn't get upset when we try to save them. If they see it from our point of view, we see a drowning man.

Wouldn't you be horrified if you knew some people would be lost forever? Wouldn't you view it as love?

No, it's not even a nice thing to do, never mind loving. Thing is, you're not "saving" us from drowning, you're throwing us a concrete lifebelt. You're telling us to worship the thing that threw us overboard in the first place. No, leave me to Neptune. He seems a much more pleasant kinda fellow.

What you proselytisers never seem to understand is that you tell us that we're drowning, yet provide no evidence of us being in any water. The evidence is as dry as a bone. I'm not even stood in a puddle, but you're telling me I'm up to my neck in it. When you actually bother to get off your arse and provide some evidence, then you can tell me I'm drowning, but still don't expect me to look to your God as a saviour, when it was he who made me walk the plank as soon as I fell out my mother.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #201 on: December 02, 2013, 03:06:02 AM »
Maybe his Tulpa is only 16. Maybe it's only his Tulpa that we hear from.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: The Religious "Ask Skeptic" Thread (With Apology To The Atheists)
« Reply #202 on: December 02, 2013, 03:16:46 AM »
Imagine burning your hand on a hot stove. Now imagine that feeling forever with no end. That's not pretty and downright horrific.

Imagine a scumbag who goes around scaring children with stories about burning in a fire, so they spend half their life waking up from nightmares.

Imagine a retard who puts his fingers in his ears, when you point out that the sun wasn't created on the 4th day, and that there is no way for animals to get to Australia, such that they would all be marsupials.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.