Author Topic: Does the second commandment still apply or not?  (Read 1815 times)

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Offline Aaron123

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Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« on: November 24, 2013, 11:28:23 AM »
Exodus 20: 4-6
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Sounds simple.  Make no likeness of anything from heaven, underground, or the sea.  Especially important; do NOT worship them, or god will get jealous. (I'm not sure how the omnimax creator of the universe can get jealous of a stone statue, but anyway...)

Yet... people make statues of Jesus and angels all the time.  They're out in public for everyone to see, they're in churches for everyone to bow down to.  I don't even need to provide a picture.  Just google "Jesus statue" or "angel statue", and you'll get lots of results.

But... doesn't the second commandment explicitly forbids them to make those sorts of things?  There's no qualifiers in the commandments.  So there's no reason to think Jesus and angels are exempt from the rule.

If the second commandment still applies, then why blatantly violate it?  If it doesn't apply anymore, then why push to get the ten commandments in the courthouses?  Just call it "The Nine Commandments" then.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 11:58:46 AM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 01:02:06 PM »
Muslims take this much more seriously than Christians. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 01:47:41 PM »
And the pope is carting around bones today. lol
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2013, 01:53:59 PM »
To get a senses of what is being said, Young's Literal Translation of the Bible is useful. Also, it shoud be borne in mind that verses are a recent introduction and that punctuation was unknown in Hebrew. What we then have is:

Exodus 20:4 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth. Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me, 6 and doing kindness to thousands, of those loving Me and keeping My commands.

and removing the punctuation and pointless phrases, we end up with:

20 4-6 `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image or any likeness bow not thyself to them nor serve them.

Note that the prohibition was on making them for your own use. - It may be assumed that someone else could make them for general use. Pre-Yahweh, Middle-Eastern religions depicted their gods as creatures/ humans/etc. Yahweh himself, thus made himself non-reproducible. He was the image in your mind and nowhere else.

There was a Roman (and I think a Greek) idea that to create something perfectly was blasphemy as only the gods could do that. To create an image of a god was therefore to create an imperfect image, which was insulting[1] There was a secondary belief amongst many primitive tribes that "the word or the image is the thing itself and/or will cause it to appear[2]. This would mean causing God to appear - which was just to dangerous. This latter idea relates to even earlier beliefs to "sympathetic magic[3]"

So the first prohibition was to prevent any "sympathetic magic" (i.e. only God can do magic, not you. You pray to him and he grants you the power, thus showing why he is worthy of being prayed to) and the second to kill off competing religions.

The NT also speaks against idols 1 John 5:21 "Little children, keep yourselves from idols." and
Acts 15:19-20
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols,
  (English Standard Version (ESV))

As it happens, Early Christians saw the Commandment as only concerning depictions of other gods, etc., and only where the depiction of those other gods was made for the purpose of worship (Hence later paintings and statues of Greek gods.)
 1. See the Islamic prohibition of images
 2. this still exists in many cultures where certain words relating to supernatural beings should not be spoken and images of them are frowned upon
 3. I was taught that prehistoric cave paintings of herds of animals and spears flying at them were an ancient form of superstition that indicated that the artist thought that drawing the deed was a help to doing the deed itself - there is probably some truth in this as it required concentrating on what you proposed to do -> thinking ahead
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 01:56:26 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online Ron Jeremy

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 05:45:04 PM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

God has spoken to you about this? He has spoken to you personally and informed you that he hates churches filled with idols? What form did this conversation take? Did anyone else hear it?

Offline Nick

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2013, 05:48:43 PM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

God has spoken to you about this? He has spoken to you personally and informed you that he hates churches filled with idols? What form did this conversation take? Did anyone else hear it?
Then the Muslims must be right about showing pics of God or other things.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 08:43:26 PM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?
A better question is why do YOU think God hates anything?
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 06:38:34 AM »
I'm confused by this.

Humans are not allowed to create divine images, yes?
But god is allowed to create divine images, and does in toast, tree stumps etc

How can you differentiate between a god inspired image, which must be allowed because of the big guys direct intervention, and therefore assent,[1] and a non god inspired image?  :o
 1. was god working through Michelangelo?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 07:20:17 AM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.
Then why does he shower them with endless wealth and an exceedingly large supply of small children to molest?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 11:15:04 AM »
Idolatry?

It's time, once again, for a tangentially-related link[1]:

http://enterthejabberwock.com/2007/10/chick-dissection-whats-wrong-with-this/
 1. Eventually, Marvel comics will unveil Tangentially-related Link Man as their newest supervillain.

Offline Nam

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 09:14:12 PM »
Exodus 20: 4-6
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Sounds simple.  Make no likeness of anything from heaven, underground, or the sea.  Especially important; do NOT worship them, or god will get jealous. (I'm not sure how the omnimax creator of the universe can get jealous of a stone statue, but anyway...)

Yet... people make statues of Jesus and angels all the time.  They're out in public for everyone to see, they're in churches for everyone to bow down to.  I don't even need to provide a picture.  Just google "Jesus statue" or "angel statue", and you'll get lots of results.

But... doesn't the second commandment explicitly forbids them to make those sorts of things?  There's no qualifiers in the commandments.  So there's no reason to think Jesus and angels are exempt from the rule.

If the second commandment still applies, then why blatantly violate it?  If it doesn't apply anymore, then why push to get the ten commandments in the courthouses?  Just call it "The Nine Commandments" then.

You forgot crosses, and Christmas trees (which are paganism, so is Easter i. e. Eostre).

Actually, if you think about it, Churches can also be idols since they all almost look exactly alike and have idols attached to them, and inside them.

-Nam

Offline Nam

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 09:18:34 PM »
I'm confused by this.

Humans are not allowed to create divine images, yes?
But god is allowed to create divine images, and does in toast, tree stumps etc

How can you differentiate between a god inspired image, which must be allowed because of the big guys direct intervention, and therefore assent,[1] and a non god inspired image?  :o
 1. was god working through Michelangelo?

It's the proverbial, "Do as I say not as I do...or you will burn in hell for all eternity."

;)

-Nam

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 11:42:13 PM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

God has spoken to you about this? He has spoken to you personally and informed you that he hates churches filled with idols? What form did this conversation take? Did anyone else hear it?

It's the 2nd commandment. When applied logically, we can see the Catholic Church is filled to the brim with statues.

This stuff is right in front of your faces. It's called "hidden in plain sight."

Offline Antidote

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2013, 12:07:43 AM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

God has spoken to you about this? He has spoken to you personally and informed you that he hates churches filled with idols? What form did this conversation take? Did anyone else hear it?

It's the 2nd commandment. When applied logically, we can see the Catholic Church is filled to the brim with statues.

This stuff is right in front of your faces. It's called "hidden in plain sight."

I don't get how what you said logically follows :/
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »
It's the 2nd commandment. When applied logically, we can see the Catholic Church is filled to the brim with statues.
No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding."
You seem to be trying to lean on your own understanding here.  May want to stop that.  It's demonic.

Besides, you're doing it wrong.  Seeing that the Catholic Church is filled to the brim with statues is not predicated upon anything that the 2nd commandment says.  You merely need to look in a Catholic Church.  If you want to ignore your own beliefs and apply logic and understanding, at least try to do it well.

Quote
This stuff is right in front of your faces. It's called "hidden in plain sight."
Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

Only God has the understanding. Humans do not.
Demons have such an easy time tricking you, don't they?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2013, 11:43:28 AM »
Why do you think God hates those churches that are filled with idols?

Catholics are some of the worst at it. Their whole church is covered in statues.

Hang on here chaps - so far as I can tell (and the choice of wards is indeed a little off as jdawg points out), Skeptic54768 here is agreeing with the OP: he is saying (I believe) that making ANY image (of Jesus, or Mary, or a Saint) IS against the 2nd commandment and should not happen.  He further points out that Catholics are some of the worst at making images against god's direct command - which, presumably, we also agree with.

Problem is, Skep, you've done so much dodging and ducking that even when you are agreeing with us, some folks are gonna find fault.  "Boy that Cried Wolf", or some such.  Anyhoo.....yes, you're quite right.  There should be no representations of any figure, as clearly specified in the 2nd commandment. 

What I honestly don't understand is how - as a Christian who knows full well how misguided his fellow believers are - you can justify time spent here preaching to the heathen than spending that time more productively in helping the people who believe in god, but who have been misled in the detail by popes and priests?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jag

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2013, 03:49:23 PM »
What I honestly don't understand is how - as a Christian who knows full well how misguided his fellow believers are - you can justify time spent here preaching to the heathen than spending that time more productively in helping the people who believe in god, but who have been misled in the detail by popes and priests?

Hmm. I asked him that about a week ago and he ignored it. I wonder if he'll answer you?
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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 04:53:05 PM »
God is not very clear on whether people should imitate his creation or not. Muslims say no, Hindus say absolutely yes, Catholics say sure, JW's say no. Does Jehovah have a facebook page? Would Jesus post selfies?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2013, 08:45:16 PM »
Hmm. I asked him that about a week ago and he ignored it. I wonder if he'll answer you?

The truth of the matter is that I have been to every Catholic Church in my area but as soon as I tell them, "I want to tell you guys about your false religion," they tell me to leave.

Just goes to show how some people refuse to listen to the truth.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2013, 08:49:04 PM »
It's the proverbial, "Do as I say not as I do...or you will burn in hell for all eternity."

;)

-Nam

Nam,

When somebody says to you, "I hate you, nam! I don't want anything to do with you!" and they curse at you, do you want to see them again? Would you want to hang out with them and be in their presence?

Or would you say, "Fine, if he hates me, then I don't want anything to do with him?"

It's the same with God. If you don't wanna be with God, He doesn't wanna be with you.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2013, 09:10:26 PM »
Nam,

When somebody says to you, "I hate you, nam! I don't want anything to do with you!" and they curse at you, do you want to see them again? Would you want to hang out with them and be in their presence?

Or would you say, "Fine, if he hates me, then I don't want anything to do with him?"

It's the same with God. If you don't wanna be with God, He doesn't wanna be with you.

Tempting as it is, to answer that statement, it's not related to what Nam said.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2013, 09:14:33 PM »
The truth of the matter is that I have been to every Catholic Church in my area but as soon as I tell them, "I want to tell you guys about your false religion," they tell me to leave.

Just goes to show how some people refuse to listen to the truth.

Oh, the whole area. That would be 2 churches. I suppose that when you open your mouth, you start to sound like an insufferable pain in the arse, because you are wearing your Silence of the Lambs/The Shining hockey mask. Have you tried taking it off, and talking in a language that they might understand, such as English?

Perhaps say "I'm concerned about the way we display idols in church". You know, make it sound like you are human; just one of them; rather than that you think they are serial killers and child molesters, and you are about to take out an axe.

You are one of them, you know.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2013, 10:24:14 PM »
Hmm. I asked him that about a week ago and he ignored it. I wonder if he'll answer you?

The truth of the matter is that I have been to every Catholic Church in my area but as soon as I tell them, "I want to tell you guys about your false religion," they tell me to leave.

Just goes to show how some people refuse to listen to the truth.

Tell me about it! We've been trying to give the truth to you for weeks and you just refuse to listen to it.

Apparently ignorance is contagious. You guys get it from each other.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything!

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2013, 10:29:42 PM »
It's the same with God. If you don't wanna be with God, He doesn't wanna be with you.

Well, if he's real, he's an absent parent and that never works out well. If he isn't, the absent parent thing isn't his fault. And since I think it is the latter, I have a lot of respect for him because of his non-existence. He can't help it if folks keep spreading lies about him. Not if he doesn't exist.

A lesser non-existent deity would be kind of sensitive about such things. But this one, as a supreme non-existent diety, handles it pretty well, overall.

And I'm pretty sure you christians are appreciative too. You know, that he doesn't get in the way when you keep making new stuff up about him all the time. I hope you guys take time out to thank him every now and then. Even though he is't real. Its the least you can do. And the most you can accomplish.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything!

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2013, 01:36:11 AM »
The truth of the matter is that I have been to every Catholic Church in my area but as soon as I tell them, "I want to tell you guys about your false religion," they tell me to leave.

Just goes to show how some people refuse to listen to the truth.
Please look in the mirror regarding your last comment.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2013, 01:40:33 AM »
Tell me about it! We've been trying to give the truth to you for weeks and you just refuse to listen to it.

Apparently ignorance is contagious. You guys get it from each other.

Are you implying that only atheists have the truth about life?

Isn't that what you guys HATE about religion?  :o

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2013, 01:45:13 AM »
The truth of the matter is that I have been to every Catholic Church in my area but as soon as I tell them, "I want to tell you guys about your false religion," they tell me to leave.

Just goes to show how some people refuse to listen to the truth.
Please look in the mirror regarding your last comment.


What is the basis for House's quote? Do you follow it blindly? (same thing you guys accuse us of doing with the Bible)

Are you saying that the great religious thinkers of the past are were not reasonable?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Does the second commandment still apply or not?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2013, 01:47:59 AM »
It's the same with God. If you don't wanna be with God, He doesn't wanna be with you.

Well, if he's real, he's an absent parent and that never works out well. If he isn't, the absent parent thing isn't his fault. And since I think it is the latter, I have a lot of respect for him because of his non-existence. He can't help it if folks keep spreading lies about him. Not if he doesn't exist.

A lesser non-existent deity would be kind of sensitive about such things. But this one, as a supreme non-existent diety, handles it pretty well, overall.

And I'm pretty sure you christians are appreciative too. You know, that he doesn't get in the way when you keep making new stuff up about him all the time. I hope you guys take time out to thank him every now and then. Even though he is't real. Its the least you can do. And the most you can accomplish.

God is not an absent parent. God is omnipresent. This is common knowledge in Christianity. Perhaps you did not know that. That's fine. But, now you know.

If God left us, the whole universe would just turn to total and complete blackness. This is how we know God is omnipresent.