Author Topic: The supreme arrogance of god  (Read 1292 times)

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Offline Boots

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The supreme arrogance of god
« on: November 23, 2013, 10:23:27 PM »
So, I was thinking today as I was leaf-blowing (a suitably mind-numbing task that allows for thoughts to wander).  I don't know whether this has been specifically addressed before, but I don't recall it.

Biblical god is a real arrogant guy.  I base that only on the fact that the heavenly host and what few earthly souls made it to heaven do nothing but give god praise and adulation.

I mean, seriously...how much praise and adulation can one being take before even *it* says "OK guys, that's enough for now.  My ego has been suitably stroked for a few thousand years, go take a breather."

Further, if heaven is the reason for our existence (as I've heard at least some theists claim), doesn't that mean god created us specifically to fall on our faces in worship for all eternity?  How is that not the very definition of supreme arrogance?
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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2013, 10:57:33 PM »
Yeah-- what is the actual point of it all? No matter how you slice it, the whole purpose of the entire universe seems to be to make a little bunch of fangirls and fanboys for god. The rest is all for what?

Think about all the wasted time and effort: creating of the heavens, the stars, all the planets and galaxies and black holes--most of which have absolutely nothing to do with humans. Then all the trouble of making the earth and air and water and plants and the animals and humans, making up rules and laws and commandments, only to have people screw up and get thrown out of Eden. Let them muddle along until things really get bad, then drown them all and start over again.

Soooo, choose one special group of humans--this time, definitely-- and give them rules and laws and commandments again, having people screw up again, send the boy down to straighten everything out, but that only confuses the issue further.

Sooooo, inspire some people to write a really long and convoluted book that includes among lots of other stuff, rules and laws and commandments. Have people screw up again, muddle along, screw up again. Lather, rinse repeat until the zombie apocalypse, or Obama the Antichrist brings about Armageddon, or the Jews all reach Israel and trigger the rapture, or you are reunited with Xenu or whatever you believe. Then the 2 or 3 people who managed to get it all right, possibly because they were in a coma from age 5 on, get to be the heavenly A-team.

Why not just make some angels and have done with it? If the angels-- perfect, beautiful, right there every day in the very presence of the lord god-- aren't happy and start to foment rebellion, why the eff would you go and make a bunch of flawed lessor beings and expect them to do any better?

Clearly, god is not all that, or the angels would have been hella impressed. There would have been no need to make the earth and create all the subsequent mess. Just to recruit a few billion "likes" on the celestial facebook page?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 12:51:54 AM »
Why not just make some angels and have done with it? If the angels-- perfect, beautiful, right there every day in the very presence of the lord god-

Angels don't have B.O. and bowel problems. Maybe God is like Barron Harkonnen.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Nick

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 01:22:53 AM »
I wonder what those Muslims are going to do with 72 virgins if heaven is 24/7 praising God?  Seems like a waste of virgins.
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Offline anthony_retford

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2013, 10:55:45 AM »
Sems tome Muslims thing heaven is about sexual activities. I wonder what will happen when the first Muslim deflowers the 72nd virgin? Will he demand more?
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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 11:05:41 AM »
It is a story by humans, for humans, in order for some of those humans to have some control over the other humans. It dangles what it self-describes as the ultimate carrot in front of the masses as its authors and, now, its lead practitioners, hope that nobody notices how dumb the story is or how useless it is in our human hierarchy of needs.

Preying on human weaknesses by making us weaker is not a very good strategy. I need only point to history to prove it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2013, 11:55:19 AM »
God does not need to be worshipped. We choose to worship Him because of this awesome world and life he has created for us.

Imagine a parent buying their child a brand new Mercedes Benz for their 18th birthday and the child starts screaming and stammering, "It's not a Rolls Royce!!!!"

Wouldn't we say that child is ungrateful?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 12:01:00 PM »
God does not need to be worshipped. We choose to worship Him because of this awesome world and life he has created for us.

Of course it doesn't and you do! It's not like it threatened you with a non-existent Hell! Wait...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Dante

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 12:01:31 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2013, 12:11:31 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?

The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Boots

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2013, 01:05:55 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?

The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.

I would not throw my children into a pit of fire eternally for being ungrateful.  I also would not think that they should be grateful to me for not being clear about who is giving them what.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2013, 01:25:47 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?

The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.

You're the expert, Skeptic. This one's life doesn't even qualify as a Yugo. Please explain.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2013, 02:40:06 PM »
That ^^ is heartbreaking.
Did the child not pray enough? Did he not pray correctly? Did he pray to the wrong god?
That for me is all the evidence (or lack of) I need to know there is no god.
If a god exists that was powerful enough to create everything and also claims to love us all then how the hell can it sit back and let that child suffer? How could anyone think that a god could make that an OK thing to happen.
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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2013, 02:42:23 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?

The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.
But what was the world created for us to do with it, other than to arrange our lives in such a way as to worship god to show our gratitude-- for him creating the world? A big circle of fail. Your analogy implies that the parent has the child in order to give it a Mercedes, and to then have the kid be grateful about it.

And you did not address the other point, that most of what god has created has nothing to do with humans at all. A complete waste of time and space. In fact, if god made all that with us in mind, he does not even seem to like us very much. Around 99.99999999% of the universe is actively hostile to human life, ie trying to kill us, and most of the earth is unable to support human life without a lot of non-god help.

To extend your car analogy, the parent built an enormous factory that churns out all kinds of things, including the Mercedes that the kids all get on their birthday. But every other day a giant angry robot comes out of the factory and chases the kids and tries to kill them; and a huge tank tries to roll over them and crush them,  and a death ray machine fires at them constantly, and a water cannon machine shoots tons of water at them.

The kids that manage to survive all that (by evolving resistance to the stuff that killed off the rest) get the Mercedes. Hurray! Thanks, god-parent!

Only, 25% of the Mercedes won't ever even start.[1] Of the ones that start, only a third run really well.[2]  The rest of the Mercedes break down:  the engine seizes up, it stalls by the side of the road, it catches fire and explodes, it crashes into trees when the brakes fail.[3]

So, then the parent gets angry because not all the kids are grateful enough? And decides to let the giant robot crush them for all eternity. Nice.

What is really effed up about this whole scenario is that the kids who are the most grateful are the ones who end up with cars that are crap and don't run at all. Their gratitude is thrown back into their faces like a pile of sh!t. The most devout god-believing people in the world are in third world countries where their lives are awful beyond belief. Nobody prays more and is more open to god than war refugees or parents watching their children die in poverty. And nobody gets less of god's loving care. Can you blame them if they lose hope and ask for a Rolls?

The kids who get the really nice, well-running cars completely ignore the gratitude thing and nothing bad ever seems to happen to them. In fact, sometimes they do get the Rolls as well. Secular people in the US, Europe and Japan, who never even think about god one way or another, live long, healthy, happy lives with relative peace and prosperity. I am an atheist with a very good life, due to accident of birth. God must have wanted me to be happy and privileged, as well as undeserving and ungrateful.

It's just as if real life is the exact opposite of the fairy tales where the poor, humble grateful child who treats the witch with respect gets the castle and the kingdom. Wonder why that is..... :-\
 1. That's the 25% of people that don't even get to be born due to miscarriage, god's loving abortion.
 2. That's the 30% of the planet that lives a good, full life with clean water, enough to eat and a safe warm place to live.
 3. Those are the people whose lives are messed up from the get-go by war, famine, poverty, crime, oppression, violence, drugs, birth defects, or living in North Korea. 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wright

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2013, 03:23:11 PM »
The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.

The god you invoke in this analogy is a grotesquely cruel and stupid one. It deserves its non-existence more than most deities, which is saying something.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2013, 08:26:28 PM »
Did I see a Dune reference?


“Enter no conflict against fanatics unless you can defuse them. Oppose a religion with another religion only if your proofs (miracles) are irrefutable or if you can mesh in a way that the fanatics accept you as god-inspired. This has long been the barrier to science assuming a mantle of divine revelation. Science is so obviously man-made. Fanatics (and many are fanatic on one subject or another) must know where you stand, but more important, must recognise who whispers in your ear." - Missionaria Protectiva, Primary Teaching.”

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Offline MadBunny

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2013, 08:29:22 PM »
God does not need to be worshipped. We choose to worship Him because of this awesome world and life he has created for us.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Antidote

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2013, 08:30:40 PM »
God does not need to be worshipped. We choose to worship Him because of this awesome world and life he has created for us.



If anything, that's evidence for how much of an infinite prick he is, at least now we have ways of removing sodium from the water.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2013, 08:32:20 PM »
Why was the world created then, skep?

Also, if your god doesn't need worship, why do you think he punishes those that dont?

The world was created for us.

In the same way a parent would punish their child if they complained about the Mercedes.

You're the expert, Skeptic. This one's life doesn't even qualify as a Yugo. Please explain.



Poor guy who took the photograph was disallowed to help the child, he ultimately committed suicide due to the guilt. Awesome god my ass.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2013, 08:38:49 PM »
Poor guy who took the photograph was disallowed to help the child, he ultimately committed suicide due to the guilt. Awesome god my ass.

*links for people who might not be familiar with this story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter
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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2013, 12:03:38 AM »
Poor guy who took the photograph was disallowed to help the child, he ultimately committed suicide due to the guilt. Awesome god my ass.

*links for people who might not be familiar with this story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

Horrible. Just horrible. I can't even imagine that.

How do I respond to such a sensitive subject without coming across as looking like a dick to you guys? I will try my best.

While something like this is certainly tragic, I will say that some people would not have committed suicide. This is not a knock on Kevin. It's just that I have noticed that people deal with tragedy in different ways. I have no idea what will happen to his soul. One of the things I always struggled with was people committing suicide. As far as I know, you can't repent of of a sin after you die. So I have no idea if suicide is a one way ticket to Hell. I certainly hope it is not but this is one of my stumbling blocks with the faith.

Usually people think committing suicide is the coward's way out, but I can not say that this man was a coward. That seems very low to me. I am confused.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2013, 04:34:09 AM »
Imagine a parent buying their child a brand new Mercedes Benz for their 18th birthday and the child starts screaming and stammering, "It's not a Rolls Royce!!!!"

Wouldn't we say that child is ungrateful?

Is there no fault on behalf of the parent?  At the very least, we could say that that parent clearly doesn't know their child very well if they buy them something the child does not want.  We might ask, did the parent buy the child something that the child wanted, or did the parent buy the child something that the parent wanted?

A human parent in that situation might of course feel rather slighted - but fortunately Yahweh is not in that situation.  He doesn't give presents so that people feel grateful to him - that would be a rather petty thing for a god to do.  So I don't understand your analogy - unless you are implying that your god requires us to be grateful for whatever he deigns to give us?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2013, 07:05:18 AM »
God does not need to be worshipped. We choose to worship Him because of this awesome world and life he has created for us.

If god doesn't need worship how do we know that he wants worship?
If god doesn't want it then why do it?
Isn't doing something that god doesn't want blasphemy as you are going against his wishes?
If god wants worship, as an all powerful being isn't wanting something pretty much a demand that can't be refused?
If god is demanding something that he doesn't need isn't that an example of arrogance in the extreme?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2013, 07:13:50 AM »
Horrible. Just horrible. I can't even imagine that.

How do I respond to such a sensitive subject without coming across as looking like a dick to you guys? I will try my best.

While something like this is certainly tragic, I will say that some people would not have committed suicide. This is not a knock on Kevin. It's just that I have noticed that people deal with tragedy in different ways. I have no idea what will happen to his soul. One of the things I always struggled with was people committing suicide. As far as I know, you can't repent of of a sin after you die. So I have no idea if suicide is a one way ticket to Hell. I certainly hope it is not but this is one of my stumbling blocks with the faith.

Usually people think committing suicide is the coward's way out, but I can not say that this man was a coward. That seems very low to me. I am confused.

Lets shift our focus to the picture itself. What does the picture tell you about your god? What can you deduce from the photo about what yahweh has done for that child? Does the picture tell you that life is precious to yahweh? Does the picture suggest that yahweh is helping that child in its time of need? Does that picture suggest that child had a fair shot at life? What does the picture tell you?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2013, 09:05:23 AM »
Usually people think committing suicide is the coward's way out, but I can not say that this man was a coward. That seems very low to me. I am confused.

Eh? Most people commit suicide, due to intense depression. It's a mental disease, with no real known cause; perhaps viral, deficiency, inflammatory, etc. It's an intense feeling of self loathing, despair, and physical pain, plus inability to sleep.  The last person I talked to with it, said she spent most of the night wondering if she could hang herself from the door knob. She was also considering having a gall bladder surgery, in the hope that she would die on the operating table. A few year prior, she considered adopting an african child, but I can't remember how that went.

So, yes. Most people who suicide, do it because of a mental process that they have relatively little control over.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Jag

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2013, 10:49:40 AM »
Poor guy who took the photograph was disallowed to help the child, he ultimately committed suicide due to the guilt. Awesome god my ass.

*links for people who might not be familiar with this story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

Horrible. Just horrible. I can't even imagine that.

How do I respond to such a sensitive subject without coming across as looking like a dick to you guys? I will try my best.

While something like this is certainly tragic, I will say that some people would not have committed suicide. This is not a knock on Kevin. It's just that I have noticed that people deal with tragedy in different ways. I have no idea what will happen to his soul. One of the things I always struggled with was people committing suicide. As far as I know, you can't repent of of a sin after you die. So I have no idea if suicide is a one way ticket to Hell. I certainly hope it is not but this is one of my stumbling blocks with the faith.

Usually people think committing suicide is the coward's way out, but I can not say that this man was a coward. That seems very low to me. I am confused.
Ok to give credit where credit is due: I'm pleased to see some demonstration that you are capable of seeing shades of grey in your very black and white world view, and can dig up some compassion for the photographer in the story.

However, I'm not sure that talking about how other people might have responded to the same situation is really moving the discussion forward, and it's not at all relevant.

Now let's talk about the starving child who's death led to the photographer's suicide.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 10:51:56 AM by Jag »
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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2013, 04:50:31 PM »
It is interesting how skeptic can struggle with the suicidal photographer's situation but has still not addressed the horror of a child dying of starvation. Both events are god's will, right? If god did not want the child to die, it would not die. If god did not want the man who witnessed the child dying to kill himself, he would not have killed himself.

Is there any way for a god-- a being far more powerful than any human-- to not be responsible for any of this? Or is it time for the "mysterious ways beyond our limited puny minds" cop-out?

(Reminder: I don't think that god really has anything to do with anything. Just substitute Santa or Mr. Spock or Xena Warrior Princess for god. )
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2013, 09:49:53 AM »
How is that not the very definition of supreme arrogance?

How is arrogance defined?  It is the behavior of acting superior to other people. 

If you were the omnipotent creator of all being, would you not actually be better than other people?  Would you not be justified in thinking you were superior to the talking chimps you created on a speck of dust orbiting a medium sized star in one of trillions of galaxies?  What would be the point of humility if you were omniscient?

Just sayin'
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2013, 10:16:13 AM »
How is arrogance defined?  It is the behavior of acting superior to other people. 

If you were the omnipotent creator of all being, would you not actually be better than other people?  Would you not be justified in thinking you were superior to the talking chimps you created on a speck of dust orbiting a medium sized star in one of trillions of galaxies?  What would be the point of humility if you were omniscient?

Just sayin'

How does that make it non-arrogant? It might be justified arrogance, but it's arrogance nonetheless.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.