Why I decided to become a Wiccan

[Dante]

You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

I ask yet another theist: Is there sin in heaven?

what part does the free will of man play in this fall?

I ask yet another theist: Is there free will in heaven?

Maybe someday I'll get an answer.

Bueller? Bueller?

[harbinger77]

After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Okay. 

So any time I hear a tale like "I was a dreadful sinner, as low as I could go.  Then one day I happened into a church, and felt god speak to me, and my life was changed" I should tell them they are deluded, or lying? 

Because a story like that could NEVER happen if your god so removes hmiself from sin he can't even look on it or bear to be around it.

I was saved in my van on the way to work all alone singing a country song. No church no "sinners prayer." Just me and God.

Interesting place to take this. I wouldn't call Him or her a lyer. I just think you have been warped by Armenian theology.. That's all.. I assume you have heard it so much you may well think it's the only Christian Idea out there.
Enter the Tulip for the answer you seek
God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

I would think one of you would get my theology straight. I reference the tulip all the time. How can you converse with me if you continue to see me through the more common view of Armenian theology. I don't even believe things work the way you protest against. Not that you would like the tulip... but it may answer some questions.

[harbinger77]

You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen.

That is not a functional sentence.  You have not clearly communicated anything to me.

His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Same here.  Did you mean "too pure"?  If so, how is it that this supposedly omnipotent deity of yours is defeated by "sin"?  If you want to hide something from your god, cloak it with sin.  I guess that would negate omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. 

Of course, I do not take this literally.  You are speaking emotively, figuratively, not to express any kind of fact, but to describe how wonderful you think this idea is.  Please refrain from this.  It is preaching. 

Your question is Just how far did sin make us fall? what part does the free will of man play in this fall?

No.  That is not my question at all.  My question is "are you on medication, and if not, are your local authorities aware?"  Because you sound absolutely, balls-to-the-wall, barking mad.

soooo... expressing my view is preaching... but your view is what exactly?

[Anfauglir]

After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Okay. 

So any time I hear a tale like "I was a dreadful sinner, as low as I could go.  Then one day I happened into a church, and felt god speak to me, and my life was changed" I should tell them they are deluded, or lying? 

Because a story like that could NEVER happen if your god so removes hmiself from sin he can't even look on it or bear to be around it.

I was saved in my van on the way to work all alone singing a country song. No church no "sinners prayer." Just me and God.

The I don't understand.  You say you were "saved" in your van, just you and your god.  But to be saved you must have been a sinner.

So my question was, since you said that god separated himself from creation because he can't even look upon sin, how was he able to be in the same van as a sinner?

I honestly don't get it.  If god left the world because he cannot bear to be around sin, how could he be in your van with a sinner - be ANYWHERE with a sinner - to save them?  Conversely, if god has no problem being with sinners, then he has NOT withdrawn from the world.

Can you help me out here, because the lines I've bolded seem to be mutually exclusive.

[jynnan tonnix]

God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

The thing which totally, completely flummoxes me about this attitude is that while, if you are chosen, that's just peachy for you, but it requires that you be just as happy beleiving that your god created countless living, breathing, feeling people for the sole purpose of casting them into eternal torment once their proportionally blink-of-an-eye lifetime was done.

First, I can't even fathom why someone would think a god like that would be worthy of worship, and second, someone who DID manage to do that would seem, to me, like the most selfish kind of person possible.

[screwtape]

soooo... expressing my view is preaching... but your view is what exactly?

No. Expressing your view and discussing it in factual terms is not preaching.  Saying gobbledigook and then either not responding or responding with more gobbledigook is preaching.  The language you use does not lend itself to actual discussion in concrete, rational terms.  The language you use is language often heard from the pulpit.  And not much two-way discussion happens around a pulpit.  In fact, it is a lecture, and often the content of it is simply designed to evoke emotions but is otherwise meaningless.

"His eyes are too pure to even look upon sin," is a nonsense statement and contradicts other traits you have claimed of god.  What do you mean by "purity" and why does that quality make god's eyes allergic to looking at people not doing his will?  What is with the human obsession with purity?  Pure iron is a poor material.  If you "taint" it with carbon, nickel, chrome and several other elements, you get stainless steel, which is far, far more useful.  If god is an incorporeal entity - ie, a spirit - then how does he even have eyes?  And as I already pointed out, if god is omnipotent, how is it that sin is such a powerful talisman against him?  What are the ramifications of that on omniscience and omnipresence? 

And to top all this off, you statement is impossible to either verify or negate, by your own definition.  We cannot put god in an opthamologist's chair, show him some sin and observe the reaction.  You may as well be describing the golden harp Jack found in the giant's house when he climbed the beanstalk.  It is gobbledigook.  If I asked you how you know these things, I'd get more gobbledigook. 

You've not thought about any of this because your statement was not a claim about reality.  The content is mostly irrelevant even to you, because it is not about content.  It is about declaring what team you are on.[1]  So, what your statement about god's eyes really boils down to is you have a belief in a belief and this is a rather opaque way for you to express it.  "god's eyes are too pure to even look upon sin!"  Translation: "I think this idea of god is really awesome!  Go team theist!"  How nice for you. 

But two things override that.  First, this forum is not a platform for you (or anyone else) to broadcast your sincerely held beliefs.  Second, this forum is for discussion, and your commentary does not lend itself to a two way communication.  Which, to close the loop, bears a striking resemblance to the emanations from a pulpit. ie, preaching.

1.	http://lesswrong.com/lw/i6/professing_and_cheering/

[harbinger77]

After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Okay. 

So any time I hear a tale like "I was a dreadful sinner, as low as I could go.  Then one day I happened into a church, and felt god speak to me, and my life was changed" I should tell them they are deluded, or lying? 

Because a story like that could NEVER happen if your god so removes hmiself from sin he can't even look on it or bear to be around it.

I was saved in my van on the way to work all alone singing a country song. No church no "sinners prayer." Just me and God.

The I don't understand.  You say you were "saved" in your van, just you and your god.  But to be saved you must have been a sinner.

So my question was, since you said that god separated himself from creation because he can't even look upon sin, how was he able to be in the same van as a sinner?

I honestly don't get it.  If god left the world because he cannot bear to be around sin, how could he be in your van with a sinner - be ANYWHERE with a sinner - to save them?  Conversely, if god has no problem being with sinners, then he has NOT withdrawn from the world.

Can you help me out here, because the lines I've bolded seem to be mutually exclusive.

answered that already... #59

[harbinger77]

God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

The thing which totally, completely flummoxes me about this attitude is that while, if you are chosen, that's just peachy for you, but it requires that you be just as happy beleiving that your god created countless living, breathing, feeling people for the sole purpose of casting them into eternal torment once their proportionally blink-of-an-eye lifetime was done.

First, I can't even fathom why someone would think a god like that would be worthy of worship, and second, someone who DID manage to do that would seem, to me, like the most selfish kind of person possible.

I suppose if you WANTED to be saved and were not, I may feel a great sadness.
Do you want to be saved? Do you want to live your life as a subject of Christ? If the answer is no then why do you split hairs between a decision by you and a choosing by God when at the moment you want neither?

[jaimehlers]

The I don't understand.  You say you were "saved" in your van, just you and your god.  But to be saved you must have been a sinner.

So my question was, since you said that god separated himself from creation because he can't even look upon sin, how was he able to be in the same van as a sinner?

I honestly don't get it.  If god left the world because he cannot bear to be around sin, how could he be in your van with a sinner - be ANYWHERE with a sinner - to save them?  Conversely, if god has no problem being with sinners, then he has NOT withdrawn from the world.

Can you help me out here, because the lines I've bolded seem to be mutually exclusive.

answered that already... #59

Okay, so here's Reply #59.

I was saved in my van on the way to work all alone singing a country song. No church no "sinners prayer." Just me and God.

Interesting place to take this. I wouldn't call Him or her a lyer. I just think you have been warped by Armenian theology.. That's all.. I assume you have heard it so much you may well think it's the only Christian Idea out there.
Enter the Tulip for the answer you seek
God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

I would think one of you would get my theology straight. I reference the tulip all the time. How can you converse with me if you continue to see me through the more common view of Armenian theology. I don't even believe things work the way you protest against. Not that you would like the tulip... but it may answer some questions.

I don't see a single word on how your god could stand to be anywhere near a sinner.  Just talk about him choosing or not choosing people to have mercy on.  That doesn't explain anything.

By the way, it's evident you think highly of this "tulip" of yours, but it really doesn't explain anything either.  It's basically just "everything about humans sucks, God has already decided what will happen to us, nobody has any say, and if you aren't one of the chosen ones, sucks to be you".  It's nothing more than determinism writ divine, without even the justification that there's nothing in the universe that could change its mechanistic, deterministic systems.  Instead, you have a god who might as well be a machine, who might as well pick its 'elect' out of a Powerball machine.

[jynnan tonnix]

I suppose if you WANTED to be saved and were not, I may feel a great sadness.
Do you want to be saved? Do you want to live your life as a subject of Christ? If the answer is no then why do you split hairs between a decision by you and a choosing by God when at the moment you want neither?

Sure, it would be nice, on some level, to feel assured of an eternity of bliss after this life is over. I've tried believing, but, in the end those points I mentioned make it impossible.

I simply cannot believe that a purportedly "loving" being would set up a system wherein the vast majority of his creation is doomed for eternal punishment, and even if I managed to wrap my head around that, I could not feel anything like love...could not, indeed, feel anything but hatred for such a being, even if I was assured of my own salvation, if I felt that even one person I loved was, instead, bound for hellfire and damnation through no fault of their own but an inability to believe in something for which there was no evidence.

Heck, it wouldn't even have to be someone I loved. Just the thought that this god would cast anyone into infinite punishment for a finite transgression...and not even a transgression, but something they HAD NO CONTROL OVER (not believing in something they saw no evidence for) would be enough to make me turn my back on this being.

Sure, salvation sounds like a lovely thing, but when the least bit of critical thinking beyond the edges of the concept turn up nothing but injustice, there's just too much nastiness to swallow.
Would I like to be saved? Of course. But until someone can explain it to me in a way which doesn't necessitate me turning a blind eye to the alternative, I couldn't manage to derive any sort of joy from the idea that I am bound for bliss while the vast majority of others are bound for torment.

[jdawg70]

God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

The thing which totally, completely flummoxes me about this attitude is that while, if you are chosen, that's just peachy for you, but it requires that you be just as happy beleiving that your god created countless living, breathing, feeling people for the sole purpose of casting them into eternal torment once their proportionally blink-of-an-eye lifetime was done.

First, I can't even fathom why someone would think a god like that would be worthy of worship, and second, someone who DID manage to do that would seem, to me, like the most selfish kind of person possible.

I suppose if you WANTED to be saved and were not, I may feel a great sadness.
Do you want to be saved? Do you want to live your life as a subject of Christ? If the answer is no then why do you split hairs between a decision by you and a choosing by God when at the moment you want neither?

But, apparently, god made the decision to save her long before she ever got the opportunity to decide whether she wanted to be saved.

There will be a little girl born on April 6th, 2020, who god has chosen not to save.  Do you feel any sadness for her?

[Anfauglir]

I don't see a single word on how your god could stand to be anywhere near a sinner.  Just talk about him choosing or not choosing people to have mercy on.  That doesn't explain anything.

Thanks Jaime - no, I don't understand the answer either, Harbinger.

You said:
After sin God separated himself from the creation.....His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

You also said:
I was saved in my van .....Just me and God.

I do not understand:
How a god too pure to be with sin who has withdrawn from the world, can have been in a van with a sinner to save them.

That's it.  To me, its like you have said "I've never ever met Bruce Willis - he refuses to be in the same room as me" - then next thing, you are saying "when Bruce Willis and I were chatting in the same room the other day..."

I do not understand your answer in #59, it does not appear to make sense.

Please can you explain again - using different words - how the two bold statements can both be true?

[Boots]

God will have Mercy on who He will. Chosen from the foundation of the world to be a forgiven sinner. Before you are born God has  chosen you... or he hasn't.

i can't believe you'd worship a god who is, by your own words, such a fucking asshole.  A creator who decides BEFORE A SOUL IS CREATED whether it will be cast into eternal torment?  Seriously, how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance that belief must cause you??

[jdawg70]

i can't believe you'd worship a god who is, by your own words, such a fucking asshole.  A creator who decides BEFORE A SOUL IS CREATED whether it will be cast into eternal torment?  Seriously, how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance that belief must cause you??

That's easy - he's part of the chosen.

His morality is not derived from empathy; it is not derived from evaluating the results actions have on others, but rather derived solely upon whether Don Corleonegod has a rule covering it.

Harbinger77 deals with it easily because he doesn't give a s**t about other people.  God could directly come down and break a baby's legs and I'm pretty sure harbinger77 would see no moral failing.  God can only be an a**hole if he hurts harbinger77.

[jaimehlers]

^That's something that never has made sense about Calvinism.  I mean, if it's ultimately predestined whether you're chosen by God or not, and nothing a person can do will possibly change it...why bother talking about it?  I mean, the whole point of that "tulip" doctrine is that no matter what a person does during their lifetime, they can't be un-saved, no matter what - and whether they're saved or not is determined before they're ever born.  So if one of the elect of God manages to die without hearing about Calvinism, they're still saved.

[Anfauglir]

^That's something that never has made sense about Calvinism.  I mean, if it's ultimately predestined whether you're chosen by God or not, and nothing a person can do will possibly change it...why bother talking about it?  I mean, the whole point of that "tulip" doctrine is that no matter what a person does during their lifetime, they can't be un-saved, no matter what - and whether they're saved or not is determined before they're ever born.  So if one of the elect of God manages to die without hearing about Calvinism, they're still saved.

If that's the case, what possible benefit can there be for Calvinists to preach?  If salvation is preordained, nothing that say or do can make a difference, so in effect all they are really doing is saying "ha-ha, I'm saved and yoooou're not", boasting about what they have that can NEVER be gained by others, no matter how they strive or wish or pray.

Calvinism as you summarise it may not be an evil doctrine per se.  But certainly any Calvinist who speaks of their faith to a non-Calvinist ticks all my goxes for being evil.  Like waggling a firstful of tenners and your doorkeys in front of a homeless man and saying "my life is great!" - not a nice thing to do by any token.

[screwtape]

If that's the case, what possible benefit can there be for Calvinists to preach?

no benefit, it's just what jesus H told them to do. so they better do it.

But I'd go one step farther - what is the point of even having a life?  Why would a god create a world where souls are injected into bodies and then extracted and separated, especially when he knows where they are going before injecting them into bodies?  And theists say atheists are nihilists.

 

[harbinger77]

^That's something that never has made sense about Calvinism.  I mean, if it's ultimately predestined whether you're chosen by God or not, and nothing a person can do will possibly change it...why bother talking about it?  I mean, the whole point of that "tulip" doctrine is that no matter what a person does during their lifetime, they can't be un-saved, no matter what - and whether they're saved or not is determined before they're ever born.  So if one of the elect of God manages to die without hearing about Calvinism, they're still saved.

No.. calvinism is a theology. Not what saves. I belive there are people who hold Armenian views who can be just as saved as me.
 Calvinism covers salvation and rather it can be lost that's true. However, that's not the focus. The bigger point is The sovereignty of God and what that must truly mean. Everything rests on that.

what the rest of you presuppose is that the unregenerate man wants to "strive and pray," to be saved and live a Holy life dedicated to God. I say that unless there is a working of the Holy Spirit you will NOT want to "strive and pray," and be saved and live a Holy life. Unless there is some sort of selfish reason. The motive is God NOT eternal life or a ticket out of hell. As we see with the rich young ruler.

We preach because we are commanded to be teachers inside the church. We preach outside the church because we are commanded to spread the good news. We are sent. We, in this age, are the feet and hands of our Lord. He saves, we plant the seeds.

On the other hand this comes from the words "Gods elect" The Armenian view is while you have free will God already knows which choice you will make.


It may be important to note that most who hold the Armenian view don't know they do. In the interest of all involved as a scholarly task maybe you can pick the one you feel best supports the text. I would like to hear feed back, why not. At least understand what the most common theist filters their doctrine with.
http://www.ccfestus.com/books/taylor_calvinism.htm

[harbinger77]

i can't believe you'd worship a god who is, by your own words, such a fucking a**hole.  A creator who decides BEFORE A SOUL IS CREATED whether it will be cast into eternal torment?  Seriously, how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance that belief must cause you??

That's easy - he's part of the chosen.

His morality is not derived from empathy; it is not derived from evaluating the results actions have on others, but rather derived solely upon whether Don Corleonegod has a rule covering it.

Harbinger77 deals with it easily because he doesn't give a s**t about other people.  God could directly come down and break a baby's legs and I'm pretty sure harbinger77 would see no moral failing.  God can only be an a**hole if he hurts harbinger77.

Wrong all over. I care deeply about my fellow man. Why would you assume I don't.
 God is just. If he broke my legs I would assume he had a greater purpose in mind. I wouldn't be angry with the Potter, I am but a vessel. As are you, no matter your age.

[jaimehlers]

Wrong all over. I care deeply about my fellow man. Why would you assume I don't.

Why?  Because you say:

God is just.

In short, you're willing to make excuses for anything your god does.  Doesn't matter what he does or who he hurts.  It's always for some higher purpose - not that you have the first idea of whether that's true in the first place.  Because you don't, and never will.

If he broke my legs I would assume he had a greater purpose in mind. I wouldn't be angry with the Potter, I am but a vessel. As are you, no matter your age.

The clay a potter uses to make pottery doesn't have a mind of it's own.  It doesn't have a different idea of what it wants for itself than the potter; it doesn't complain about how the potter shapes it.  And it doesn't shriek in agony if it's smashed by the potter and discarded, just because he's unsatisfied with some aspect of it.

[jaimehlers]

No.. calvinism is a theology. Not what saves. I belive there are people who hold Armenian views who can be just as saved as me.
 Calvinism covers salvation and rather it can be lost that's true. However, that's not the focus. The bigger point is The sovereignty of God and what that must truly mean. Everything rests on that.

what the rest of you presuppose is that the unregenerate man wants to "strive and pray," to be saved and live a Holy life dedicated to God. I say that unless there is a working of the Holy Spirit you will NOT want to "strive and pray," and be saved and live a Holy life. Unless there is some sort of selfish reason. The motive is God NOT eternal life or a ticket out of hell. As we see with the rich young ruler.

We preach because we are commanded to be teachers inside the church. We preach outside the church because we are commanded to spread the good news. We are sent. We, in this age, are the feet and hands of our Lord. He saves, we plant the seeds.

On the other hand this comes from the words "Gods elect" The Armenian view is while you have free will God already knows which choice you will make.

It may be important to note that most who hold the Armenian view don't know they do. In the interest of all involved as a scholarly task maybe you can pick the one you feel best supports the text. I would like to hear feed back, why not. At least understand what the most common theist filters their doctrine with.
http://www.ccfestus.com/books/taylor_calvinism.htm

So, Calvinism is about trying to make excuses for God's behavior to other people.  To attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions of a cruel, uncaring deity to the very people who he, according to you, causes the most hurt to - the ones who are not his 'elect' and are destined for whatever cosmic trash dump he has in mind after he breaks them for the flaws he put in them.

It's for this reason that I detest Calvinism.  Not because I think that any god worthy of the name would act like how you describe, but the unsane attitude of the people who think that such a being is actually worth worshiping.

[jdawg70]

Wrong all over. I care deeply about my fellow man. Why would you assume I don't.
 God is just. If he broke my legs I would assume he had a greater purpose in mind. I wouldn't be angry with the Potter, I am but a vessel. As are you, no matter your age.

What jaimehlers said.

You've equated yourself, and other people, to an inanimate, unfeeling object.  Talk about dehumanizing - you've constructed a very convenient way for you to discard empathy.

If god decided to break someone's legs, yours or a baby's, your evaluation of god's behavior, and subsequent response to that behavior, does not, at all, take into account the feelings and well-beings of others.

[Anfauglir]

I don't see a single word on how your god could stand to be anywhere near a sinner.  Just talk about him choosing or not choosing people to have mercy on.  That doesn't explain anything.

Thanks Jaime - no, I don't understand the answer either, Harbinger.

You said:
After sin God separated himself from the creation.....His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

You also said:
I was saved in my van .....Just me and God.

I do not understand:
How a god too pure to be with sin who has withdrawn from the world, can have been in a van with a sinner to save them.

That's it.  To me, its like you have said "I've never ever met Bruce Willis - he refuses to be in the same room as me" - then next thing, you are saying "when Bruce Willis and I were chatting in the same room the other day..."

I do not understand your answer in #59, it does not appear to make sense.

Please can you explain again - using different words - how the two bold statements can both be true?

Still don't understand.  Still waiting for those sentences to be reconciled.

[harbinger77]

I don't see a single word on how your god could stand to be anywhere near a sinner.  Just talk about him choosing or not choosing people to have mercy on.  That doesn't explain anything.

Thanks Jaime - no, I don't understand the answer either, Harbinger.

You said:
After sin God separated himself from the creation.....His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

You also said:
I was saved in my van .....Just me and God.

I do not understand:
How a god too pure to be with sin who has withdrawn from the world, can have been in a van with a sinner to save them.

That's it.  To me, its like you have said "I've never ever met Bruce Willis - he refuses to be in the same room as me" - then next thing, you are saying "when Bruce Willis and I were chatting in the same room the other day..."

I do not understand your answer in #59, it does not appear to make sense.

Please can you explain again - using different words - how the two bold statements can both be true?

Still don't understand.  Still waiting for those sentences to be reconciled.

I'll try to do this Justice....
Considering God knows all... Before he created anything he knew the end.
Speaking of our current time frame or dispensation being between the 2 Advents (coming of Christ)
On one hand we can say God saw that you would accept Christ and therefore before creation you, by your choice, are a forgiven sinner before you were ever born.
Or.. the blood of Christ is in some sort of cosmic bank account. If you choose to make a withdraw then you are saved. If you choose to ignore the account you are not.

Considering the Sovereign aspect we can say that God himself chose his people. You or I will accept Christ because it was predestined by God himself.
Not by any choice of our own. In this case you or I  have always been a forgiven sinner.
or... There is no cosmic bank account which we can draw from rather the funds are already credited to our own account.
If you are pre-forgiven why can't God be in your van too?
Get it?
I hope this clears things up.

I was talking to my wife and we both suppose as you all have "no dog in this fight" Maybe it would be interesting to hear everyone's take on this passage.
Rom8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the
called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[Anfauglir]

After sin God separated himself from the creation.....His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

You also said:
I was saved in my van .....Just me and God.

Still don't understand.  Still waiting for those sentences to be reconciled.

I'll try to do this Justice....
Considering God knows all... Before he created anything he knew the end.
Speaking of our current time frame or dispensation being between the 2 Advents (coming of Christ)
On one hand we can say God saw that you would accept Christ and therefore before creation you, by your choice, are a forgiven sinner before you were ever born.
Or.. the blood of Christ is in some sort of cosmic bank account. If you choose to make a withdraw then you are saved. If you choose to ignore the account you are not.

Considering the Sovereign aspect we can say that God himself chose his people. You or I will accept Christ because it was predestined by God himself.
Not by any choice of our own. In this case you or I  have always been a forgiven sinner.
or... There is no cosmic bank account which we can draw from rather the funds are already credited to our own account.

Oh, I get all that - that's not the issue.  That your god determines before birth whether I will be saved or not (thus rendering all life meaningless) I get.  But that wasn't my question.

If you are pre-forgiven why can't God be in your van too?
Get it?
I hope this clears things up.

Not really.  Because while I agree god could be in your van AFTER the salvation has happened, the impression you were giving is that your god was there FOR the salvation.  Which means he would have been in the van while you were a sinner.  Which contradicts what you said previously about his being unable to be around sin.

Perhaps you could clarify - was your god with you in your van while you were still a sinner, or did he only appear after you were "saved"?

Additional question: when you are talking to me, or to other sinners, is your god still with you, or does he need to distance himself from you while you are in proximity to sin?

[harbinger77]

Perhaps you could clarify - was your god with you in your van while you were still a sinner, or did he
only appear after you were "saved"?

Maybe I Should back up a bit and Not use God so freely. I just realized saying God is NOT the same to you as the Holy Spirit of God, as it is to me. Please forgive my Christianesen God Himself stays on the throne at at all times. His worker or power in this world is the Holy Spirit.
That being said. Before the foundation of the world Before adam and eve. I was chosen. Technically speaking there was no "before salvation" in this dispensation or time frame between the 2 advents of Christ. I was chosen and forgiven before the foundation of the world. The Holy Spirit was always with me.

Additional question: when you are talking to me, or to other sinners, is your god still with you, or does
he need to distance himself from you while you are in proximity to sin?

The Holy Spirit of God dwells within me promised to never depart from me so of course if you and I (assuming here you are not elect) had dinner or something. The Holy Spirit of God would still indwell me.

Maybe I should also say as long as I'm flesh I will be a sinner and have always been. The only difference between elect and non is God's Special Grace.

[harbinger77]

I was really hoping someone might tackle this passage. Just for my own curiosity.
Rom8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the
called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he
might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[G-Roll]

What the hell I will take a crack at it...

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the
called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he
might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Sounds to me that god loves those who love him. Those who love him are predestined, chosen, and all around awesome.
Do I get a gold star?

[jdawg70]

Perhaps you could clarify - was your god with you in your van while you were still a sinner, or did he
only appear after you were "saved"?

Maybe I Should back up a bit and Not use God so freely. I just realized saying God is NOT the same to you as the Holy Spirit of God, as it is to me. Please forgive my Christianesen God Himself stays on the throne at at all times. His worker or power in this world is the Holy Spirit.
That being said. Before the foundation of the world Before adam and eve. I was chosen. Technically speaking there was no "before salvation" in this dispensation or time frame between the 2 advents of Christ. I was chosen and forgiven before the foundation of the world. The Holy Spirit was always with me.

Additional question: when you are talking to me, or to other sinners, is your god still with you, or does
he need to distance himself from you while you are in proximity to sin?

The Holy Spirit of God dwells within me promised to never depart from me so of course if you and I (assuming here you are not elect) had dinner or something. The Holy Spirit of God would still indwell me.

Maybe I should also say as long as I'm flesh I will be a sinner and have always been. The only difference between elect and non is God's Special Grace.

Could you explain the whole Jesus-dying-on-the-cross-for-salvation thing in light of this?