Author Topic: Why I decided to become a Wiccan  (Read 6376 times)

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2013, 02:04:48 AM »
Why do wiccans or any pagans worship the moon or stars or plants or animals or the forces of nature?

Seems pretty obvious to me: because these things are intriguing, powerful or beautiful, and most importantly, real.

Everyone can agree that they exist. They affect people's everyday lives. Who knows if they are "created" by something larger and more powerful or not?[1] The powerful or beautiful things that clearly exist seem to be worth worshiping to some people.

My question is, why worship anything, as opposed to trying to understand it?  :?
 1. And once you go there, why stop? Logically you can ask who created the more powerful thing? And who created that more powerful thing?

In this you have thrown out that Wiccans in fact believe there IS a creator. If everyone agreed we would all be Wiccan.

So while you, the wiccan and I agree there is a moon. You, the wiccan, and I all disagree on how it got there.
 Two of us agree it was created in some way. The wiccan knowing of the creator worships the moon. I knowing of the moon, worship the creator.
My question for the Wiccan is why?

I think you missed the gist of my post.

Yes, we all agree there is a moon. Yes, some people (with no evidence) have decided that it was created by powerful beings of some sort. (Then they spend time and energy trying to figure out stuff about the powerful beings, instead of trying to figure out the moon.) Yes, some of these people worship the moon itself, others worship the powerful being they believe created the moon.[2]

Some people worship nature because it is clearly beautiful, scary, powerful, and real. Some people worship invisible magical beings because they have been told that they are beautiful, scary, powerful, and real. But neither group can explain, with evidence that is convincing, why anything needs to be worshiped at all.

Worship of nature or invisible, magical beings does not affect reality in any way and makes no sense without a lot of cultural conditioning. If any religion worked in the real world, then there would be only that one religion. It would make immediate sense to everyone, regardless of culture, and everyone on the planet would be members. Instead you have to make up reasons why there are thousands of different competing religions--equally implausible and ineffective-- that all claim to be the truth, with new ones appearing every day.

You should not need missionaries going around telling other people about your religion. If it is the one that works and makes perfect sense, they would already know. You should not need special sacred books full of implausible stories--everyone would already believe. Just like everyone believes in the moon without being told by others.
 2. Others, and I include myself in this category, would rather try to understand the moon, and maybe build a rocket to go visit it. No worship or magical beings needed. 

It's spiritual warfare.
Pretend for a moment there is A God who wants you to come to Him. There is also an evil who wants nothing more than to stop you from finding God. He also happens to be the father of lies. He better have a plan, right? Would say, for example, Islam not be the perfect lie? To make you think you are good yet all the while not even close to God. Satin perverts even religion. This is the main reason I study a bit of all religions. Find and expose the common lie.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 06:03:36 AM by Anfauglir »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2013, 11:19:03 AM »
As for Hell call your crime treason against The king of Kings.

Well, *I* didn't vote for 'im!

Quote
As for Heaven, God is there, and Millions of bible thumpin' Jesus freaks. Nothing to do but worship, sing praise, and give Glory to our God for eternity. I ask you is it a place you want to be anyway?

Heck, no!  I'd rather be brewing mead in Valhalla, or wandering the universe learning new musical instruments on various planets and jamming with the locals.

Or petting pussycats.  (nods to Bastet)

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Maybe there in is the Justice. Don't reject the king and then get mad cause you can't live in His kingdom.

I'm not mad about not living in Heaven.  I'm furious about the only other option that Christians typically speak of, which is an eternity in hell.  Seriously?  Your god is so fucking binary and anal that it can't think of a kinder, gentler fate for people who don't want to debase themselves by letting Jesus die in their place?  Sick, sick, sick.

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This will shock you but you live in a fallen wicked world.

Bullshit.

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You ask for utopia and mock the one who would give it? Who do you think you are to even question God and His motives? Who are you that demands God to move?

I am what I am, and your god is powerless to stop Me from mocking, questioning, demanding and generally behaving in a reasonable manner to an unreasonable mythological asswipe.

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If you could even grasp what it means to be the sovereign God of All, you would declare With Me... I am not worthy of you O Lord. I deserve Hell. I deserve justice. By the Blood of Christ I am made righteous. Not because I deserve to be, But because He loves me

That's disgusting.  If you think you  or anyone else deserves eternal torture, then Christianity has destroyed your common sense and your humanity.  Why would I *ever* want to become like you?
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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2013, 11:45:33 AM »
*Snip*

This is the main reason I study a bit of all religions. Find and expose the common lie.

"There is a god, and it cares what you do."

I found it for you!


I'm not kidding either. I spent some time looking at various religions and seeing what they had to offer and what they wanted from me. It turns out all they offered was bad philosophy, and all they asked for was my soul[1].
 1. I'm using the term soul in a figurative context. To stand in for my moral integrity, individuality and other such things
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2013, 12:12:22 PM »
Why do pagens choose to worship "gods" such as friya (I think I spelled that right) who, in their own mithology, was killed in a battle of the gods?
I don't know. It's absolute madness, isn't it!? It's as bad as Christians worshipping that man who was executed by crucifixion.

Worshipping dead gods, eh? Who'd have thought it... There's some weird people out there...

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pagens wrong, pagans right.
mithology wrong, mythology right
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2013, 08:50:40 PM »
seriously... I type in a message I hit preview check it over and hit post and end up with a blank response!? I would gibe up if i didn't know you would enjoy that... lol (that's a joke)
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2013, 10:32:51 PM »
harbinger,

at your earliest convenience, please go to the tutorial for using the quote function and learn to quote better.  there is a link in my sig below.  It will help your posts be more readily understood.

Thanks.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 04:59:39 PM »
now that's funny.... haha
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 05:01:29 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 01:55:23 AM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.
 
Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2014, 05:21:22 PM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.
 
Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...

Well, you see, harbinger, that is why I prefer secular laws created by actual human beings. Even the most whacked out dictator only punishes people for actually committing a crime, even if the crime is some silly made up crap. Not just for being born. I don't want to be punished just for being born. I want to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Call me crazy, but that's just how I roll.[1]

There is no fairness or justice in assuming that a newborn baby, who has never even had a coherent idea about right and wrong, is guilty of anything. Likewise, a toddler, a teenager or an adult who has only been a normal human being is not guilty of anything. Certainly not supremely guilty of anything that would merit eternal damnation or some other horrific over-the-top punishment. Not even a serial killer, a child molester or an evil dictator deserves to be punished constantly, forever, without letup.

The original sin story, like the story of Pandora, or the Hindu cycles of reincarnation, or of someone stealing fire or wisdom from the gods are all attempts to explain why sh!t happens to people for no apparent reason. None of them have any basis in fact. Sometimes sh!t just happens to people for no apparent reason. That does not mean we are guilty of something before we are born. 

It seems absurd that I would have to say something this obvious, but religion sometimes does strange things to people's reasoning faculties.
 1. And in any area of life beside the religious, that's how you roll, too. Unless you are one of those people who goes to the police and confesses to crimes you did not commit....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 09:24:55 AM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.
 
Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...

Well, you see, harbinger, that is why I prefer secular laws created by actual human beings. Even the most whacked out dictator only punishes people for actually committing a crime, even if the crime is some silly made up crap. Not just for being born. I don't want to be punished just for being born. I want to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Call me crazy, but that's just how I roll.[1]

There is no fairness or justice in assuming that a newborn baby, who has never even had a coherent idea about right and wrong, is guilty of anything. Likewise, a toddler, a teenager or an adult who has only been a normal human being is not guilty of anything. Certainly not supremely guilty of anything that would merit eternal damnation or some other horrific over-the-top punishment. Not even a serial killer, a child molester or an evil dictator deserves to be punished constantly, forever, without letup.

The original sin story, like the story of Pandora, or the Hindu cycles of reincarnation, or of someone stealing fire or wisdom from the gods are all attempts to explain why sh!t happens to people for no apparent reason. None of them have any basis in fact. Sometimes sh!t just happens to people for no apparent reason. That does not mean we are guilty of something before we are born. 

It seems absurd that I would have to say something this obvious, but religion sometimes does strange things to people's reasoning faculties.
 1. And in any area of life beside the religious, that's how you roll, too. Unless you are one of those people who goes to the police and confesses to crimes you did not commit....

Where your argument breaks down.. bon condemned or not You will break the law. I'll bet you even do it daily.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline kcrady

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 10:35:35 AM »
why do wiccans choose to worship the created things rather than the creator of those things?

First of all, Harbinger, I would like you to notice how your question is loaded with the presuppositions of your religion, which Wiccans and others may not share.   Your question assumes "the" creator, singular, whereas other religions may have a plural agency of creation (a pantheon of gods and goddesses, a Primordial Couple, or whatever), or they may have an emergent/evolutionary viewpoint, in which there was never "a" capital-C "Creator" sitting somewhere with drafting calipers in "his" hands drawing up the plans for the hydrogen molecule.

Next, by "worship" they may not mean the same thing as you do. 

Next, your question assumes that there is a deep metaphysical opposition between the Divine (however defined) and "created things."  That's a tenet of your religion, where Yahweh is at war with his own creation.[1]  Other religions such as Wicca, don't share that viewpoint.  Try to imagine for a moment, that there is no such thing as a Creator Vs. Created Mortal Kombat Cage Match...that the Divine Creative Agency (which may be something very different from what you think it is) could be immanent (that is, metaphysically present) within the natural order.  From that perspective, your question sounds rather odd.  "What do you mean?  We honor the Goddess and the God by honoring Their manifestations in the natural world!"

Your concept of "creator-created" is like a potter that makes a pot, finishes it, sets it aside, and then later decides he wants to smash the whole thing while salvaging a few of the better pieces to use as jewelry.  He and his creation are separate, and he actually hates most of it.  So of course he would be furious with anyone who admired the pot instead of admiring him!  The pot is his enemy

As I understand Wiccans, they see it more like an actress portraying a character on stage.  Since she's an amazing actress, she does a brilliant job of being that character.  When one is sitting in the audience in awe of the performance, one is looking at the character--but you're also seeing the actress!  She's right there!  And when you leap to your feet to applaud the performance, the actress isn't jealous of the character--that doesn't even make sense.  She understands that she's being applauded because she did such a brilliant job of being the character.  In like manner, when a Wiccan adores the Goddess in the Moon, or the God in the Sun, the notion that their deities might feel cheated or jealous is ridiculous, if not completely alien. 

Why do pagens choose to worship "gods" such as friya (I think I spelled that right) who, in their own mithology, was killed in a battle of the gods?

I know, right?  What kind of idiot would ever worship a "god" that can die?  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!  If they were smart, they'd accept that Jesus died for their...oh...wait.

That's one of the funny things about gods and goddesses.  Dying never seems to represent much of a problem for them. 
 1. And after thousands of years, hasn't won yet.  Hmmmm....
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 10:38:57 AM by kcrady »
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2014, 11:24:00 AM »
I honestly seek to understand the Wicca mindset.

I have to wonder, do you really?  Are you even able to try?  In order to have a decent go at understanding someone else's mindset, you have to climb out of your own for a bit, flex those mirror neurons, and try to climb into theirs.  But you seem to believe that having a mindset different from your own represents "treason against the King of Kings" for which infinite, boundlessly sadistic punishment is deserved.  You're not allowed to try and understand the Wiccan mindset, are you? 

If you truly understood it, you'd understand why someone could actually be a Wiccan, exactly how and why they could find truth and beauty and good in it, and perhaps most importantly--why they wouldn't worship your god or think your religion is true.  Thinking outside the box is dangerous shit, man!  There's a reason people don't do it very often!

So now you've got a choice.  You can decide to continue huddling in the box you're in, gratefully consuming the "spiritual food" your pastor or the author of your favorite Bible commentary shoves through the slit, and thanking Jesus for taking that stinky bucket away from time to time...or you can realize that you've got the key to the box and can unlock it at any time, that you can crack open the creaking door of your mind and have a look outside...[1]
 1. Hat-tip to Nogodsforme @ #25.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2014, 12:36:29 PM »
now that's funny.... haha

No. It is not a joke.  Please go do it, now. 
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2014, 01:16:21 PM »
As for Hell call your crime treason against The king of Kings. As for Heaven, God is there, and Millions of bible thumpin' Jesus freaks. Nothing to do but worship, sing praise, and give Glory to our God for eternity.

Celestial North Korea.  Got it.  Question for you though: how exactly is it, that you have "glory" to give to this god of yours, "glory" he apparently doesn't already have, which he needs so badly that, if it's not forthcoming, he'll lash out at you with all of the violence at his command?  How is it even possible for an omni-everything Creator Godtm to need anything, much less need it so bad he acts like a meth addict being denied a fix?

Another question for you: Hanging out with a bunch of Bible thumpin' Jesus freaks, worshiping, singing praise, and giving glory to your god--you do that for an hour, maybe two, every Sunday.  Have you ever looked at your watch when the pastor's sermon went a little long, or when the music minister called for "one more song," fidgeting in your pew and thinking about breakfast or watching the game?  Now imagine that church service going on For.  Ever.  Is that a place you want to be?

This will shock you but you live in a fallen wicked world. Most of which rejects God. Most that profess God are false, liers, and wicked. Christian in name only. Evil is a product of the fallen (not created) nature of man.

How is this not a colossal, cosmic failure on Yahweh's part?  Since Yahweh is (according to you) very, very mad at all of this "fallen" stuff, it follows that he did not want things this way.  Yet, they are this way and he is not merely frustrated and angry, but he will be frustrated and angry for eternity.  No matter how long he works the bellows, no matter how hard he treads on the winepress of his wrath crushing the souls of the damned, there will never be a point at which he can say "Their misery has now equaled mine.  Justice has been served, and it is time to stop."  There will be no point at which he can relax, allow the fires to go out, and say, "It is finished."  He.  Will.  Never.  Have.  Peace.    

If your story is correct, Yahweh is necessarily the most miserable, angry, frustrated, and hopeless being in all of existence.  One could almost pity him, if he wasn't such a sadistic megalomaniac.

If you could even grasp what it means to be the sovereign God of All,

I submit to you that you have no conception or grasp of what it would actually mean to be a sovereign God of All.  Such an entity would not be capable of the failures you attribute to him.  "Wrath" would be an alien emotion, because "wrath" is a reaction to things not going one's way, and a truly "sovereign God of All" would not be metaphysically capable of having that experience.  Of course, you can't imagine an entity a billion times more intelligent, capable, enlightened, and so on than yourself, much less that such an entity might have a conception of greatness that utterly transcends your vision of a human king or dictator with some glowy special effects, plus a really nasty dungeon that nobody ever escapes.

I find it fascinating how people like you say you want to praise and "magnify" and glorify the Creator of the Cosmos, yet your picture of "him" is so very, very small, so simplistic in its needs and desires, so very human.  And not even the best kind of human.  Your concept of the Divine is no Gandhi, no Martin Luther King, no Einstein, not even a Themistocles.  Rather, his behavior maps most closely to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan, and Vlad the Impaler--the people usually listed as the worst of us, the most "fallen," if you want to use that terminology. 

When we use the phrase "to play God," notice how we do not use it as a way to denote doing something utterly magnificent and sublime, like composing a great symphony or walking on the moon, or radically improving the lives of a billion poor and suffering people.  No, we use it to refer to doing something frightening or even atrocious, without any accountability or moral restraint.

Fascinating, don't you think?  Have  you ever wondered why that might be?

From what you've said, it sounds like your concept of "God" is pretty much like this:



"Holy---  He's freakin' huuuuge!  Do you see how he totally dwarfs that teeny little human at his feet?  Fear and obey!  FEAR AND OBEYYYYY!"

Right?

And yet, if we were to set him and his boxy throne next to our Sun--a perfectly ordinary star on the small end of the range of stellar size--he would utterly, completely disappear.  As an object in the Solar System, he wouldn't even qualify as a rounding error.  Compared to all that stuff in the Hubble Deep Field?  He might as well not exist at all!

Of course, you may try to dial him up and say, "Oh no, he created the Hubble Deep Field!  He's way bigger than all that!"  Problem is, though, the size and power-level he's pictured there is about as big as he can get and still have human obedience be of any use to him.  Notice the similarity of scale between that picture, and the statues of Ramses II at Abu Simbel:


I don't think that's entirely a coincidence.  That's about as big as we can dial up a Really Big King before we cease being grasshoppers before him and start becoming bacteria or atoms or protons or quarks, and the whole notion that human obedience and praises remain noticeable--much less of primary importance--to him becomes patently ridiculous.  In other words, in order for you to imagine "God" as a really big, extra-special alpha human, "he" can't be dialed up too far beyond the human size and power class.[1]  If you scale him up too much, he starts becoming alien, and the human power-pyramid you want to enthrone him on ceases to have meaning or value for him.  If the school bully can create a whole galaxy or a billion dollars with a snap of his fingers, why would he still want your lunch money?

Nutshell: The people who profess most loudly that they love, and adore, and worship an infinitely amazing, morally and intellectually perfect Creator of All Things, are the ones who, if such an entity actually existed, would blaspheme it the most.  They are the ones who never actually even sit down, take some time, and really try to think about what a real All-Sovereign Creator of A Hundred Billion Galaxies would realistically be like.
 1. And notice also how in the Bible, he's not very bright.  Clever creatures like a talking serpent, or a veteran camel-trader like Abraham routinely run rings around him.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2014, 02:31:11 PM »
It's spiritual warfare.

"Warfare" presupposes that the outcome of battle is in doubt.  Otherwise the weaker side would know it's the weaker side, and use hit-and-fade tactics--or if even that has no chance of success, either surrender or accept death.  Do you think that the outcome of the battle is in doubt?

Pretend for a moment there is A God who wants you to come to Him.

Maybe you can help me out here.  Why would this god want me to come to him?  What does he gain from it?  What can my worshipful obedience provide for him that he can't provide for himself?

There is also an evil who wants nothing more than to stop you from finding God.

Why would this evil want to do this?  What does he gain?

He also happens to be the father of lies.

How do you know this?  From a book produced by your Celestial King's propaganda ministry?  Maybe it's telling the truth, but how do you know?  Aren't you just like somebody reading Pravda and saying, "Well, I guess America must really be an awful hell-hole, and this here Worker's Paradise really is the perfect society!  It says so right here!"

He better have a plan, right?

Sure, but...doesn't "having a plan" kinda presuppose understanding the situation, one's own goals, the available means, etc., and having a reasonable expectation that your plan could succeed?  Let's say you want to build a tower to the Moon, and you've got a bag of marshmallows to do it with.  Isn't it safe to say that you would never actually "have a plan" and try to carry it out?  That you'd realize that building a tower to the moon with a bag of marshmallows isn't within the range of possibility for you, and come up with something better to do with the marshmallows, like maybe eat them?

So how do you think this "evil" you're talking about anticipates that convincing lots of people to believe in Islam or Wicca or whatever can actually help him win?  Keep in mind that (according to your story) he, unlike you, has actually lived in Heaven and spent time in the direct, personal presence of the god he aims to defeat, knowing him face-to-face.  He knows, by direct experience, exactly how powerful Yawheh is.  All you've got is reading about Yahweh in a book.

Would say, for example, Islam not be the perfect lie? To make you think you are good yet all the while not even close to God.

So, the bad guy writes a "holy book" and starts a religion to lead people away from the truth?

Quote
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

--Thomas Paine (emphasis added)

Yup, sounds like a plan!

Satin perverts even religion.

Mmmm, Satin!  It's soooooo sooooft, and shiiiiiny! ;)

you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.

Right, so let me get this straight: This satin-bedecked "Father of Lies" fellow is running around, whispering in the ears of billions of people to try to convince them to believe in other religions, because that will keep them from "coming to" Yahweh, and frustrate Yahweh's desire that they do so.  Except that, per Romans 9:13, Yahweh doesn't want those people to "come to" him, and has in fact predestined that they won't before they were ever born.  And the "Father of Lies," having lived cheek to jowl with Yahweh in Heaven for some period of time as his holiest Angel, knows this. 

So why would the "Father of Lies" bother going to all that work?  He'd already know that nothing he did could change the number of Elect and Damned by so much as one, assuming he'd even want to do so for some reason.  He'd already know that if he decided to just lay around on the beach or surf the Orion Nebula, that Yahweh would make up all the false religions for him:

Quote
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

--2 Thessalonians 11-12

So, why?  Why would Yahweh or the Prince of Satiny Shimmer want to play those particular roles in this little drama?  Why would either pretend that the beliefs of human beings actually matter and pretend to be fighting over them?  What's the point?


It fascinates me that this little tale Harbinger presents for us is arguably the most powerful mind-control device ever invented by the human species, has raised both armies and cathedrals over a course of millennia...yet it falls apart even as a story, as soon as you look at it with the teeniest bit of critical scrutiny.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 02:35:26 PM by kcrady »
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2014, 09:07:59 PM »
sure I'm allowed to understand everything and anything.. understand is not the same as agree mind you. Not that I'm not allowed to agree, I just don't.

I know and understand all different kinds of religion. As my last post says the wiccan is by far not the only one I have sat down with the intent to understand. The Bible doesn't tell us to make a convert rather teach and preach the word of God and the good news of Christ.

my pastor and I have discussed a number of issues we don't agree on and I never use commentary. That's just yet another mans ideas. I let the bible tell me what the Bible says. Proper Hermeneutics is my guide. I may well be the most "out of the box" Christian you ever met. especially if this is your criteria for determining if one is "in a box" don't assume so much.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:12:17 PM by harbinger77 »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2014, 10:39:14 PM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.
 
Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...

Well, you see, harbinger, that is why I prefer secular laws created by actual human beings. Even the most whacked out dictator only punishes people for actually committing a crime, even if the crime is some silly made up crap. Not just for being born. I don't want to be punished just for being born. I want to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Call me crazy, but that's just how I roll.[1]

There is no fairness or justice in assuming that a newborn baby, who has never even had a coherent idea about right and wrong, is guilty of anything. Likewise, a toddler, a teenager or an adult who has only been a normal human being is not guilty of anything. Certainly not supremely guilty of anything that would merit eternal damnation or some other horrific over-the-top punishment. Not even a serial killer, a child molester or an evil dictator deserves to be punished constantly, forever, without letup.

The original sin story, like the story of Pandora, or the Hindu cycles of reincarnation, or of someone stealing fire or wisdom from the gods are all attempts to explain why sh!t happens to people for no apparent reason. None of them have any basis in fact. Sometimes sh!t just happens to people for no apparent reason. That does not mean we are guilty of something before we are born. 

It seems absurd that I would have to say something this obvious, but religion sometimes does strange things to people's reasoning faculties.
 1. And in any area of life beside the religious, that's how you roll, too. Unless you are one of those people who goes to the police and confesses to crimes you did not commit....

Where your argument breaks down.. bon condemned or not You will break the law. I'll bet you even do it daily.

Why create a system where everyone is doomed to fail, just by being human? This does not seem to be a loving action-- more the action of a psychopath. This is like being born inside a maze where every step towards the exit is a trapdoor that drops you into an even more complex maze. Can you imagine a better way to drive someone into hopeless despair-- or completely batsh!t?

Again, it is like the Shawshank Redemption movie with the evil, manipulative prison warden. Add in god's sadistic prison guard, Satan, to do the dirty work and, if needed, take the fall (heh!) and you have a complete concentration camp picture.

What kind of a god would set up a universe with laws that everyone is destined to break constantly, no matter what they do? Then, condemning them all to either eternal punishment--"You win a trip... a vacation getaway straight to hell!" Or Monty God offers up Door Number Two, the chance, for a lucky few, to gain "forgiveness" through some convoluted Orwellian means involving being grateful, having no self-respect, agreeing to worship the prison warden, and accepting impossible stories as true. But you have to take it all on faith, no guarantees, impossible to double check, no way to know for sure if you have it right.

Gee, thanks, Loki. Because this is the work of a trickster. Luckily for humanity, none of is it real. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2014, 11:11:46 PM »
why do wiccans choose to worship the created things rather than the creator of those things?

First of all, Harbinger, I would like you to notice how your question is loaded with the presuppositions of your religion, which Wiccans and others may not share.   Your question assumes "the" creator, singular, whereas other religions may have a plural agency of creation (a pantheon of gods and goddesses, a Primordial Couple, or whatever), or they may have an emergent/evolutionary viewpoint, in which there was never "a" capital-C "Creator" sitting somewhere with drafting calipers in "his" hands drawing up the plans for the hydrogen molecule.

Next, by "worship" they may not mean the same thing as you do. 

Next, your question assumes that there is a deep metaphysical opposition between the Divine (however defined) and "created things."  That's a tenet of your religion, where Yahweh is at war with his own creation.[1]  Other religions such as Wicca, don't share that viewpoint.  Try to imagine for a moment, that there is no such thing as a Creator Vs. Created Mortal Kombat Cage Match...that the Divine Creative Agency (which may be something very different from what you think it is) could be immanent (that is, metaphysically present) within the natural order.  From that perspective, your question sounds rather odd.  "What do you mean?  We honor the Goddess and the God by honoring Their manifestations in the natural world!"

Your concept of "creator-created" is like a potter that makes a pot, finishes it, sets it aside, and then later decides he wants to smash the whole thing while salvaging a few of the better pieces to use as jewelry.  He and his creation are separate, and he actually hates most of it.  So of course he would be furious with anyone who admired the pot instead of admiring him!  The pot is his enemy

As I understand Wiccans, they see it more like an actress portraying a character on stage.  Since she's an amazing actress, she does a brilliant job of being that character.  When one is sitting in the audience in awe of the performance, one is looking at the character--but you're also seeing the actress!  She's right there!  And when you leap to your feet to applaud the performance, the actress isn't jealous of the character--that doesn't even make sense.  She understands that she's being applauded because she did such a brilliant job of being the character.  In like manner, when a Wiccan adores the Goddess in the Moon, or the God in the Sun, the notion that their deities might feel cheated or jealous is ridiculous, if not completely alien. 

Why do pagens choose to worship "gods" such as friya (I think I spelled that right) who, in their own mithology, was killed in a battle of the gods?

I know, right?  What kind of idiot would ever worship a "god" that can die?  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!  If they were smart, they'd accept that Jesus died for their...oh...wait.

That's one of the funny things about gods and goddesses.  Dying never seems to represent much of a problem for them.
 1. And after thousands of years, hasn't won yet.  Hmmmm....

since this post I have sat down with a wiccan friend of mine. I have to say while not being 100% wrong you are wrong to suggest there are any kinds of doctrine at all. There are two "capital C Creator gods but as for the one you worship you get to choose your own from a whole pantheon. There are no rules that's the very reason people like it. The closest thing you may find is the wiccan long rede if you want to know about wiccan doctrine.

Jesus gave his life. whike his body was he was in sheol freeing his people and telling the good news. He NEVER ceased to exist. He IS, WAS, and WILL BE.

The wiccan mother dies every winter after aging all year.
the god i mentioned is a norse god who either did or will die in ragnorak
Sounds like a huge gap to me.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 11:18:23 PM »
Gee, thanks, Loki. Because this is the work of a trickster. Luckily for humanity, none of is it real. :P

Nope, not Loki -- My uncle usually[1] fixes His mistakes (even if Thor and Auntie Freyja and Dad have to make Him do it).

Speaking as a trickster goddess, there's always a lesson of some sort hidden in the prank.  I'm not sure Christianity qualifies in this case.
 1. Unfortunately He couldn't undo the incident that resulted in Balder's death.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:22:33 PM by Astreja »
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2014, 12:09:50 AM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law
I never made the all loving claim. God is love to all christians who are his people. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.
 
Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...

Well, you see, harbinger, that is why I prefer secular laws created by actual human beings. Even the most whacked out dictator only punishes people for actually committing a crime, even if the crime is some silly made up crap. Not just for being born. I don't want to be punished just for being born. I want to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Call me crazy, but that's just how I roll.[1]

There is no fairness or justice in assuming that a newborn baby, who has never even had a coherent idea about right and wrong, is guilty of anything. Likewise, a toddler, a teenager or an adult who has only been a normal human being is not guilty of anything. Certainly not supremely guilty of anything that would merit eternal damnation or some other horrific over-the-top punishment. Not even a serial killer, a child molester or an evil dictator deserves to be punished constantly, forever, without letup.

The original sin story, like the story of Pandora, or the Hindu cycles of reincarnation, or of someone stealing fire or wisdom from the gods are all attempts to explain why sh!t happens to people for no apparent reason. None of them have any basis in fact. Sometimes sh!t just happens to people for no apparent reason. That does not mean we are guilty of something before we are born. 

It seems absurd that I would have to say something this obvious, but religion sometimes does strange things to people's reasoning faculties.
 1. And in any area of life beside the religious, that's how you roll, too. Unless you are one of those people who goes to the police and confesses to crimes you did not commit....

Where your argument breaks down.. bon condemned or not You will break the law. I'll bet you even do it daily.

Why create a system where everyone is doomed to fail, just by being human? This does not seem to be a loving action-- more the action of a psychopath. This is like being born inside a maze where every step towards the exit is a trapdoor that drops you into an even more complex maze. Can you imagine a better way to drive someone into hopeless despair-- or completely batsh!t?

Again, it is like the Shawshank Redemption movie with the evil, manipulative prison warden. Add in god's sadistic prison guard, Satan, to do the dirty work and, if needed, take the fall (heh!) and you have a complete concentration camp picture.

What kind of a god would set up a universe with laws that everyone is destined to break constantly, no matter what they do? Then, condemning them all to either eternal punishment--"You win a trip... a vacation getaway straight to hell!" Or Monty God offers up Door Number Two, the chance, for a lucky few, to gain "forgiveness" through some convoluted Orwellian means involving being grateful, having no self-respect, agreeing to worship the prison warden, and accepting impossible stories as true. But you have to take it all on faith, no guarantees, impossible to double check, no way to know for sure if you have it right.

Gee, thanks, Loki. Because this is the work of a trickster. Luckily for humanity, none of is it real. :P
That's what you fail to see. God didn't create the standard. He IS the standard. He is Holy And Righteous. To lower the standard would make him neither. In his justice he must crush you. In His Mercy He satisfied His own Justice by crushing His perfect son in your place. What you call His "wrath" is His Justice.

Everything else you have incorrectly represented here stems from this first misunderstanding.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2014, 12:22:03 AM »
God didn't create the standard. He IS the standard. He is Holy And Righteous. To lower the standard would make him neither. In his justice he must crush you. In His Mercy He satisfied His own Justice by crushing His perfect son in your place. What you call His "wrath" is His Justice.

Well, his "justice" simply isn't up to My standards.  Maybe if he studied hard and learned to type he could aspire to be a paralegal in My nephew Forseti's law firm in Asgard.  No f'ing way I'm letting him near My scales and sword, though.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2014, 10:11:01 AM »
That's what you fail to see. God didn't create the standard. He IS the standard.

huh?  god is the standard we are expected to live up to?  Yet, god created us infinitely inferior to that standard?  And you call that righteous and just? 

I don't see how we can even have a conversation. You say these things that not only do not add up, but make you sound mentally ill. 

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2014, 12:21:32 PM »
That's what you fail to see. God didn't create the standard. He IS the standard.

huh?  god is the standard we are expected to live up to?  Yet, god created us infinitely inferior to that standard?  And you call that righteous and just? 

I don't see how we can even have a conversation. You say these things that not only do not add up, but make you sound mentally ill.

You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin. Your question is Just how far did sin make us fall? what part does the free will of man play in this fall?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 12:25:18 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Boots

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2014, 03:22:29 PM »
You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin. Your question is Just how far did sin make us fall? what part does the free will of man play in this fall?

Man didn't HAVE free will before the fall.  Adam only knew the difference between good and evil after he ate the fruit.

FAIL
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2014, 03:45:02 PM »
You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen.

That is not a functional sentence.  You have not clearly communicated anything to me.

His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Same here.  Did you mean "too pure"?  If so, how is it that this supposedly omnipotent deity of yours is defeated by "sin"?  If you want to hide something from your god, cloak it with sin.  I guess that would negate omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. 

Of course, I do not take this literally.  You are speaking emotively, figuratively, not to express any kind of fact, but to describe how wonderful you think this idea is.  Please refrain from this.  It is preaching. 

Your question is Just how far did sin make us fall? what part does the free will of man play in this fall?

No.  That is not my question at all.  My question is "are you on medication, and if not, are your local authorities aware?"  Because you sound absolutely, balls-to-the-wall, barking mad.


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Offline Dante

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2014, 03:53:44 PM »
You and even this world are not what God created originally. After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

I ask yet another theist: Is there sin in heaven?

Quote
what part does the free will of man play in this fall?

I ask yet another theist: Is there free will in heaven?

Maybe someday I'll get an answer.

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2014, 05:34:22 PM »
It's spiritual warfare.
If your god is truly the omnipotent creator of the universe, how is this "spiritual war" still going on?

Quote from: harbinger77
Pretend
I can pretend many things.  Many, many, many, many, many things.  But what good does that do?  Rather than asking me to pretend something which just so happens to match what you already believe, how about you come up with some evidence to show that what you believe matches reality?

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for a moment there is A God who wants you to come to Him.There is also an evil who wants nothing more than to stop you from finding God. He also happens to be the father of lies.  He better have a plan, right? Would say, for example, Islam not be the perfect lie? To make you think you are good yet all the while not even close to God. Satin perverts even religion. This is the main reason I study a bit of all religions. Find and expose the common lie.
Seems to me you haven't applied the same logic to your own religion, or even really thought it through.  So, you have this Satan, this father of lies, who wants nothing more than to stop you from finding God.  Well, it seems to me that the most effective way to keep you from finding God would be to make you think you'd already found him, especially if you didn't have any way to verify that it actually was him.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2014, 03:22:42 AM »
After sin God separated himself from the creation because it was fallen. His eyes are to pure to even look upon sin.

Okay. 

So any time I hear a tale like "I was a dreadful sinner, as low as I could go.  Then one day I happened into a church, and felt god speak to me, and my life was changed" I should tell them they are deluded, or lying? 

Because a story like that could NEVER happen if your god so removes hmiself from sin he can't even look on it or bear to be around it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why I decided to become a Wiccan
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2014, 01:40:20 PM »
That's what you fail to see. God didn't create the standard. He IS the standard. He is Holy And Righteous. To lower the standard would make him neither.
Wait...there is a standard of 'holy' and 'righteous' that exists outside of god?

Does god have a god that he aspires towards or something?  Do you have access to some cosmic manual that has a checklist of what is 'holy' and 'righteous', and do you compare that checklist to god's characteristics and behavior and say 'yup'?

I don't get it.  If god = the standard, then whatever god does is holy and righteous.  You seem to be...judging and evaluating god against some other standard.

Quote
In his justice he must crush you. In His Mercy He satisfied His own Justice by crushing His perfect son in your place. What you call His "wrath" is His Justice.
<battered wife syndrome>What she calls 'beatings' and 'emotional torment' is his love.</battered wife syndrome>

Your concepts of 'justice' and 'love' are twisted.  Really and truly.  In his justice he must crush you...for crying out loud you seriously don't see how messed up that sounds?

P.S.
Why did you capitalize the word 'mercy' in that post?
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