Author Topic: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself  (Read 2927 times)

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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2013, 02:57:52 AM »
"Nothing" in cosmology is quantifiable, don't confuse it with the colloquial nothing.

The tune has not changed, you just think it has because I'm not agreeing with your assertions.

You can quantify nothing? Are you sure you understand what nothing means? it means that not even gravity exists. Kaku didn't explain where gravity came from. He might believe it has "always existed".......imagine that.........the irony....
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2013, 02:59:28 AM »
The thing is, 75% of the population will never believe in the Easter Bunny because nobody has experiences with the Easter Bunny.

But, what if they did? Or is that too difficult a question for you?

Then the Easter Bunny would be real. Only real things can produce real results.

This is a staggeringly unsound conclusion.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2013, 03:00:04 AM »
"Nothing" in cosmology is quantifiable, don't confuse it with the colloquial nothing.

The tune has not changed, you just think it has because I'm not agreeing with your assertions.

You can quantify nothing? Are you sure you understand what nothing means? it means that not even gravity exists. Kaku didn't explain where gravity came from. He might believe it has "always existed".......imagine that.........the irony....

Do some reading, and don't forget to read the citations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Number_of_dimensions
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2013, 03:01:39 AM »
"Nothing" in cosmology is quantifiable, don't confuse it with the colloquial nothing.

The tune has not changed, you just think it has because I'm not agreeing with your assertions.

You can quantify nothing? Are you sure you understand what nothing means? it means that not even gravity exists. Kaku didn't explain where gravity came from. He might believe it has "always existed".......imagine that.........the irony....

Laws of physics didn't exist until several seconds after the big bang occurred started, none of the "laws" did.

EDIT:
Meant to edit my previous post oops :x

EDIT2:
Clarification, the Big Bang is still going on.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 03:04:21 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #178 on: November 23, 2013, 03:05:13 AM »
It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

Not when it comes to things that existed before any minds were around. There's no possible way to claim what could exist when there's no minds around to describe it.

Read My statement again, Skeptic.  Whatever this reality is at its base, it is functional and consistent.  As much as it would be nice to know the origins of the current universe, and to know what existed before it, that particular gap in our knowledge does not appear to be having a deleterious effect on the average human being's life.  I say again:  It doesn't need to be proven.

Quote
This is a purely empirical claim and it leads to God One Above All...

FTFY.   ;D
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #179 on: November 23, 2013, 03:28:24 AM »
EDIT2:
Clarification, the Big Bang is still going on.

Já, that's right...

(At this point, Springy G's eyes go slightly glassy as She mentally wanders out to the outer fringe of a zone captured in the Hubble Deep Space Field.  She winces slightly, trying to crunch multidimensional data in Her head because She can't find Her favourite pencil under all the mess on the desk.)

...Let's see.  At t=0, everything is at coordinates 0,0,0...0 (assuming as many dimensions as one would like).  A fraction of a second later, they've diverged in all directions.  Keep going for over 14 billion years.

Now, let's pull a little Tralfamadorian schtick and try to see all existing points of matter/energy in all their current and previous locations simultaneously --

(As the vision floods Her brain, the Loose Cannon of the Æsir turns five shades of pale and slumps in Her chair, then shakes off the vision.)  Ah, screw it -- I'll be late for the party.


Off to Gallifrey; don't wait up.  8)
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #180 on: November 23, 2013, 04:26:30 AM »
So the twelfth doctor has been revealed!
Perhaps you could pop back to about 2000 years ago and settle a few debates once and for all ;)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #181 on: November 23, 2013, 06:59:22 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Yes, I watched the whole video. A lot of unsupported assertions and statements of "perhaps" a lot.

How is that science?

You're correct.  THAT is religion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Dante

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #182 on: November 23, 2013, 09:51:54 AM »
The thing is, 75% of the population will never believe in the Easter Bunny because nobody has experiences with the Easter Bunny.

But, what if they did? Or is that too difficult a question for you?

Then the Easter Bunny would be real. Only real things can produce real results.

Wow. Now you're so stupid you're not even entertaining.

Please, never, ever ever ever, breed.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #183 on: November 23, 2013, 09:58:59 AM »
You're correct.  THAT is religion.
It's speculative, but that doesn't make it religion.  The difference between science and religion is that religion is content to assume that something is true without further testing; science, on the other hand, seeks to test ideas out (even speculative, fanciful ones) and uses evidence to sort between them.  But the first part of the process is always to come up with an idea to test.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #184 on: November 23, 2013, 10:40:34 AM »
You're correct.  THAT is religion.
It's speculative, but that doesn't make it religion.  The difference between science and religion is that religion is content to assume that something is true without further testing; science, on the other hand, seeks to test ideas out (even speculative, fanciful ones) and uses evidence to sort between them.  But the first part of the process is always to come up with an idea to test.
I believe he was saying that unsupported assertions and statements are religion... to which hed be correct

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #185 on: November 23, 2013, 11:27:46 AM »
I believe he was saying that unsupported assertions and statements are religion... to which hed be correct
Unsupported assertions and statements are speculation.  Religion is when one believes in speculation despite the lack of support for it.

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #186 on: November 23, 2013, 11:59:16 AM »

I have answered the "WWGHA?" question.
I have answered the problem of evil.
I have refuted many atheistic arguments.


No, all you've done is make irrational attempts. Sorry, you are bearing false witness again.

Btw, there are no "atheistic arguments". There are rationale/irrational arguments and your argument doesn't win by default just b/c you say so.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online median

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #187 on: November 23, 2013, 12:09:49 PM »
It seems you are trying very hard to refute me, Median.

I never said any of my arguments "prove" anything. I am just giving you guys my perspective on things. In fact, I have stated that I can't empirically prove God exists to you guys. He has to reveal Himself to you.

It is 100% proof to me, but 0% proof to you. This is why atheistic arguments can't change my mind.

The arguments you keep attempting to use are irrational and that hasn't changed. I don't care if you claim that you're not trying to "prove" anything. You're hear making bald empty assertions and backing them up with more empty assertions. So basically, you have nothing but "b/c I say so".

Now, evidence is by definition DEMONSTRABLE to others. You don't have any evidence and you don't get to try to change what evidence is. Again, all you have is hear-say/'I-say-so'. It's kind of funny that you've admitted that you can't demonstrate your beliefs as accurate and yet you continue to make ad hoc assertions about them as if they should carry some kind of weight. They don't.

Anyone can make a self-diagnosis of an alleged experience (based upon a presupposition). That does nothing but cater to your own biases and emotional wants. Your claims are contrary to rational thought (since all you do is make irrational arguments when rebutted about this 'experience') and there is no reason whatsoever to accept your claims. 1 Peter 3:15 tells you to reason with those who do not share your view. Does that mean make irrational arguments, b/c that is what you keep doing, and I've pointed out your fallacies on countless occasions.

The fact that you refuse to amend your position (i.e. - change your mind) in spite of ALL evidence to the contrary and ALL sound rebuttals is very clearly a demonstration that you do not care whether your beliefs are actually true (i.e. - you have a vested interest in defending them at all costs; aka - you are closed minded), and that you are dishonest, as you are willing to practice confirmation bias while pushing logically fallacious arguments in response to your theology being refuted. Is it any wonder why you aren't taken seriously?

Perhaps you should actually try to see it from someone else' perspective sometime. Many of us know yours but you don't see ours.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:19:31 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #188 on: November 23, 2013, 12:28:20 PM »

I said I can't prove it to you guys. But lots of things can't be proven, such as an external world existing outside of our minds.

If you have no sound reason for thinking there is a world outside of your mind then instead of just positing something else that you have no sound reason for you should admit that you have no sound reason for thinking that EITHER ARE REAL!

See how irrational you are? You cannot 'destroy' the external world of experience and then arbitrarily posit something else that would also be destroyed with it. "You assume external world. I assume God" is also a straw-man b/c you haven't demonstrated that anyone has assumed that. Have you read Kant's refutation yet? You haven't, have you? You just keep ASSERTED what we are assuming. It is also a false analogy to compare the external world of experience to an alleged 'God' thing (of which you have no cohesive evidence or rational justification).

YOUR FALLACIES, FALLACIES, FALLACIES....FAIL.






« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:30:18 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #189 on: November 23, 2013, 01:25:00 PM »
I said I can't prove it to you guys. But lots of things can't be proven, such as an external world existing outside of our minds.

When I stub my toe, I am, at that moment, pretty sure there is something outside of my mind.

If there isn't though, that kind of means that the bible doesn't exist, because it is outside our mind, and Jesus didn't exist, because he is outside our mind, and I don't exist, because I'm outside your mind.

Nor do you to me.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #190 on: November 23, 2013, 02:06:45 PM »

I said I can't prove it to you guys. But lots of things can't be proven, such as an external world existing outside of our minds.

If you have no sound reason for thinking there is a world outside of your mind then instead of just positing something else that you have no sound reason for you should admit that you have no sound reason for thinking that EITHER ARE REAL!

See how irrational you are? You cannot 'destroy' the external world of experience and then arbitrarily posit something else that would also be destroyed with it. "You assume external world. I assume God" is also a straw-man b/c you haven't demonstrated that anyone has assumed that. Have you read Kant's refutation yet? You haven't, have you? You just keep ASSERTED what we are assuming. It is also a false analogy to compare the external world of experience to an alleged 'God' thing (of which you have no cohesive evidence or rational justification).

YOUR FALLACIES, FALLACIES, FALLACIES....FAIL.
If the real world only existed in my mind I sure would not get up and go to work. The real world would be limitless. I can only jump so high,drive so fast,the world in my mind is so much more fun than the REAL world.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #191 on: November 23, 2013, 07:25:23 PM »
So the twelfth doctor has been revealed!
Perhaps you could pop back to about 2000 years ago and settle a few debates once and for all ;)

Tempting.  Very, very tempting.  But don't be surprised if I come back with a very confused but unsacrificed thirty-something Jewish guy with a few thorn scratches on his forehead.  Also expect an account of a Roman Legionnaire being bonked with a Clue-by-Four™ to appear in the history books.

In New Visigoth.  *shakes fist* Damn you, Grandfather Paradox!
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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #192 on: November 23, 2013, 10:24:30 PM »
Actually, while jdawg's analogy works in some cases, it still isn't really all that good.  The problem is that there's just so many Christian sects that nailing down a general analogy just doesn't work that well.

pun intended???
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #193 on: November 24, 2013, 12:10:07 AM »
Nope.  I would have gone for something lame if I had been trying to make a pun.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #194 on: November 24, 2013, 12:48:00 AM »
I know how to get rid of the solipsism problem.

Step 1 : become a Christian.

After you have become a Christian, you now believe in the Christian God, so you know the world, with 4 corners, exists.

Step 2: become an atheist again

Now, you are back, being a sane person, but you now know that the universe really exists, so you can get on with doing scientific experiments.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #195 on: November 24, 2013, 01:27:59 AM »
I know how to get rid of the solipsism problem.

Step 1 : become a Christian.

After you have become a Christian, you now believe in the Christian God, so you know the world, with 4 corners, exists.

Step 2: become an atheist again

Now, you are back, being a sane person, but you now know that the universe really exists, so you can get on with doing scientific experiments.

I like to think step 1 is unnecessary ;)
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #196 on: November 24, 2013, 02:59:35 AM »
If the real world only existed in my mind I sure would not get up and go to work. The real world would be limitless. I can only jump so high,drive so fast,the world in my mind is so much more fun than the REAL world.
[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism#Responses
If the world is in the mind of a solipsist, then why doesn't a perfect world exist? For the same reason that people are able to have nightmares even though they also come from the mind.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #197 on: November 24, 2013, 03:19:21 AM »
If the world is in the mind of a solipsist, then why doesn't a perfect world exist? For the same reason that people are able to have nightmares even though they also come from the mind.

But dreams go both ways.  If this world is only in the mind, why can't I fly, cast a Fireball spell, or instantly make Myself taller, thinner, younger, or even turn into a dragon?  I can easily imagine all of those things, but this pesky thing called Reality keeps getting in the way.  Apparently we "dream" in accordance with the laws of physics and other scientific principles, even ones we haven't deciphered yet.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #198 on: November 24, 2013, 08:05:17 AM »
  Also expect an account of a Roman Legionnaire being bonked with a Clue-by-Four™ to appear in the history books.
I had to read that a couple of times to get what you really meant- bonked is sometimes used here as a word for sex and I had also not heard of clue-by-four except for it being in your signature. You can imagine what scene I thought you meant at first. ;)
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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #199 on: November 24, 2013, 06:31:44 PM »


I have answered the "WWGHA?" question.
Yes, if you count nonsense.


I have answered the problem of evil.

Yes, if you count nonsense.


I have refuted many atheistic arguments.

Yes, if you count nonsense.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #200 on: November 24, 2013, 07:36:20 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism#Responses
If the world is in the mind of a solipsist, then why doesn't a perfect world exist? For the same reason that people are able to have nightmares even though they also come from the mind.

Yet merely ASSERTING a 'God' thing as an attempt to get you out of the idealism problem doesn't mean jack diddly squat. Anybody can just ASSERT anything they want to. Saying it is so doesn't make it so, sorry. And all your arbitrary assertions (aka - assumptions) do is showing how closed-minded and biased you are toward any view other than your own.

You are practicing confirmation bias and it really shows.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:38:04 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #201 on: November 25, 2013, 01:52:00 PM »
If this world is only in the mind, why can't I fly, cast a Fireball spell, or instantly make Myself taller, thinner, younger, or even turn into a dragon?

Clearly you haven't earned enough XP to hit level 5 (for Fly and Fireball).  Shapechange is a 9th level spell, you've got a LONG way to go for that one![/thread derailment]
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #202 on: November 25, 2013, 02:53:25 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism#Responses
If the world is in the mind of a solipsist, then why doesn't a perfect world exist? For the same reason that people are able to have nightmares even though they also come from the mind.

Yet merely ASSERTING a 'God' thing as an attempt to get you out of the idealism problem doesn't mean jack diddly squat. Anybody can just ASSERT anything they want to. Saying it is so doesn't make it so, sorry. And all your arbitrary assertions (aka - assumptions) do is showing how closed-minded and biased you are toward any view other than your own.

You are practicing confirmation bias and it really shows.

Yep, in fact, Skeptic: I assert that your "god" is actually an LGBT Member in full regalia, prove me wrong.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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