Author Topic: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself  (Read 3727 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #145 on: November 22, 2013, 09:21:56 PM »

It's based on evidence. Just as the soft tissue they found with dino blood years ago

Stick to one story Dr Dodgy. You can't have evidence, if nothing exists outside you. If nothing exists outside you, then the Bible doesn't exist.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #146 on: November 22, 2013, 09:25:02 PM »

It's based on evidence. Just as the soft tissue they found with dino blood years ago

Stick to one story Dr Dodgy. You can't have evidence, if nothing exists outside you. If nothing exists outside you, then the Bible doesn't exist.

I never said nothing exists outside of me. Based on the evidence that minds are needed to describe what we see, then the external world can only exist in God's mind.

Atheists are in a pickle when they try to claim that things exist outside of our minds while relying only on their minds to say such a thing: CCR=Classic Circular Reasoning.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #147 on: November 22, 2013, 09:26:30 PM »
Atheists are in a pickle when they try to claim that things exist outside of our minds while relying only on their minds to say such a thing: CCR=Classic Circular Reasoning.

No. You are in a pickle because you've dodged everything significant I've brought up in the last 20 minutes.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #148 on: November 22, 2013, 09:27:11 PM »
Atheists are in a pickle when they try to claim that things exist outside of our minds while relying only on their minds to say such a thing: CCR=Classic Circular Reasoning.

No. You are in a pickle because you've dodged everything significant I've brought up in the last 20 minutes.

if you don't like the answer, it does not mean I am dodging.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #149 on: November 22, 2013, 09:28:01 PM »
Atheists are in a pickle when they try to claim that things exist outside of our minds while relying only on their minds to say such a thing: CCR=Classic Circular Reasoning.

No. You are in a pickle because you've dodged everything significant I've brought up in the last 20 minutes.

if you don't like the answer, it does not mean I am dodging.
You never actually address the question, you give a cop-out response, then accuse us of circular reasoning.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2013, 09:30:20 PM »
You never actually address the question, you give a cop-out response, then accuse us of circular reasoning.

If you are using circular reasoning, then I should point it out.
It would be unfair if I didn't.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #151 on: November 22, 2013, 09:32:07 PM »
You never actually address the question, you give a cop-out response, then accuse us of circular reasoning.

If you are using circular reasoning, then I should point it out.
It would be unfair if I didn't.

We have not resorted to circular reasoning, you keep derailing the conversation and throwing it further off topic, if you do this again, I'll have to report you.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #152 on: November 22, 2013, 10:11:06 PM »
I never said nothing exists outside of me. Based on the evidence that minds are needed to describe what we see, then the external world can only exist in God's mind.
Which is practically meaningless.  It makes no predictions about the world, it tells us nothing useful, and its only actual purpose is to reaffirm a belief that you have no evidence to support.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Atheists are in a pickle when they try to claim that things exist outside of our minds while relying only on their minds to say such a thing: CCR=Classic Circular Reasoning.
Your own reasoning (that the external world can only exist in God's mind) is fanciful and incoherent.  You have no evidence to support such a contention, or even that such a being as 'God' exists in the first place.  And saying that the external world can only exist in God's mind, because minds are needed to describe what we see, is incoherent.  It is not a meaningful argument, because the fact that minds are needed to describe what we see has nothing to do with the external world being in a mind.

By comparison, the argument that there is a world external to us is supported by evidence - if I point at something, you can see me pointing at it.  If you point at something, I can see you pointing at it.  Furthermore, for it to be a circular argument, the conclusion must effectively contain the premise.  You can certainly say that we rely on our minds in order to determine that things exist outside of our minds, but it goes no further than that.  So your argument simply fails.

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2013, 12:54:00 AM »
I said I can't prove it to you guys. But lots of things can't be proven, such as an external world existing outside of our minds.

It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.
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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2013, 01:39:49 AM »
I said I can't prove it to you guys. But lots of things can't be proven, such as an external world existing outside of our minds.

It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

I say skeptic isn't real. Until I see him face to face, he has evidence that he's not just my imagination, and that he actually exists I will just believe he's a figment of my imagination.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2013, 02:10:01 AM »
[I say skeptic isn't real. Until I see him face to face, he has evidence that he's not just my imagination, and that he actually exists I will just believe he's a figment of my imagination.
;)
-Nam
So its your fault he's here. Damn these group hallucinations ! >:(
Please stop projecting him, he's getting on my nerves. ;)
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Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2013, 02:13:39 AM »
Ah, now the butter is slowly beginning to churn.

If you guys used to be Christians, wouldn't you know why we believe what we believe?

Why do you want Christians to think critically about their faith? Does our belief bother you?

Actually, a number of atheists here were not believers.  Their curiosity is genuine.  By contrast, I was a believer.  I know why many believers retain their faith, but I am usually too polite to point it out.  Since you brought up the subject, I'll make an exception

Believers are scared.  They're like frightened little children who long for someone to protect them; protect them from the demons under their bed, protect them from the harshness of reality, and for someone more powerful than themselves to tell them that everything will be 'ok'.  I leave these folks alone.  They can retain their comfortable illusions for as long as they remain unchallenged by life, and perhaps, if they are especially vulnerable, even thereafter.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2013, 02:21:52 AM »
It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

Not when it comes to things that existed before any minds were around. There's no possible way to claim what could exist when there's no minds around to describe it.

This is a purely empirical claim and it leads to God. You atheists are adding an extra unproven step that is NOT based on empiricism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2013, 02:23:43 AM »
[I say skeptic isn't real. Until I see him face to face, he has evidence that he's not just my imagination, and that he actually exists I will just believe he's a figment of my imagination.
;)
-Nam
So its your fault he's here. Damn these group hallucinations ! >:(
Please stop projecting him, he's getting on my nerves. ;)

If I could smite myself....





If only....

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2013, 02:25:05 AM »
It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

Not when it comes to things that existed before any minds were around. There's no possible way to claim what could exist when there's no minds around to describe it.

This is a purely empirical claim and it leads to God. You atheists are adding an extra unproven step that is NOT based on empiricism.

Projection at it's finest, it's actually the other way around.
You posit a complex mind HAD to come up with the universe, you can't get around the infinite regression problem.
What mind created god? What mind created that mind? Ad-infinitum

Infinite regressWiki

watch this video:


The universe has no need for a creator.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:26:56 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #160 on: November 23, 2013, 02:31:26 AM »
It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

Not when it comes to things that existed before any minds were around. There's no possible way to claim what could exist when there's no minds around to describe it.

This is a purely empirical claim and it leads to God. You atheists are adding an extra unproven step that is NOT based on empiricism.

Projection at it's finest, it's actually the other way around.
You posit a complex mind HAD to come up with the universe, you can't get around the infinite regression problem.
What mind created god? What mind created that mind? Ad-infinitum

Infinite regressWiki

watch this video:


The universe has no need for a creator.

10 billion dollars for that machine?!?!?!

Imagine if that money went to feeding the world's hungry!

How ludicrous! This is what happens when you stop caring about others just to focus on where the universe came from, which is trivial compared to someone's life.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #161 on: November 23, 2013, 02:33:38 AM »
It doesn't need to be proven, Skeptic.  We're using it right now.  Whether or not it's real or an illusion, it's real enough for our needs and it's consistent enough for our needs.

Not when it comes to things that existed before any minds were around. There's no possible way to claim what could exist when there's no minds around to describe it.

This is a purely empirical claim and it leads to God. You atheists are adding an extra unproven step that is NOT based on empiricism.

Projection at it's finest, it's actually the other way around.
You posit a complex mind HAD to come up with the universe, you can't get around the infinite regression problem.
What mind created god? What mind created that mind? Ad-infinitum

Infinite regressWiki

watch this video:
<snip>

The universe has no need for a creator.

10 billion dollars for that machine?!?!?!

Imagine if that money went to feeding the world's hungry!

How ludicrous! This is what happens when you stop caring about others just to focus on where the universe came from, which is trivial compared to someone's life.

Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #162 on: November 23, 2013, 02:36:22 AM »
Imagine if the churches had actually shared out all their wealth.
History may well have been a bit more pleasent.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #163 on: November 23, 2013, 02:37:32 AM »
How ludicrous! This is what happens when you stop caring about others just to focus on where the universe came from, which is trivial compared to someone's life.

You realize, of course, that the money you spent on your computer could have gone towards feeding hungry people somewhere. And that the world would be a lot better off if you didn't have one.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #164 on: November 23, 2013, 02:37:46 AM »
Imagine if the churches had actually shared out all their wealth.
History may well have been a bit more pleasent.

That's a "you too!" argument. A fallacy.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #165 on: November 23, 2013, 02:38:02 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Whether or not he did watch the whole video, this did offer a great opportunity to change the topic.  Can't focus on one thing too long, after all...insight might seep in.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #166 on: November 23, 2013, 02:38:55 AM »
Imagine if the churches had actually shared out all their wealth.
History may well have been a bit more pleasent.

That's a "you too!" argument. A fallacy.

Your point? It's a valid critique.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #167 on: November 23, 2013, 02:39:05 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Yes, I watched the whole video. A lot of unsupported assertions and statements of "perhaps" a lot.

How is that science?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #168 on: November 23, 2013, 02:40:44 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Yes, I watched the whole video. A lot of unsupported assertions and statements of "perhaps" a lot.

How is that science?

He never asserted anything, name one assertion? Michio has a bad habit of being a bit over-excited in his explanations but he never actually asserts anything. Everything he says can be verified by searching for the peer reviewed papers, which you won't bother looking for will you?

"Perhaps" is VERY VERY good science, "perhaps", "maybe", "we think", "we have reason to believe", those are all acceptable scientific phrases.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:42:24 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2013, 02:41:17 AM »
Imagine if the churches had actually shared out all their wealth.
History may well have been a bit more pleasent.

That's a "you too!" argument. A fallacy.
During my 41 years of history I like to think I have done my fair share to help others.
Clearly I was not around for the last couple of thousand years so no it is not "you too".
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2013, 02:46:49 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Yes, I watched the whole video. A lot of unsupported assertions and statements of "perhaps" a lot.

How is that science?

He never asserted anything, name one assertion? Michio has a bad habit of being a bit over-excited in his explanations but he never actually asserts anything. Everything he says can be verified by searching for the peer reviewed papers, which you won't bother looking for will you?

"Perhaps" is VERY VERY good science, "perhaps", "maybe", "we think", "we have reason to believe", those are all acceptable scientific phrases.

He thinks the whole universe is nothing. He has not empirically demonstrated that. I am sure he won't mind signing over his paycheck to me considering he would just be signing over nothing to me.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2013, 02:50:04 AM »
Did you even watch the whole video? Or just hear LHC and quit?

Yes, I watched the whole video. A lot of unsupported assertions and statements of "perhaps" a lot.

How is that science?

He never asserted anything, name one assertion? Michio has a bad habit of being a bit over-excited in his explanations but he never actually asserts anything. Everything he says can be verified by searching for the peer reviewed papers, which you won't bother looking for will you?

"Perhaps" is VERY VERY good science, "perhaps", "maybe", "we think", "we have reason to believe", those are all acceptable scientific phrases.

He thinks the whole universe is nothing. He has not empirically demonstrated that. I am sure he won't mind signing over his paycheck to me considering he would just be signing over nothing to me.

Actually he did, he told you how to do it, now all you have to do is get the average spins, energy( and mass), and do some math. DO IT.

You should get polar values, add them together and you get zero.


EDIT:
Clarification.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:53:44 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2013, 02:54:08 AM »
Actually he did, he told you how to do it, now all you have to do is get the average spins, energy, and mass, and do some math. DO IT.

You should get polar values, add them together and you get zero.

It's funny how nobody ever said, "Nothing exists at all!" when we theists ask, "how can you get something from nothing?"

Atheists used to think something existed and argue that things always existed or just said they didn't know. Now, it's "nothing exists."

The tune has changed again.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2013, 02:55:08 AM »
Actually he did, he told you how to do it, now all you have to do is get the average spins, energy, and mass, and do some math. DO IT.

You should get polar values, add them together and you get zero.

It's funny how nobody ever said, "Nothing exists at all!" when we theists ask, "how can you get something from nothing?"

Atheists used to think something existed and argue that things always existed or just said they didn't know. Now, it's "nothing exists."

The tune has changed again.

"Nothing" in cosmology is quantifiable, don't confuse it with the colloquial nothing.

The tune has not changed, you just think it has because I'm not agreeing with your assertions.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.