Author Topic: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself  (Read 4163 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2013, 12:46:46 PM »

No. A closer more appropriate honest analogy would be that somebody gets a disease and they ask the doctor how to cure it, and the doctor tells them what to do. They do what the doctor says and feel much better.

Actually his was more honest, yours is just terrible.


Do you ignore your doctor and just wing it?

Or do you do what the doctor says?


Are you actually trying to compare yourself to a doctor who has actual demonstrable evidence and years of professional study under controlled conditions? Your arrogance is astonishing.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 12:50:33 PM by median »
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Offline median

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2013, 12:58:05 PM »

If you guys used to be Christians, wouldn't you know why we believe what we believe?

Why do you want Christians to think critically about their faith? Does our belief bother you?

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. They affect others around you. They affect how you vote. They affect public policy. They affect what steps culture will take to pursuing truth, freedom, justice, equality and many other things. We want you to think critically (to be more precise: rationally) for the simple fact that you live in society and your beliefs (and henceforth behaviors based upon those beliefs) can affect others, on many different levels.

Wouldn't you want to know if your beliefs were mistaken? If so, then you should be honest enough to open-your-mind to sound reasoning and the possibility that you are in error.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2013, 01:42:05 PM »
Christianity 100, the prerequisite for the course you cited.
Are you sure he doesn't need to take Christianity 000 first?  You know, the remedial class.

Online Jag

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2013, 02:30:26 PM »
Christianity 100, the prerequisite for the course you cited.
Are you sure he doesn't need to take Christianity 000 first?  You know, the remedial class.
Maybe. I can only say with certainty that somewhere along the line, he missed an extremely important detail and is basing his behavior on a misunderstanding.

I know that things labeled "misunderstandings" seem to be a Very Big Deal to theists - they come here to talk about them all the time.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Nam

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2013, 02:36:43 PM »
Christianity 100, the prerequisite for the course you cited.
Are you sure he doesn't need to take Christianity 000 first?  You know, the remedial class.

Remedial classes usually give you the answers. I think I was right, he needs to go back to "goo goo ga ga".

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2013, 02:40:39 PM »
Christianity 100, the prerequisite for the course you cited.
Are you sure he doesn't need to take Christianity 000 first?  You know, the remedial class.

Remedial classes usually give you the answers. I think I was right, he needs to go back to "goo goo ga ga".

;)

-Nam
So course -1?
But we're getting slightly mean here, we should move on
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2013, 02:45:06 PM »
Christianity 100, the prerequisite for the course you cited.
Are you sure he doesn't need to take Christianity 000 first?  You know, the remedial class.

Remedial classes usually give you the answers. I think I was right, he needs to go back to "goo goo ga ga".

;)

-Nam
So course -1?
But we're getting slightly mean here, we should move on

I am a nice, kind, and gentle person. I am not "mean", at all.

I'm helpful.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2013, 03:21:16 PM »
Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. They affect others around you. They affect how you vote. They affect public policy. They affect what steps culture will take to pursuing truth, freedom, justice, equality and many other things. We want you to think critically (to be more precise: rationally) for the simple fact that you live in society and your beliefs (and henceforth behaviors based upon those beliefs) can affect others, on many different levels.

This.  A thousand times this.

I don't care if My next-door neighbour believes that an octarine platypus named Sid created the world.  I care virtually to the point of fisticuffs if he wants to teach that belief to kids at the school down the street and, to add injury to insult, purloin My hard-earned tax dollars to pay for such rot.

ETA:  Okay, maybe I do care a little bit if the guy next door believes stupid things -- As Median points out, even if said neighbour isn't trying to force Sid-ism upon the rest of the neighbourhood, it does impact the way he views and deals with reality.  Compartmentalization isn't leak-proof, and all too often the stupid leaks out.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 03:55:50 PM by Astreja »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2013, 05:42:16 PM »
I am still very surprised that websites like this even exist.

It seems to be an awful lot of dedication to a God that doesn't exist.

I've already explained this to you -- maybe you missed it the first time, so I'll repeat.

If we lived in a nation where 75% of the so-called "adult" population believed in the Easter Bunny; if several million of those people were wealthy and influential, and determined to pass laws based on Easter Bunny-ism that affected everyone, even the non-Easter Bunnyists...

If every other street corner in the nation had a temple for people to meet to worship him, and if radio and television was flooded with people preaching the Good News of the Easter Bunny (free candy, if only you believe!)...

If those temples were given tax exemptions, at the cost of higher taxes for everyone else...

If the minority who lacked belief in the Easter Bunny had to struggle with hiding that lack of belief for fear that disclosing their apostasy would result in their property being vandalized, their families ostracizing them, their careers and even their personal safety put at risk...

If that minority were routinely told to move to another country were non-Easter Bunnyism was welcome...

If custody battles in divorce cases were routinely decided in favor of Easter Bunnyists, with the judge explicitly saying that his decision was because non-Easter Bunnyism was "not in the child's best interests"...

If anyone openly admitting to non-Easter Bunnyism lacked even the smallest chance of being elected to any public office much above the position of dogcatcher...

If those disbelieving in the Easter Bunny were determined in public opinion polls to be almost as untrusted as rapists...

If teenagers admitting to their parents that they were not Easter Bunnyists faced the very real risk of being kicked out of their own homes, even if they had not yet reached the age of majority...

If the well-funded Easter Bunny majority was constantly trying to inject Easter Bunnyism into public education disguised as "science", while simultaneously working just as hard to have real science excluded from the curriculum...

If all that, and far, far more, were true...

...then we'd be spending a lot of time talking about the Easter Bunny as well.

Can you understand why?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2013, 01:22:42 AM »
I am still very surprised that websites like this even exist.

It seems to be an awful lot of dedication to a God that doesn't exist.

I've already explained this to you -- maybe you missed it the first time, so I'll repeat.

If we lived in a nation where 75% of the so-called "adult" population believed in the Easter Bunny; if several million of those people were wealthy and influential, and determined to pass laws based on Easter Bunny-ism that affected everyone, even the non-Easter Bunnyists...

If every other street corner in the nation had a temple for people to meet to worship him, and if radio and television was flooded with people preaching the Good News of the Easter Bunny (free candy, if only you believe!)...

If those temples were given tax exemptions, at the cost of higher taxes for everyone else...

If the minority who lacked belief in the Easter Bunny had to struggle with hiding that lack of belief for fear that disclosing their apostasy would result in their property being vandalized, their families ostracizing them, their careers and even their personal safety put at risk...

If that minority were routinely told to move to another country were non-Easter Bunnyism was welcome...

If custody battles in divorce cases were routinely decided in favor of Easter Bunnyists, with the judge explicitly saying that his decision was because non-Easter Bunnyism was "not in the child's best interests"...

If anyone openly admitting to non-Easter Bunnyism lacked even the smallest chance of being elected to any public office much above the position of dogcatcher...

If those disbelieving in the Easter Bunny were determined in public opinion polls to be almost as untrusted as rapists...

If teenagers admitting to their parents that they were not Easter Bunnyists faced the very real risk of being kicked out of their own homes, even if they had not yet reached the age of majority...

If the well-funded Easter Bunny majority was constantly trying to inject Easter Bunnyism into public education disguised as "science", while simultaneously working just as hard to have real science excluded from the curriculum...

If all that, and far, far more, were true...

...then we'd be spending a lot of time talking about the Easter Bunny as well.

Can you understand why?

The thing is, 75% of the population will never believe in the Easter Bunny because nobody has experiences with the Easter Bunny. Everybody claims to have experiences with God. The Easter Bunny=God analogy doesn't work for that very reason.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2013, 01:26:16 AM »

If you guys used to be Christians, wouldn't you know why we believe what we believe?

Why do you want Christians to think critically about their faith? Does our belief bother you?

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. They affect others around you. They affect how you vote. They affect public policy. They affect what steps culture will take to pursuing truth, freedom, justice, equality and many other things. We want you to think critically (to be more precise: rationally) for the simple fact that you live in society and your beliefs (and henceforth behaviors based upon those beliefs) can affect others, on many different levels.

Wouldn't you want to know if your beliefs were mistaken? If so, then you should be honest enough to open-your-mind to sound reasoning and the possibility that you are in error.

I wish I were mistaken. Life was a lot easier when I was an atheist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2013, 01:30:10 AM »
Are you actually trying to compare yourself to a doctor who has actual demonstrable evidence and years of professional study under controlled conditions? Your arrogance is astonishing. [/font]

Not myself as the doctor, no. Jesus is the doctor. The proof is that his tomb is still empty.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2013, 01:34:51 AM »
Everybody claims to have experiences with God.
No they do not.
I would actually guess that the majority do not- why do you think so many on here have turned away from religion?
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2013, 01:41:10 AM »
Everybody claims to have experiences with God.
No they do not.
I would actually guess that the majority do not- why do you think so many on here have turned away from religion?

The main problem is that atheists have large egos. They think, "if there is a God, then He must reveal Himself to me." I am told this is called "SPAG" because you are projecting your own thoughts onto what God would do. Since God isn't doing that, He must not exist. Seems like a "no-brainer," huh?

The atheists are thinking with their egos instead of putting the ego to the side. Just because God has not revealed Himself to you personally, this does not mean He does not exist. Plenty of people have experienced God. But, this does not follow that God must reveal Himself to everyone. I can not tell you why god revealed Himself to me, but He did.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2013, 01:55:12 AM »
The main problem is that atheists have large egos.
Thats quite an arrogant statement to make. Have you met all the atheists? Please do not assume that because we all agree there is no god that we are all the same. I would never say "all christians are ....."


 
Quote
They think, "if there is a God, then He must reveal Himself to me." I am told this is called "SPAG" because you are projecting your own thoughts onto what God would do. Since God isn't doing that, He must not exist. Seems like a "no-brainer," huh?
Again no, I simply think that if a god did exist it would not be unreasonable for him/her to actually let people know what he/she would actually like his/her followers to actually do. Simply pointing at one of many religious books written by man is in no way enough evidence for me to change my mind. A god must surely realise this if they indeed know anything about their own creations.


Quote
The atheists are thinking with their egos instead of putting the ego to the side. Just because God has not revealed Himself to you personally, this does not mean He does not exist. Plenty of people have experienced God. But, this does not follow that God must reveal Himself to everyone. I can not tell you why god revealed Himself to me, but He did.
Just one bit of evidence is all we ask- JUST ONE BIT OF PROOF HE/SHE HAS REVEALED HIM/HERSELF. Thats all it would take.
How hard could it possibly be for the creator of everything just to pop down and say hello?
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2013, 01:59:23 AM »
Thats quite an arrogant statement to make. Have you met all the atheists? Please do not assume that because we all agree there is no god that we are all the same. I would never say "all christians are ....."

So you think there is no God? A different atheist was telling me atheists just lack a belief that God is real, which is different from saying God does not exist. But here, you say that there is no God.

Very confusing.

Just one bit of evidence is all we ask- JUST ONE BIT OF PROOF HE/SHE HAS REVEALED HIM/HERSELF. Thats all it would take.
How hard could it possibly be for the creator of everything just to pop down and say hello?

He did that a bunch of times, remember? They still worshipped golden calfs and rejected their own Messiah, even while he was performing miracles left and right.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2013, 02:01:13 AM »
Everybody claims to have experiences with God.
I thought I experienced god once, turned out it was bad gas.
I was never a christian, I was never religious, I've never experienced "god", your argument is invalid.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2013, 02:04:06 AM »
So you think there is no God? A different atheist was telling me atheists just lack a belief that God is real, which is different from saying God does not exist. But here, you say that there is no God.

Very confusing.
Not at all, we are not all the same. The definition is indeed a lack of belief, I personally think there is no god as well as a lack of belief in any god. See, simple.

Quote
Just one bit of evidence is all we ask- JUST ONE BIT OF PROOF HE/SHE HAS REVEALED HIM/HERSELF. Thats all it would take.
How hard could it possibly be for the creator of everything just to pop down and say hello?

He did that a bunch of times, remember? They still worshipped golden calfs and rejected their own Messiah, even while he was performing miracles left and right.
No, it is just stories in a book. Evidence please.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2013, 02:05:48 AM »
So you think there is no God? A different atheist was telling me atheists just lack a belief that God is real, which is different from saying God does not exist. But here, you say that there is no God.

"[I think]/[I believe] there is no god" is a very different statement from "[I know] there is no god."  The former is a statement of belief and the latter is a statement of knowledge.

For instance, I believe that the god described in the Bible is too unlikely to exist, but I don't know that it doesn't exist.  I just live My life as if it isn't there, using probability rather than absolute certainty.

Not myself as the doctor, no. Jesus is the doctor. The proof is that his tomb is still empty.

Uh... Dead doctors aren't alive enough to do CPR on themselves.  If Jesus did exist and did die for real, someone else would have had to bring him back; otherwise he was never really dead and there was no actual sacrifice.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2013, 02:09:03 AM »
"[I think]/[I believe] there is no god" is a very different statement from "[I know] there is no god."  The former is a statement of belief and the latter is a statement of knowledge.

For instance, I believe that the god described in the Bible is too unlikely to exist, but I don't know that it doesn't exist.  I just live My life as if it isn't there, using probability rather than absolute certainty.

That's why atheism is a belief. You believe there is no God. You can't prove it.

And since I have never seen any evidence for atheism, it's hard for me to go back to it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2013, 02:10:15 AM »
"[I think]/[I believe] there is no god" is a very different statement from "[I know] there is no god."  The former is a statement of belief and the latter is a statement of knowledge.

For instance, I believe that the god described in the Bible is too unlikely to exist, but I don't know that it doesn't exist.  I just live My life as if it isn't there, using probability rather than absolute certainty.

That's why atheism is a belief. You believe there is no God. You can't prove it.

And since I have never seen any evidence for atheism, it's hard for me to go back to it.
YOU have the burden of proof, not us. You're the one making the knowledge claim, you also asserted that "everyone" has experienced YOUR particular god. I refuted that with the fact that I was never religious.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2013, 02:15:42 AM »
YOU have the burden of proof, not us. You're the one making the knowledge claim, you also asserted that "everyone" has experienced YOUR particular god. I refuted that with the fact that I was never religious.

The burden of proof is always on the people who are in the minority. Common knowledge is that God is real. It's only a small number of people who feel they have reasons and evidence that God is not real.

When you go against the grain, you have to have proof in order to make it the norm. That's how it works. If atheism was the norm, then theists would have the burden of proof because we would be making a claim that deviates from the norm.

By the way, this brings up the question of why people in minority cults are considered nuts, but atheists are not considered nuts even though they are a minority "cult?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2013, 02:17:14 AM »
YOU have the burden of proof, not us. You're the one making the knowledge claim, you also asserted that "everyone" has experienced YOUR particular god. I refuted that with the fact that I was never religious.

The burden of proof is always on the people who are in the minority. Common knowledge is that God is real. It's only a small number of people who feel they have reasons and evidence that God is not real.

When you go against the grain, you have to have proof in order to make it the norm. That's how it works. If atheism was the norm, then theists would have the burden of proof because we would be making a claim that deviates from the norm.

By the way, this brings up the question of why people in minority cults are considered nuts, but atheists are not considered nuts even though they are a minority "cult?"
You're full of shit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2013, 02:19:19 AM »
That's why atheism is a belief. You believe there is no God. You can't prove it.

I actually don't care that I can't prove it, which is why I don't bother to try to prove it.  For My needs, not believing in something ridiculous works just fine.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2013, 02:21:30 AM »
I actually don't care that I can't prove it, which is why I don't bother to try to prove it.  For My needs, not believing in something ridiculous works just fine.

On what grounds do you reject God's existence? Lack of evidence?

If so, then logically you would have to reject atheism due to lack of evidence. Like you said, you can't prove atheism.

This puts you on an endless hamster wheel.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #83 on: November 22, 2013, 02:21:47 AM »
The burden of proof is always on the people who are in the minority. Common knowledge is that God is real.
Not true, the burden of proof is on those suggesting that something exists when there is no evidence. You know this- please stop this approach.
Common knowledge - must be true then. I guess the world really was flat once then.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Antidote

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2013, 02:23:23 AM »
I actually don't care that I can't prove it, which is why I don't bother to try to prove it.  For My needs, not believing in something ridiculous works just fine.

On what grounds do you reject God's existence? Lack of evidence?

If so, then logically you would have to reject atheism due to lack of evidence. Like you said, you can't prove atheism.

This puts you on an endless hamster wheel.
Atheism requires no evidence, it's the Null HypothesisWiki.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2013, 02:23:33 AM »
You're full of shit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

I believe that if I went up to doctors and told them that disease is caused by aliens on Pluto, I would have the burden of proof.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Christianity sells the solution for a problem created by itself
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2013, 02:24:18 AM »
On what grounds do you reject God's existence? Lack of evidence?

If so, then logically you would have to reject atheism due to lack of evidence. Like you said, you can't prove atheism.

Actually, lack of evidence for your god is evidence for atheism, just as a lack of milk in the fridge would lead one to believe that there was no milk in the fridge.
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