Author Topic: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....  (Read 985 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 02:18:42 AM »


Oh I absolutely can:
J.R.R Tolkien:
The Hobbit
The Lord Of The Rings: Fellowship Of The Ring
The Lord Of The Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King

Edgar Allan Poe:
All of his books, every. single. one.
Especially my personal favorite: For Whom The Bell Tolls.

Mark Twain:
Huckleberry Finn
Tom Sawyer

Various:
The Hardey Brothers
To Kill A Mocking Bird

Need I go on? I absolutely love reading.

Some good books there, I agree.

But if someone was to call them shithouse, how would you defend them? What makes them good? What makes the bible's prose bad?

Also: Hardey Brothers? You don't mean Hardy Brothers do you? Frank and Joe Hardy and their detective Dad Fenton?
I've already posted one reason, and explained why I'm not going to go into the individual merits of each book.

THIS is what i meant:
http://www.audible.com/pd/Kids/The-Mystery-of-Cabin-Island-Audiobook/B0036INABO?source_code=GO1DG9048SH080912&gclid=CJ2b_ZzU8roCFQZffgod3WIA8w&mkwid=sePIewomY_dc&pkw=PLA&pmt=broad&pcrid=36223238889

Yes it's meant for kids, but it's still good literature.

You know, I seriously can't tell if you're yanking my chain here. When I was 10 I loved a good Hardy Boy story as much as the next person, but I suspect it doesn't immediately come to mind for many people as an example of good literature.

Nancy Drew, on the other hand...
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Offline Fiji

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 02:19:55 AM »
So, the bible is put under 'fiction' and they throw a tantrum ... meanwhile they're pissing themselves over the thoroughly fictional Noah movie ...  :?
Go home Christians, you're drunk.
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 02:23:20 AM »
Wait, you mean the Bible, the self-contradicting, reality-contradicting, poorly written book that doesn't match with reality is fiction? Who'da thunk it?

I'd like to write such a poorly written book that sells 100 million copies a year.

You do realize that the Bible is the best selling book because Christians are the ones who print them, and then SELL THEM IN BULK to themselves, right?

How about if it wasn't done that way, you really think it'd be a best seller, in such regard? It's like the second most book ever sold: made in bulk and then sold to their followers, and if they didn't buy it on their own, they were forced to buy it.

-Nam

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2013, 02:24:19 AM »
Hitchens had some nice things to say about the KJV. Very kind of him.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-hitchens-praises-king-james-bible-49686/

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 02:26:40 AM by magicmiles »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2013, 02:28:12 AM »
and if they didn't buy it on their own, they were forced to buy it.

-Nam

Sources please!!!
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2013, 02:31:55 AM »
Hitchens had some nice things to say about the KJV. Very kind of him.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-hitchens-praises-king-james-bible-49686/



If this is to me, what does this have anything to do with what I said?

If not to me, same question but to what others have said?

As a side: I don't believe anyone here doesn't agree there are some quotable (in the +) parts in the Bible but it does seem that many of those sayings were taken from previous religions, and/or people, and rewritten to suit. Like the "golden rule", etc.,

-Nam

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2013, 02:37:03 AM »
and if they didn't buy it on their own, they were forced to buy it.

-Nam

Sources please!!!

Encyclopedias, documentaries, common knowledge. How do you think a book like Mein Kampf sold so well? Because they really, really wanted to be bored to death by Hitler's ramblings? No, they were forced to buy it, for the most part.

Hell, I bet most of those types of books, like the Bible, may have been purchased but I highly doubt actually read. In my opinion, I bet many of them are probably packed away, or thrown away after purchase.

-Nam

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2013, 02:38:15 AM »
Hitchens had some nice things to say about the KJV. Very kind of him.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-hitchens-praises-king-james-bible-49686/



If this is to me, what does this have anything to do with what I said?

If not to me, same question but to what others have said?

-Nam



I was discussing the literary worth of the bible with Antidote
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 02:40:15 AM by magicmiles »
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2013, 02:43:09 AM »
Fix your quote.

The bible doesn't have a "literary worth", mainly because it's not a "book" that tells a story, it's a collection of books attempting to agree with itself, with slight alterations in storyline. Which is incomplete. It tells a specific "Jewish" story, which is used to validate the "Christian" story. That, in of itself, makes it fiction, and poorly displayed.

-Nam

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2013, 02:52:23 AM »
and if they didn't buy it on their own, they were forced to buy it.

-Nam

Sources please!!!

Encyclopedias, documentaries, common knowledge.
-Nam

That doesn't cut it. That's just you, re-stating the claim and telling me that evidence exists.
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2013, 03:09:44 AM »
That doesn't cut it. That's just you, re-stating the claim and telling me that evidence exists.

You do realize I'm not stating that anyone was forced to buy the Bible, right? Though, I'm sure people have been. I mean individual church organizations are the ones who buy the Bible in bulk (and their particular version of it) and then ask their followers to buy them.

Anyway, you're going to have to give me some time to re-research this subject (yes, I've had it before). I'm on a phone, not a PC, and not all websites work on my phone and I have to write them down by hand.

-Nam

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2013, 03:14:02 AM »
I confess that I did take your meaning to be that people were forced to buy the bible, but in my defense you did say 'they were forced to buy it'

But I don't really mind fi you do or don't provide sources for anything. I was being deliberately provocative. I'm in that sort of mood.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2013, 03:20:38 AM »
I confess that I did take your meaning to be that people were forced to buy the bible, but in my defense you did say 'they were forced to buy it'

But I don't really mind fi you do or don't provide sources for anything. I was being deliberately provocative. I'm in that sort of mood.


Context:

Quote
It's like the second most book ever sold: made in bulk and then sold to their followers, and if they didn't buy it on their own, they were forced to buy it.
-- Communist Manifesto.

Though, I just now read on wiki (sorry no link) that the Qur'an now tops the Bible in most sold. Of course, the figures on these books are wrought with suspicion in that they, in themselves, hold too much controversy since all three of them, at one time or another (present included) have been forced on people. So why wouldn't their scripture and/or ideological material?

-Nam

Offline Fiji

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2013, 03:31:34 AM »
Quote
I called Costco headquarters in Issaquah, Wash. hoping to get answers. The nice lady who answered the phone told me she was aware of the issue and chalked it up to a “human error at a warehouse.”

“It’s all fixed,” she said.

But actually, it’s not fixed – because there’s a boatload of Bibles in the Simi Valley store still marked as fiction. 

At that point, the nice lady on the phone became not-so-nice and promptly informed me that Costco doesn’t talk to the press.

“Nothing to report,” she said curtly.

I can just imagine him (the reporter) sitting there, during the call, HOPING she'd say something dumb/quotable.
But all she gave him was a basic "no comment".

And he was apprently just a bit butt-hurt about that, cause he get catty in the next line ...

Quote
With all due respect, perhaps they should leave the reporting to the professionals and we’ll leave the bulk purchases of toilet paper to Costco.

Quote
“To label the Bible fiction is a practical front for an ideological foundation that assumes things spiritual are unreal,” he told me.

Tell me, oh wise one, where sould we put the Iliad? Besides, unless you're a biblical literalist, you're assuming the bible is at least partially fictional.

Quote
“What is odd about this choice is the glut of books in the "religion and spirituality" sections in mainstream book stores. However, as large as "spirituality" sections are, there must not be any room for Christianity. Modern thinking on spirituality is too exclusive to allow for the Bible.”

Man, your herring is such a deep red!!!

Quote
Of course, this entire episode could have been cleared up had a Costco employee simply answered Pastor Kaltenbach’s question.

And that’s the Gospel Truth.

in other words, it's a load of dingo's kidneys.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2013, 03:35:57 AM »


in other words, it's a load of dingo's kidneys.

Dingo's are atheists, by the way.
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Offline jetson

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2013, 08:06:38 AM »
I think the story is totally awesome, and its about time the Bible is placed under the fiction category.  If I had to relent, I would suggest religion as a category.

I was just wondering why it wasn't put in the religion section. Most book stores have a religion section[1]...or at least a self help/inspirational/spiritual section. Does costco have a religion section? If so...what other books remained "religious"?

I have never been to a costco so I have no idea how they organize their book section.
 1. I realize costoco is not just a book store

Costco has a few large tables stacked with books.  I think the "sections" are included on the price tag.

Offline Jag

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2013, 08:11:49 AM »
And that's 100 miilion units per year. Year after year. I think Twilight probably won't match it, for what its worth.
Ahem. I see several problems with this idea without any effort.

Owning a bible and reading a bible are not the same thing - how many of the 100 million units purchased each year get read rather than set on a shelf?

How many bibles are purchased as gifts? It's very common in Catholic circles to get a beautiful edition of the bible at confirmation or at baptism. I assume that other religions encourage the purchase of bibles as gifts as well.

Speaking of Catholics, they do make up the majority of the christian population world-wide; although screwtape was being somewhat facetious when he commented that Catholics don't read the bible, it's based on reality.

Even here in the states where believers are in your face about it believers don't read the bible. I lost track of how many emails I got in the last two elections that quoted a passage from Revelations that indicated that Obama might be the Anti-Christ. The only problem is that the quoted passage doesn't exist - which no one who was so foolish as to send me that particular email was aware of but might have known if they had ever actually read the book they were quoting. No worries, of course I showed them why they were wrong, and copied everyone they included in the forwards to me. My own mother didn't escape that one.

I'm an atheist. I own 4 different versions of the bible, all of which I purchased myself since realizing that I don't believe in the christian god. The Brick Bible is the only one unboxed (at my house 70 miles away). I did, however, bring my copy of God's Lunatics with me to my apartment, just in case I get caught by a pushy theist.

Huge sales do not translate to anything meaningful. All purchases are not being made by theists. All purchases are not resulting in people reading the bible and being persuaded of it's authenticity. All purchases are not even translating in people reading it at all. You can use that statistic to support your point, I'd just be wary of expecting it to be an effective approach with this particular audience - you ought to ask how many bibles we atheists collectively own before getting too excited about sales figures.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Dr H

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2013, 03:53:31 PM »
I just read the article and almost spat my lunch out.

$14.99? With Costco's enormous bulk purchasing ability, those bibles should be no more than a few dollars.
Especially since you can get one from the Gideons for free. ;)
Dr H

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Offline Dr H

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2013, 04:08:41 PM »
[Though, I just now read on wiki (sorry no link) that the Qur'an now tops the Bible in most sold.

Here's what I find on Wiki:

"The Bible, the Qur'an, the Gita, The Communist Manifesto and Quotations from Chairman Mao are widely reported as the most-printed and most-distributed books in the world, with hundreds of millions of copies of each of them believed to be in existence. Exact print figures for some such books may also be missing or unreliable since these kinds of books may be produced by many different and unrelated publishers, in some cases over many centuries. All such books have been excluded from this List of best-selling books for these reasons."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books
Dr H

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Offline Dr H

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2013, 04:19:17 PM »
Huge sales do not translate to anything meaningful.

That depends on whether you think that huge amounts of money are meaningful, I suppose.

I'm guessing that the poster who said he wished he could produce as poorly written a book that sold 100 million copies was wistfully imagining making boatloads of $$$$ for relatively little effort.  "Best seller" simply means "we sure  sold an awful lot of this book".  It doesn't say anything about who bought them, why they bought them, or if they read them.  I daresay the people who sell them don't much care:  what they care about are sales.

If you're selling fish heads, and I buy $50,000 worth of fish heads from you, are you really concerned with whether I'm making them into soup, using them for bait, or nailing them to the walls of my boudoir and sleeping with them?

Dr H

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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2013, 05:01:46 PM »
[Though, I just now read on wiki (sorry no link) that the Qur'an now tops the Bible in most sold.

Here's what I find on Wiki:

"The Bible, the Qur'an, the Gita, The Communist Manifesto and Quotations from Chairman Mao are widely reported as the most-printed and most-distributed books in the world, with hundreds of millions of copies of each of them believed to be in existence. Exact print figures for some such books may also be missing or unreliable since these kinds of books may be produced by many different and unrelated publishers, in some cases over many centuries. All such books have been excluded from this List of best-selling books for these reasons."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

I'm sorry, I must retract: the other wiki page I found was "most printed", and the Qur'an topped that list.

My bad. I was in a hurry.

-Nam

Offline Nick

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2013, 05:03:19 PM »
Every time I am in a hotel room I always take the bible out and write FICTION in the inside cover.

But that's VANDALISM. You wouldn't want to besmirch the good name of atheists would you?
I see it more as a correction.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
Huge sales do not translate to anything meaningful.

That depends on whether you think that huge amounts of money are meaningful, I suppose.

I'm guessing that the poster who said he wished he could produce as poorly written a book that sold 100 million copies was wistfully imagining making boatloads of $$$$ for relatively little effort.  "Best seller" simply means "we sure  sold an awful lot of this book".  It doesn't say anything about who bought them, why they bought them, or if they read them.  I daresay the people who sell them don't much care:  what they care about are sales.

If you're selling fish heads, and I buy $50,000 worth of fish heads from you, are you really concerned with whether I'm making them into soup, using them for bait, or nailing them to the walls of my boudoir and sleeping with them?



To the seller, they are purely in it for the profit, if not they'd just give them away for free; and some do but with restrictions[1]…the buyer, for the most part, are just supporting the seller to "spread the word" which is done ineffectually since giving them away would be more productive.

-Nam
 1. like LDS

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2013, 05:47:22 PM »
I reckon you're talking out your arse. But to show that you aren't, maybe you can cite some examples of what you judge to be good literature. Then you can explain what makes it good and the bible bad.

The Bible - good literature? I don't know, it always sounds really "preachy" to me: do this, do that, don't do this, here's a story about an man who did/didn't do that and he got his face burned off, etc.

The research by the author was pretty poor too. Things that never happened are put in, things that did happen are left out; the chronology is out by miles; the editor made amendments that contradict the author.  And the ending's really weird - whoever wrote it needs his bumps feeling.

And the way it is written! Great literature must be clear as a mountain stream, but I asked someone else who had read the Bible, and do you know, we nearly came to blows over what it meant! Amazing. You'd have thought that after a few thousand years it could have been edited better, wouldn't you?

But I think the main problem is that there's nobody to identify with: all of them are weird. Sometimes they are normal and the next they are killing people and/or doing magic tricks. And I never did find out why the Moabites were all killed and then Ruth was a Moabite (WTF?) It left me feeling that the author had missed a great opportunity -> It should have been a sort of Star Wars with sand and camels.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 05:51:00 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Jag

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2013, 09:08:24 PM »
Huge sales do not translate to anything meaningful.

That depends on whether you think that huge amounts of money are meaningful, I suppose.

I'm guessing that the poster who said he wished he could produce as poorly written a book that sold 100 million copies was wistfully imagining making boatloads of $$$$ for relatively little effort.  "Best seller" simply means "we sure  sold an awful lot of this book".  It doesn't say anything about who bought them, why they bought them, or if they read them.  I daresay the people who sell them don't much care:  what they care about are sales.

If you're selling fish heads, and I buy $50,000 worth of fish heads from you, are you really concerned with whether I'm making them into soup, using them for bait, or nailing them to the walls of my boudoir and sleeping with them?
Ok, then I revise my statement to "huge sales do not translate to anything meaningful that supports the point you are trying to make".
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2013, 09:11:52 PM »
True, there are a lot of bibles printed and sold. Most end up in hotel and motel rooms.  Lots are given away worldwide to people for free who otherwise would probably never buy one. A few of them are even read--most people who start trying to read it never finish it. It is far too long, badly written, boring and difficult.

Like the Quran, the Gita, Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Read Book, most bibles are not bought by a person who intends to actually sit down and read it because they chose to.  And very few people read any of the above with an open mind and are converted to the beliefs. You have to already be leaning that way. Talk about a captive market! Thus bibles are not exactly "best-sellers" if you mean the general usage, the books that are voluntarily purchased and read most, not the technical definitions used by the publishing industry of gross numbers printed. 

The books with the highest sales that are purchased voluntarily and actually read by the purchasers are--wait for it--harlequin romance novels and other similar trashy disposables. Over 100 different harlequin titles alone are produced each month, and over 100 million books are sold each year. Of the 20 million regular readers, over half read a new romance novel every two days.[1]

Now then, how much do you want to bet that most of the women (and the 9% of the total who are male) who buy and read over 100 of these books every year also own a least one bible?  And how many of them have actually read their one religious best-seller?
 1. I have a relative who made a side living writing these kinds of stories. He (and lots of the writers and publishers are male) earned enough money to buy a new car when the family needed one, and pay many household expenses each year.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Antidote

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2013, 09:27:42 PM »
Hitchens had some nice things to say about the KJV. Very kind of him.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-hitchens-praises-king-james-bible-49686/
That's a christian website, I'm not going to trust it as far as I can throw it, but I do know his opinions of it:
Quote from: Christopher Hitchens
The Bible may, indeed does, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals.
-God Is Not Great

EDIT:
Also, you don't think the Hardy Boys is good literature? It's on par with Nancy Drew in my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 09:33:25 PM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2013, 10:03:18 PM »
Isn't "Quotations from Chairman Mao" up there in most-printed books?  Does that mean that it's great literature, too?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline Antidote

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Re: The Bible is fiction, and people are upset.....
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2013, 10:10:10 PM »
Isn't "Quotations from Chairman Mao" up there in most-printed books?  Does that mean that it's great literature, too?
I guess it's kinda like quantum physics; In that it's good, until you actually read it.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.