Author Topic: Presuppositional apologetics.  (Read 1139 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1201
  • Darwins +89/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2013, 11:40:13 AM »
Surely the best way forward is to agree on a level of proof required for our three gods, then provide said proof?

Demons are behind all "proofs" of Coatilcue or Yahweh.  Atum is the only real god.

You are all mistaken. There is only 1 God that could ever be and the name of that God is Shoeng Shun Shi!!!

Yeah? And I'm Brian, and so's my wife.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11896
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2013, 02:18:39 PM »
So what's the evidence that it's the invention of your god?

the fact that it works perfectly with the universe. That isn't luck.

You make walls bleed with your ignorance.

-Nam

What part of his statement do you consider ignorant, and why?

What's the point of this exercise? I find his comment ignorant to the reality of reality. If you said the same thing, I'd say the same thing.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2013, 03:33:11 PM »
I have no idea who Sye is, but it sounds like he has the right idea.

Without God, we wouldn't know anything. God is necessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

God cannot not exist.

or in other words circular reasoning. A fallacy that all forms of theism like yours rely on.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2013, 03:42:04 PM »
So what's the evidence that it's the invention of your god?

the fact that it works perfectly with the universe. That isn't luck.

You make walls bleed with your ignorance.

-Nam

What part of his statement do you consider ignorant, and why?

That math is a system devised for desribing things. There have been various systems of math over the span of human existence, however every culture that has encounter arabic math drops their native system for arabic math as it is that much better.

Math is a language, nothing more. If you were trying to describe something you would do it with words. As you are a native English speaker you would describe an Egyptian tomb in English. However, you are aware that your language is a social construct and wouldn't think that English works perfectly in describing a tomb of people who died out before English arose.

If you were to insist that you would either be ignorant of the fact that English is a social construct, or you would be displaying willful ignorance in order to support your delusional paradigm.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2013, 04:59:38 PM »
I have just edited a book by James A. Lindsay called Dot, Dot, Dot: Infinity Plus God Equals Folly. It's really good and looks to show how infinity is a human abstraction used to try to understand certain scenarios, but does not really exist other than conceptually. Thus if God has infinite properties or knowledge then he is just an abstraction, a mental construct. Great book.

One of the take away ideas is that maths is not Platonically real as theists like to think, but a conceptual tool to understand reality. Theists, Platonists, often confuse the map for the terrain. In other words, confuse our conceptual tools for understanding reality with reality itself.

Different areas of maths use different axioms to create axiomatic systems to form certain conclusions. There are also different logics. i think it is really simplistic to think that maths is perfect and fits reality and therefore Goddidit. Really naive.

There are heaps of problems in maths, infinity being just one. If some kind of deterministic reality exists, then a formal description of that is necessary. Whether it is prescriptive rather than descriptive is another question, though.

Throw in multiverse theories, and it starts looking less like God created this mathematical universe for our benefit.

The book link:
http://www.amazon.com/Dot-Infinity-Plus-Equals-Folly-ebook/dp/B00GJYJSUY/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384984803&sr=1-1&keywords=dot+dot+dot+lindsay

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Darwins +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2013, 05:01:32 PM »
On actual presuppositional apologetics, well worth checking out the awesome Reasonable Doubts podcast, episodes 97 and 98.

http://feeds.feedburner.com/reasonabledoubts/Msxh

Online Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1303
  • Darwins +91/-11
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2013, 05:14:44 PM »
The calculations are easy, any high school student could do them. It just involves things like logs and powers.

And those thing were created by humans.

Thanks for proving my point.


Without God, we wouldn't know anything. God is necessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2013, 06:13:09 PM »
I have no idea who Sye is, but it sounds like he has the right idea.

Without God, we wouldn't know anything. God is necessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

God cannot not exist.

-Horus cannot not exist
-Isis cannot not exist
-Mithra cannot not exist
-Unicorns cannot not exist
-Santa Claus cannot not exist (the presents got there somehow!)

Presuppositional apologetics (really founded by Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen, cmfnow.com) has been utterly falsified many times over. You cannot make arbitrary assertions about the nature of reality and win by default (firstly b/c anyone can do that, as I showed above). "Without God we wouldn't know anything" is an unsupported assertion. You can't know what we could or could not know without a God b/c you haven't demonstrated that there is one. You've put the cart before the horse. Like everything else in your theology you have just claimed it. But making empty claims doesn't demonstrate that your beliefs are true. So when you make claims like this I'm just going to ask: How do you know that?

Second, what makes you think there are "immaterial things"? This is just another of your assumptions, in the long line of ignorant assumptions you have made. 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 481
  • Darwins +19/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2013, 09:36:33 PM »
I have no idea who Sye is, but it sounds like he has the right idea.

Without God, we wouldn't know anything. God is necessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

God cannot not exist.
You've obviously never heard of "Illegal algorithms" then, and what about "Illegal Numbers"?
Math is a human construct that has very powerful predictive capabilities, but it's meaningless otherwise.

Also, do a bit of research before asserting that math is not a human invention, it most certainly is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mathematics
http://inventors.about.com/od/mstartinventions/a/History-Of-Mathematics.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/math4.htm

It's also interesting to note that modern mathematics uses the decimal system, why? Because we have 10 digits.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 09:49:36 PM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2013, 11:44:25 PM »
I know everything, except the things I don't.

-Nam
Everything I don't understand or don't know is stupid
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11896
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2013, 11:51:43 PM »
I know everything, except the things I don't.

-Nam
Everything I don't understand or don't know is stupid

Everything I know is smart. Everything I don't know is stupid.[1]

;)

-Nam
 1. more filler, sounds smarter :D
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2013, 03:46:11 AM »
Quote from: Dogbert
Ther's no point listening to what other people say.  They're either going to be agreeing with you or saying stupid stuff.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11896
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2013, 11:41:35 AM »
It's not that I do not want to know, it's just that I am too lazy to know. Therefore, remaining ignorant seems to be the best course of action.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Strawman

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Darwins +12/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Attempting free thought
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2013, 10:03:38 PM »
I have no idea who Sye is, but it sounds like he has the right idea.

Without God, we wouldn't know anything. God is necessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

God cannot not exist.

I have no idea who Sye is, but it sounds like he has the wrong idea.

Without God, we can know everything. God is unnecessary for all immaterial things such as math and logic. Math and logic were not created by God. Math is not an invention. That's why you can't patent a formula, because it's not created, just discovered.

God cannot exist.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:05:16 PM by Strawman »
If God exists at all he clearly wishes to reside exclusively in the imagination.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2013, 10:16:32 PM »
It's funny b/c Presuppositional Apologetics rests upon an arbitrary assertion. And as such, anyone could make a similar one which contradicts it. What an absurd method for trying to demonstrate your "worldview".

Here we go:

The Global Universe is the precondition for intelligibility. It cannot not exist!

In their same fashion we can take the Presuppositional Argument for the Non-Existence of God to market!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2700
  • Darwins +218/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburgerâ„¢
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2013, 10:39:49 PM »
Presuppositional Argument:

The universe exists -----> smokescreen -----> everything I say, is now true.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3561
  • Darwins +110/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2013, 12:08:14 AM »
Apologetics are essentially an auto-fail argument.

They fail precisely at the point when they become necessary in order to establish an argument as valid.  Presupposition apologetics is essentially the same as pulling a chess game out, and while it's still in the box declaring yourself the winner.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2013, 08:26:35 AM »
Apologetics are essentially an auto-fail argument.

They fail precisely at the point when they become necessary in order to establish an argument as valid.  Presupposition apologetics is essentially the same as pulling a chess game out, and while it's still in the box declaring yourself the winner.
Or as I call that variety of Apologetic argument, the Underwear Gnome school of theism:

Step One: Find something that current scientific models are unable to measure or sufficiently explain

Step Two: (Shrug)

Step Three: Declare the God of Christendom exists!

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline MadBunny

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3561
  • Darwins +110/-0
  • Fallen Illuminatus
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2013, 11:23:36 AM »
Step four: Prophet.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1930
  • Darwins +347/-7
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2013, 11:44:05 AM »
Presuppositional Argument:

The universe exists -----> smokescreen -----> everything I say, is now true.
Have you ever had one of those 'what if C-A-T really spelled DOG' conversations?  Presuppositional arguments always seem like those conversations.

And, with a sufficient amount of 'smoke', those conversations can feel really deep and insightful[1].  Without that 'smoke', the conversations feel idiotic and it becomes evident rather quickly that any continued engagement in the discussion is primarily a contest to see who can sound the most profound whilst actually saying as little as possible.
 1. and Funyuns become extra-tasty
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Presuppositional apologetics.
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2013, 12:55:43 PM »
Presuppositional Argument:

The universe exists -----> smokescreen -----> everything I say, is now true.
Have you ever had one of those 'what if C-A-T really spelled DOG' conversations?  Presuppositional arguments always seem like those conversations.

And, with a sufficient amount of 'smoke', those conversations can feel really deep and insightful[1].  Without that 'smoke', the conversations feel idiotic and it becomes evident rather quickly that any continued engagement in the discussion is primarily a contest to see who can sound the most profound whilst actually saying as little as possible.
 1. and Funyuns become extra-tasty

That is why apologetics are so long winded in nature. It takes lots of words to obsfucate that reality and the universe described in the Bible aren't identical.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.