Poll

Christians, please pick one after reading the OP

Demons Exist
2 (22.2%)
The Bible contains serious errors.
7 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Demons MUST exist.....  (Read 1270 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2013, 05:32:32 AM »
That describes it pretty well. Probably what it was. Thanks for taking an interest.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2013, 06:00:14 AM »
That describes it pretty well. Probably what it was. Thanks for taking an interest.

Yeah.  If you have not lived through it, there is no way to describe it.  Every parent has had the experience of comforting a child after a nightmare.  This is NOTHING like that.

And it does in fact appear like the Hollywood version of demonic possession.  Perhaps it was the inspiration for the screen writers who have put those images in our minds. 

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2013, 06:39:54 AM »
darn it - I was going to post more of less the same - Parasomnias.

So we are back to the start, Magicmiles, still no evidence of anything other than the physical.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2013, 07:42:31 AM »
I don't discount the possibility that she was seeing or sensing something demonic, because I believe that there is a demonic presence in the world. I can't prove it, but that doesn't especially concern me.

So your answer to the poll is essentially the same as Skeptics - demons exist.

Like I said, I can accept that as an answer as it is consistent with what the Bible says.  Doesn't mean I agree with the view, but it is a coherent answer to the question.

I'd really like to hear from a believer who has answered with option (2) - or is it the case I wonder that all the Christians on this site believe in literal demons in the world?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Jag

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2013, 08:05:12 AM »
When my daughter was about 3 and a half she woke up one night screaming. My wife got up to wake her from the (presumed) nightmare. It had happened before. However, she was unable to get her to calm down even when she woke her. In fact. my wife said she didn't really seem to be asleep the way she usually seemed during a nightmare. She was sitting bold upright in bed. We ended up having her in bed with us, but she kept sitting up and staring terrified at the walls and all around her. She wouldn't actually interact with us. This lasted for about half an hour and then she drifted off to sleep. The next morning she knew nothing about it.

It certainly seemed like she was seeing something that night, and we're certain she wasn't asleep.
My best friend's daughter had this happen when she was around this age as well. According to the pediatrician, it's called "night terrors" and is nothing to be worried about. It passes as the kids age a bit more.

***edited to add: I see Quesi already addressed this is more detail.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 08:07:17 AM by Jag »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2013, 09:15:48 AM »
Here's some stuff to be worried about


The Catholic paranormal investigator, brought into the doco, around 28 minutes in, is Lou Gentile, who is now dead, from cancer
http://strangeoccurrencesparanormal.weebly.com/1/post/2012/12/derren-brown-on-lou-gentile.html

Obviously, Derren has done a doco on him, in Derren Brown Investigates (Part 3). You can find this on youtube, but all spit up.

Unfortunately, they are bit vague about the group Entity attacks.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2013, 05:07:25 PM »
Skeptic

How does one challenge a demon? Do I have to believe in them first, or is my atheism for gods (and which includes demons, I guess) irrelevant? Is there like, you know, a chant or something I can do to try calling one up? And what are some really cool bad things that could happen to me if I manage to get the attention of one or more of these strange critters?

Let me know. I know they may be way too busy distorting Obama's political record, or performing oral sex on Fox News anchors as they "report", or cavorting with the Toronto mayor, but just in case one gets a break its busy schedule and has time for me, I'd like to know what I, as a mere mortal, can do to possibly encounter one of these dudes or dudettes. Or dudeits.

Anyway, please advise.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2013, 04:21:55 AM »
Are we back with the 'I can't explain something so it must be supernatural' stage again? All these night terrors and stuff does throw up a problem of explanation but we need to be able to say that we don't know what is going on and to research it rather than draw conclusions based on old books.

From watching the various suggested videos it seems to me a profitable business being an exorcist or chasing devils so the so-called experts are hardly in a position to comment on the viability of their livelihood - whether there are normal explanations for what they claim to treat.

Brain research is showing new things everyday and  we will juts have to wait for science to find the answers. - unless someone can show a real demon of course.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2013, 04:27:56 AM »
Welcome to the brand new TV quiz show "SHOW YOURSELF"
The show is simple, the first mythical creature to show themself wins.
All demons, devils, gods, angels, even a unicorn, can compete.
First to show themself wins the first prize- genuine credibility.
All runners up will be open to questions of their existence until they too have won "SHOW YOURSELF"

T&C apply- all entries must be independantly verifiable.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2013, 05:32:01 AM »
I wonder how many entries would come in.....

Actually, it sounds a bit like the Randi challenge - something that has not been won yet - if ever.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2013, 06:02:47 AM »
Technically speaking, the Randi challenge will never be won.

Because by definition, the supernatural is beyond the laws of nature, or cannot be explained by science.

Which makes it frankly impossible to achieve.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2013, 06:15:02 AM »
Technically speaking, the Randi challenge will never be won.

Because by definition, the supernatural is beyond the laws of nature, or cannot be explained by science.

Which makes it frankly impossible to achieve.

I don't see that. By our present understanding of the laws of science such things would not be explicable, true. If ghosts, for example could be investigated, though, surely our understanding of science would expand and would include such things. The only reason we don't now is that there is never anything to investigate - paranormal investigations have been going on for years with no significant results.

Also the Randi challenge is for anything that is outwith the range of our present understanding and does not have to include supernatural beings so even mind reading would count - if it could be done.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Nam

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2013, 03:42:22 PM »
I slept walked once when I was a child. Ended up 3 miles from my house. People who saw me said I was lucid but I remembered nothing, and a doctor stated I was asleep. That he had patients who done it before, they seemed quite lucid but were in fact asleep. He correlated anxiety.

I guess in reality it was a demon that possessed me since it only happened the one time.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nick

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2013, 05:04:41 PM »
I slept walked once when I was a child. Ended up 3 miles from my house. People who saw me said I was lucid but I remembered nothing, and a doctor stated I was asleep. That he had patients who done it before, they seemed quite lucid but were in fact asleep. He correlated anxiety.

I guess in reality it was a demon that possessed me since it only happened the one time.

-Nam
Probably the sand man demon.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2013, 05:09:41 PM »
I slept walked once when I was a child. Ended up 3 miles from my house. People who saw me said I was lucid but I remembered nothing, and a doctor stated I was asleep. That he had patients who done it before, they seemed quite lucid but were in fact asleep. He correlated anxiety.

I guess in reality it was a demon that possessed me since it only happened the one time.

-Nam
Probably the sand man demon.

I saw him in a movie once.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2013, 03:42:29 AM »
(anothher futile attempt to return to the OP).

So....every person on this site who believes in Jesus also believes in demons?

Yikes.

Even more reason not to let the JW's into your house.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2013, 03:53:25 AM »
I think I and others in the churches I attended would have thought of demons no so much as real but as an explanation for the various diseases Jesus 'cured' now replaced with modern theories about them. I think it is the more fundamentalists who really go for the existence of demons now. of course, the Catholic church likes anything the frightens its members into more attendance and more paying so I suppose they re keen on demons - and exorcisms too.

The trouble is that the term Christian covers a who wide realm of belief and one cannot 'brand' all Christians with belief in demons - or almost any other part of belief.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2013, 04:15:31 AM »
I think I and others in the churches I attended would have thought of demons no so much as real but as an explanation for the various diseases Jesus 'cured' ....

Trouble is, the Bible is very specific.

The demons spoke to Jesus and identified themselves.  He treated them as real.  He negotiated with them as to what he would do.  And significantly, he moved them into other creatures.

That's the critical part.  If this was a man who was insane, then Jesus could easily have taken away the insanity.  There was no need whatsoever to transfer it into other animals.  (Mind you, I could equally ask why Jesus couldn't just destroy the demons).

At the very, very best, if the demons were just insanity, Jesus lied to the people around him.  He let them believe that insanity was down to "demons" that need exorcising, rather than saying "look, sometimes people go insane, you need to treat them with counselling and therapy and medicine because you haven't got my mighty powers".

Instead, he left everyone thinking "yikes - demons are real, JESUS says so!!!", causing pain and suffering for people suffering mental health problems for hundreds, thousands of years afterwards.  It means that every poor soul with a mental health problem who was beaten or starved to "cleanse them of demons", had those things happen as a direct result of Jesus' actions with "Legion".

So the "oh, it was just another word for illness" argument, IMO, just raises a whole lot more nasty questions than it answers.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2013, 04:24:56 AM »
If demons exist, why not give one some cake, tea and negotiate.

I mean, there are so many "evil" people on earth, so why not say 50% 50% split, to heaven and hell.

Then request something like a indefinite pudding machine.

Okay...i dont know what this post was going for...
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2013, 06:48:37 PM »
If demons exist, why not give one some cake, tea and negotiate.

I mean, there are so many "evil" people on earth, so why not say 50% 50% split, to heaven and hell.

Then request something like a indefinite pudding machine.

Okay...i dont know what this post was going for...
Deals with the devil are negotiated?I have never had a demon/devil negotiate with me for my soul,no god either.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2013, 09:10:45 PM »
Perhaps we need to sacrifice one of our members to the demons to see what happens.  All in the name of scientific research of course.  Any volunteers?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2013, 01:51:37 AM »
I for one suggest Alexis.
Kidding...

Seriously though, i say Nam should do it.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2013, 03:09:16 AM »
Perhaps we need to sacrifice one of our members to the demons to see what happens.  All in the name of scientific research of course.  Any volunteers?

I'll volunteer! I am quite happy to research demons in bottles of wine or beer for example - especially as Xmas is on the way!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Demons MUST exist.....
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2013, 08:02:31 AM »
When my daughter was about 3 and a half she woke up one night screaming. My wife got up to wake her from the (presumed) nightmare. It had happened before. However, she was unable to get her to calm down even when she woke her. In fact. my wife said she didn't really seem to be asleep the way she usually seemed during a nightmare. She was sitting bold upright in bed. We ended up having her in bed with us, but she kept sitting up and staring terrified at the walls and all around her. She wouldn't actually interact with us. This lasted for about half an hour and then she drifted off to sleep. The next morning she knew nothing about it.

It certainly seemed like she was seeing something that night, and we're certain she wasn't asleep.

I accept that what you have said is absolutely true... right up until the explanation.

MM, you need to read this Night terrorWiki

Quote
During night terror bouts, patients are usually described as 'bolting upright' with their eyes wide open and a look of fear and panic on their face.

There is nothing at all supernatural about what happened to your daughter - she is quite normal and there are no demons.

I think you should consider this episode with your daughter as being a warning not to attribute the supernatural for events that you simply cannot explain. It is better to say, "I don't know why it happened." than give some possible supernatural explanation. The latter is all too readily believed as evidence by those of a disposition to believe in such things.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”