Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 22034 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #812 on: December 14, 2013, 03:37:54 AM »
What the hell has evolution got to do with thermodynamics?
Facts are facts so please start listening when people give you actual facts. The picture shows our evolution.
What point are we in gods image?

Theists like using the second law of thermodynamics to disprove evolution, ignoring all other proofs and evidences saying otherwise.

Except for that pesky entropy.

Define entropy, as the universe can only turn entirely into matter, or energy.

If anything, we should've started with humans and moved towards single cell amoebas.

Yes, because that is totally why we see modern species evolving, becoming more advanced and better suited for their environments. And why modern technology is getting better everyday.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #813 on: December 14, 2013, 03:38:11 AM »
Why do you side step evolution?
Is it an uncomfortable truth that you cannot directly answer as it is not covered by the bible?

If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.

I'm using the simplest possible form of logic here. Don't you think that's something God would know?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #814 on: December 14, 2013, 03:38:49 AM »
That isn't how God conducts Himself. He is not the one that needs to prove himself to you. You need to prove yourself to Him.

As far as I'm concerned, your god does need to prove himself to Me.  In all of My 56 years I haven't heard so much as a *peep* from Yahweh.  Never felt its presence, never received any messages, never seen him in a dream.  It's like he doesn't even exist.   ;)

I also think you're a bit confused about the sun's role in evolutionary biology.  The sun is gradually burning itself out, over billions of years, but as it does so it actually increases the energy in our biosphere.  Hence, entropy does not significantly affect evolution.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #815 on: December 14, 2013, 03:39:25 AM »
If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.

I'm using the simplest possible form of logic here. Don't you think that's something God would know?

Wait...you literally take in the bible?...All of it?... 9_6

So does this imply that no level of evidence will compel you to the truth?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #816 on: December 14, 2013, 03:41:02 AM »
A different interpretation of the fossils is that they are different species that God created, instead of the fossils being a step by step process into modern man.
In this case different means wrong.
Come on Skep facts are facts and evolution is fact.
Perhaps you could just tear the creation pages out?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #817 on: December 14, 2013, 03:42:17 AM »
If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.

I'm using the simplest possible form of logic here. Don't you think that's something God would know?

Wait...you literally take in the bible?...All of it?... 9_6

So does this imply that no level of evidence will compel you to the truth?

If there was compelling evidence. Just because a lot of creation scientists are free thinkers and go against the grain of what the majority of secular scientists think, does not make us automatically wrong.

I would think atheists would understand going against the grain and thinking for yourself.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #818 on: December 14, 2013, 03:44:19 AM »
If there was compelling evidence.

Do i seriously have to post several links, just to get from you "That is not enough"?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #819 on: December 14, 2013, 03:44:59 AM »
If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.
I'm using the simplest possible form of logic here. Don't you think that's something God would know?
And there it is folks- IF IT ISN'T IN THE BIBLE IT CAN'T BE TRUE
Your logic circuit is truly dead, I rest my case.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #820 on: December 14, 2013, 03:45:26 AM »
In this case different means wrong.
Come on Skep facts are facts and evolution is fact.
Perhaps you could just tear the creation pages out?

Well if you say it is fact, then it must be fact.

I am sorry, but I am not a fresh young mind in the 1st grade willing to believe anything a grown up says. Dawkins wants to hook 'em while they're young so it's ingrained in their minds and they will feel weird if they doubt evolution.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #821 on: December 14, 2013, 03:47:52 AM »
That isn't how God conducts Himself. He is not the one that needs to prove himself to you. You need to prove yourself to Him.

As far as I'm concerned, your god does need to prove himself to Me.  In all of My 56 years I haven't heard so much as a *peep* from Yahweh.  Never felt its presence, never received any messages, never seen him in a dream.  It's like he doesn't even exist.   ;)

I also think you're a bit confused about the sun's role in evolutionary biology.  The sun is gradually burning itself out, over billions of years, but as it does so it actually increases the energy in our biosphere.  Hence, entropy does not significantly affect evolution.

You haven't heard a peep from Him because you're an atheist. God does not show up where He's not wanted. That's rude behavior.

Do you show up to people's homes uninvited and just walk in the front door and plop on their couch and turn on the tv?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #822 on: December 14, 2013, 03:48:21 AM »
Just because a lot of creation scientists are free thinkers and go against the grain of what the majority of secular scientists think, does not make us automatically wrong.

It also doesn't make them right.  That's something that each scientist has to demonstrate, experiment by experiment, regardless of personal beliefs.

The reason that mainstream science is laughing at creation science is that the verifiable facts have come down overwhelmingly in favour of mainstream science, and no creation scientist has yet gotten past the hypothesis stage to formulate an actual theory.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #823 on: December 14, 2013, 03:49:54 AM »
I am sorry, but I am not a fresh young mind in the 1st grade willing to believe anything a grown up says. Dawkins wants to hook 'em while they're young so it's ingrained in their minds and they will feel weird if they doubt evolution.
That is probably the funniest quote from you yet.
Non delusional folks will get it- I doubt you will.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #824 on: December 14, 2013, 03:50:16 AM »
If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.
I'm using the simplest possible form of logic here. Don't you think that's something God would know?
And there it is folks- IF IT ISN'T IN THE BIBLE IT CAN'T BE TRUE
Your logic circuit is truly dead, I rest my case.

No, that isn't the argument.
The argument is that God would get our story of origins correct. Lots of things are true that aren't in the bible. Cars work and cars are not mentioned in the Bible.

Please try and listen to what we Christians have to say first.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #825 on: December 14, 2013, 03:52:39 AM »
Just because a lot of creation scientists are free thinkers and go against the grain of what the majority of secular scientists think, does not make us automatically wrong.

It also doesn't make them right.  That's something that each scientist has to demonstrate, experiment by experiment, regardless of personal beliefs.

The reason that mainstream science is laughing at creation science is that the verifiable facts have come down overwhelmingly in favour of mainstream science, and no creation scientist has yet gotten past the hypothesis stage to formulate an actual theory.

trueorigin.org has plenty of evidence. It's the best creationist website. It's jam-packed with rebuttals to talk origins statements.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #826 on: December 14, 2013, 03:53:36 AM »
No, that isn't the argument.
The argument is that God would get our story of origins correct. Lots of things are true that aren't in the bible. Cars work and cars are not mentioned in the Bible.
Please try and listen to what we Christians have to say first.
No, you listen- The point is not that things outside of the bible are true its that the things in the bible are not true.
Simple.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #827 on: December 14, 2013, 03:54:25 AM »
I am sorry, but I am not a fresh young mind in the 1st grade willing to believe anything a grown up says. Dawkins wants to hook 'em while they're young so it's ingrained in their minds and they will feel weird if they doubt evolution.
That is probably the funniest quote from you yet.
Non delusional folks will get it- I doubt you will.

Atheists have become what they hate.
Not all of them of course, but a lot of them have.
Dawkins is a prime example of an atheist fundamentalist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #828 on: December 14, 2013, 03:57:06 AM »
No, that isn't the argument.
The argument is that God would get our story of origins correct. Lots of things are true that aren't in the bible. Cars work and cars are not mentioned in the Bible.
Please try and listen to what we Christians have to say first.
No, you listen- The point is not that things outside of the bible are true its that the things in the bible are not true.
Simple.

You have not explained why this stuff is false. What about the chariots from Pharaoh's army on the sea floor? Did Pharaoh try to cross a sea with horses on purpose? Or was it from the parting of the Red Sea and they drowned while racing across?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #829 on: December 14, 2013, 04:00:41 AM »
You haven't heard a peep from Him because you're an atheist. God does not show up where He's not wanted. That's rude behavior.

Do you show up to people's homes uninvited and just walk in the front door and plop on their couch and turn on the tv?

And yet your alleged god supposedly sends many of the deceased where they don't want to go, and doesn't let them leave.  That's considerably worse than walking in and flopping down in front of the TV.  This "God does not show up where He's not wanted" is nothing more than a flimsy excuse, IMO.

As for the lack of evolutionary information in the Bible, that's simply because the authors of the books lacked the scientific background to write about evolution.  They wrote about what they knew:  Towers to heaven instead of rocket ships, chariots instead of automobiles, and circles with a circumference of 3 rather than pi.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #830 on: December 14, 2013, 04:01:40 AM »
Atheists have become what they hate.
Not all of them of course, but a lot of them have.
Just what do you think atheists hate?
Quote
Dawkins is a prime example of an atheist fundamentalist.
What do you mean by that? Mr Dawkins must be one of the most calmest people I have ever seen.
He certainly does not come across as someone filled with hate.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #831 on: December 14, 2013, 04:04:58 AM »
You haven't heard a peep from Him because you're an atheist. God does not show up where He's not wanted. That's rude behavior.

Do you show up to people's homes uninvited and just walk in the front door and plop on their couch and turn on the tv?

And yet your alleged god supposedly sends many of the deceased where they don't want to go, and doesn't let them leave.  That's considerably worse than walking in and flopping down in front of the TV.  This "God does not show up where He's not wanted" is nothing more than a flimsy excuse, IMO.

As for the lack of evolutionary information in the Bible, that's simply because the authors of the books lacked the scientific background to write about evolution.  They wrote about what they knew:  Towers to heaven instead of rocket ships, chariots instead of automobiles, and circles with a circumference of 3 rather than pi.

Bible does not say Pi equals 3. Have you read any apologetic websites?

It's a running joke in Christian circles to make a bet on how long before an atheist brings up the old "pi=3" routine.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #832 on: December 14, 2013, 04:11:28 AM »
Bible does not say Pi equals 3.

I know that; the Bible doesn't even mention pi.  It does, however, describe a circular object as 10 across and 30 in circumference.  At very least, a book co-authored by a god should have said something like "31 in circumference" or "slightly more than 30."  Better yet, your god could have provided an algorithm for figuring out the ratio of circumference to diameter.  Just about everybody in the ancient world -- Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians, Babylonians and others -- got closer than the Biblical estimate.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #833 on: December 14, 2013, 04:44:44 AM »
If we evolved, God would've mentioned that in the creation account.
And just which creation account would that be?
There are two stories in Genesis, did god have to make two guesses?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 04:47:58 AM by Jonny-UK »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #834 on: December 14, 2013, 05:54:16 AM »


A different interpretation of the fossils is

something made the fuck up by liars.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #835 on: December 14, 2013, 08:49:50 AM »
When God tells you to do something, you do it. Period.

Really?  Let's put it to the test.  Ask your god to come here, right here and right now, and tell Me to do something.  (throws Canadian $5 bill on table) Bet you he can't do it.

What is really disturbing is God could very well be the voice in his head instead of some anchent fairy tail.

The image of Ralph from The Simpsons talking to an imaginary leprechaun comes to mind.

"ya know what ya got to do now laddy, ... BURN EM ALL".
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #836 on: December 14, 2013, 09:18:14 AM »

You haven't heard a peep from Him because you're an atheist. God does not show up where He's not wanted. That's rude behavior.

In short, god behaves exactly as we'd expect him to if he was nonexistence.

Funny how that always works...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #837 on: December 14, 2013, 10:20:01 AM »
What is really disturbing is God could very well be the voice in his head instead of some anchent fairy tail.

Like a tulpa?

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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #838 on: December 14, 2013, 11:21:28 AM »
Just because a lot of creation scientists are free thinkers...
You're seriously calling ignorant close-minded creationist "scientists" free-thinkers? :laugh:
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #839 on: December 14, 2013, 11:36:06 AM »
This conversation with Skep has turned in to a  bigger time waster than professional wrestling. It is simply not worth the effort. For either side. As it goes on and on, the world Skep is defining travels further and further from ours, as he comes up with new excuses for our every point.

We've driven him deeper into his personal fortress. That is not progress.

Advancing is impossible. There is no meeting of the minds here, only head butting. We humans haven't evolved enough to have built-in solutions for such problems, and religion isn't complete enough to do the job, so neither side has the tools to provide a solution. What we have now is a couple of twains that shall never meet.

IRL, I have many religious friends. We just don't talk about it. That way we can do things that are useful.

I suggest that we all find better things to do. Or else Skeptic will have to put a footnote on his claim about bringing people to god since 1995. He'll have to say "Except in 2013".
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #840 on: December 14, 2013, 11:45:02 AM »
When God tells you to do something, you do it. Period.

Really?  Let's put it to the test.  Ask your god to come here, right here and right now, and tell Me to do something.  (throws Canadian $5 bill on table) Bet you he can't do it.

That isn't how God conducts Himself. He is not the one that needs to prove himself to you. You need to prove yourself to Him.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

Then out loud I said "Why?".
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks