Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 15473 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #725 on: December 13, 2013, 02:09:53 AM »

Why do they form crystals at that temperature?

This is the stuff they don't dare speak about in science classrooms.

You are credulously looking for teleology with no sufficient reason for thinking there is any. It is another example of your confirmation bias.

A simple shrug of the shoulders would have sufficed.

No actually, it wouldn't have - b/c that would not have addressed the point I wished to make.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #726 on: December 13, 2013, 02:13:15 AM »

Remember Einstein? "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Or is this one of Einstein's "wrong" statements that we shouldn't trust?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion

Einstein penned the letter on January 3 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt. The letter went on public sale a year later and has remained in private hands ever since.

In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #727 on: December 13, 2013, 02:16:15 AM »
Why do they form crystals at that temperature?
The answer is "because it's a physical property of water".  But asking why like that is basically meaningless.  It's like asking why the color red is red.  We can describe the behavior or characteristics of something like water, but the only answer we can give beyond that is "because that's the way the universe works".

Quote from: skeptic54768
This is the stuff they don't dare speak about in science classrooms.
It's not that they don't dare speak about it, it's that it's not science.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #728 on: December 13, 2013, 02:17:24 AM »
Cars can be demonstrated to exist and work. Same with many other things in daily life.

Immaterialism has been proven based on empiricism. It's a much simpler explanation than materialism. Occam's razor says to cut out materialism.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #729 on: December 13, 2013, 02:21:53 AM »
Why do they form crystals at that temperature?

Are you joking?
Do you know anything about atoms and how temperature affects them?
If you need to know, the basics is:
Cold= atoms get closer together because they have less energy.
Hot= atoms start moving, bouncing around, moving outwards, because they have more energy.

How is this hard for you to comprehend?

This is the stuff they don't dare speak about in science classrooms.

Humorously, as far as i know, every school explains how atoms form solids, gasses, and liquids.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #730 on: December 13, 2013, 02:22:55 AM »
You should be. Immaterialism has been proven based on empiricism. It's a much simpler explanation than materialism. Occam's razor says to cut out materialism.
Occam's razor isn't about simplicity, it's about removing assumptions.  And immaterialism is nothing but an assumption.  It cannot be proven by empiricism, because empiricism is about sensory experience - but as you acknowledge below, something that is presumably immaterial cannot be experienced with the senses.  Thus, you've contradicted yourself.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Science has never been able to empirically observe the "you" that is within you. Even when you look in a mirror you can't see the "you."
That presupposes that there is an "immaterial you" to be seen in the first place.  This cannot be proven empirically, because there is no way to observe this supposed "immaterial you" in the first place. 

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #731 on: December 13, 2013, 02:25:12 AM »
Why do they form crystals at that temperature?

Are you joking?
Do you know anything about atoms and how temperature affects them?
If you need to know, the basics is:
Cold= atoms get closer together because they have less energy.
Hot= atoms start moving, bouncing around, moving outwards, because they have more energy.

How is this hard for you to comprehend?

This is the stuff they don't dare speak about in science classrooms.

Humorously, as far as i know, every school explains how atoms form solids, gasses, and liquids.

I see you aren't getting the point of this conversation.

Why do atoms get closer together when they have less energy?
I suppose God could make atoms move around quickly when they have less energy if He wanted to.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #732 on: December 13, 2013, 02:27:22 AM »

I see you aren't getting the point of this conversation.

Why do atoms get closer together when they have less energy?
I suppose God could make atoms move around quickly when they have less energy if He wanted to.

So you were LYING when you said you are not using god of the gaps arguments - b/c you are using them. Wherever you personally don't understand something (how's, whys, etc) you say, "Aha! God did it!" That is textbook god of the gaps fallacy. Sorry, stop using it b/c it fails...every single time you try to use it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #733 on: December 13, 2013, 02:30:19 AM »
I see you aren't getting the point of this conversation.

I do, its just that it is immensely stupid.

Why do atoms get closer together when they have less energy?

Because it is a universal constant law?
Why do bricks fall when you drop them?

I suppose God could make atoms move around quickly when they have less energy if He wanted to.

An omnipotent being could do anything, but such omnipotent beings do not exist.
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #734 on: December 13, 2013, 02:32:05 AM »
Humorously, as far as i know, every school explains how atoms form solids, gasses, and liquids.

I think he is asking us to marvel at the way water forms ice at 0C, because if it just happened that ice formed at a 50C higher temperature than every other fluid, then life wouldn't be possible, because it would be frozen - unless it adapted to higher temperatures. We should be grateful that God made the major component of life have that freezing temperature. Just think what would happen if water froze at -30C. We'd have no snow, and no ice ages, except on the South Pole, and we'd have a permanent global warming, instead of occasionally.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #735 on: December 13, 2013, 02:33:28 AM »
Why do atoms get closer together when they have less energy?
I suppose God could make atoms move around quickly when they have less energy if He wanted to.

I suppose God could have written about it in the Bible, to prove that he was the one who designed it this way.

DODGE EXPECTED.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #736 on: December 13, 2013, 02:57:38 AM »
Hey Skep, why do animals have souls?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #737 on: December 13, 2013, 06:31:59 AM »
Based on empiricism. I empirically see people making laws. This means there is a law maker for the universe. Simple deduction.

Do you understand the difference between prescription and description?  Laws such as "speeding is punishable by a fine and/or jail time" are prescriptive.  Laws such as "matter can neither be created nor destroyed" are descriptive.  The former laws need a lawmaker (or lawmakers).  The latter do not.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #738 on: December 13, 2013, 06:32:26 AM »

Why do they form crystals at that temperature?

they don't always



details of the relationship between freezing point and pressure can be viewed here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#Phases
This is the stuff they don't dare speak about in science classrooms.

This is exactly the stuff they speak about in science class rooms
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 06:55:18 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #739 on: December 13, 2013, 06:36:32 AM »
they don't always
*snip*

Ahh, the good old pressure factor.

Its amazing that the earths core is solid...and yet is hot enough that it should be a liquid.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #740 on: December 13, 2013, 07:01:47 AM »
When you put Skeptic under pressure he turns into a gibbering wreck ! ;)
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #741 on: December 13, 2013, 07:06:14 AM »
they don't always
*snip*

Ahh, the good old pressure factor.

Its amazing that the earths core is solid...and yet is hot enough that it should be a liquid.

Yes. Bizarrely this observation supports your earlier comments about the movement of atoms here;

Its almost as if scientists have thought about this and come up with testable models  :o

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #742 on: December 13, 2013, 07:09:57 AM »
When you put Skeptic under pressure he turns into a gibbering wreck ! ;)

There is a scientific model for that too;

The heat of the cheat is inversely proportionate to the angle of the fangle

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #743 on: December 13, 2013, 07:11:26 AM »
Well i was right to an extent, if you assume normal pressure.

But at high or low pressure, temperature doesn't always determine the state of matter...

I still don't understand how ice crystals forming implies there must be god...
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #744 on: December 13, 2013, 07:14:09 AM »
^^Excellent Mr Jason
I suspect that the simple pressure cooker must be a product of satan, water not boiling at 100 degrees, its unholy!
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #745 on: December 13, 2013, 07:21:43 AM »
^^Excellent Mr Jason
I suspect that the simple pressure cooker must be a product of satan, water not boiling at 100 degrees, its unholy!

Yes, altitude must also be the work of the devil too as that changes the boiling point of water as well. But god made mountains...Ech, I'm so confused  :-[

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #746 on: December 13, 2013, 07:33:37 AM »
Perhaps Satan only roams the earth where it is not standard atmospheric pressure.
Standard air pressure= gods land
Non Standard air pressure= devils country

Note to Skeptic- Don't fly, it really is against god's laws. Aircraft must be the work of Satan!
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #747 on: December 13, 2013, 07:34:24 AM »
Well i was right to an extent, if you assume normal pressure.

You were totally right, the fact that pressure alters the movement between states evidences what you said.  :)

But at high or low pressure, temperature doesn't always determine the state of matter...

As above, this strengthens your argument.

I still don't understand how ice crystals forming implies there must be god...

because ice crystal formation is uniform and constant dependant on temperature[1]  because god has decided this and this is an inviolable law[2]
Antifreeze is also the devils work BTW.
 1. Which it isn't.
 2. Which it isn't

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #748 on: December 13, 2013, 07:53:55 AM »
You clearly have no idea what scientific laws are.

Can you explain why 2 hydrogen atoms bond with an oxygen atom?
After you explain that, can you explain why it forms water and not something else?

Appeal to ignorance, your argument is invalid.


and again with the Underwear gnomes theism? Why? It doesn't work, and it doesn't impress.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 07:59:00 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #749 on: December 13, 2013, 08:26:39 AM »

Based on empiricism. I empirically see people making laws. This means there is a law maker for the universe. Simple deduction.

God gave us deduction to deduce his existence.

So you're saying God failed then?  If I am capable of drawing a concluclusion based on reason that there likely is no god then God failed.

I would guess your response would be that I'm using false deduction.  Why does false deduction exist then?  God would have had to directly or indirectly create false deduction.

Which is more likely then?:

God created humans capable of false deduction.  False deduction potentially denies God's existence, making it possible for a perceived valid reason to not believe in God.  Why God would do this is unclear; is God evil or is God a trickster?

OR

Humans are capable of false deduction based on limited knowledge, leading to the creation of god(s).
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #750 on: December 13, 2013, 08:40:22 AM »
Can you explain why 2 hydrogen atoms bond with an oxygen atom?
After you explain that, can you explain why it forms water and not something else?

Two hydrogen atoms bond with an oxygen atom because it makes the molecules outer electron shell full, thus forming a neutral molecule which will not decay.

It forms water because water consists of H2O...

May i ask...did you actually pass highschool?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #751 on: December 13, 2013, 08:55:26 AM »
I guess this is all funny until you realise that some children are being taught nonsense as fact.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/richard-dawkins-i-never-meet-people-who-disagree-with-me-2080451.html
The following is a part from the above article-

Quote
Professor Dawkins recently visited an Islamic school in Leicester – "a lovely school, beautifully appointed, a lot of money spent on it, a lovely headmaster" – where no one among the staff and pupils, not even the science teacher, believes in evolution.

There he was informed that the Prophet had said that salt and fresh water do not mix, and therefore it must be true. He wished afterwards that he had had the presence of mind to send for some salt water and fresh water and mix them in front of their unbelieving eyes.

Some kids are going to look really dumb if they start quoting that when they are older.

"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #752 on: December 13, 2013, 08:58:46 AM »
In addition to A&A's answer above

Quote from: skeptic54768 link=topic=25868.msg589250#msg589250

Can you explain why 2 hydrogen atoms bond with an oxygen atom?
After you explain that, can you explain why it forms water and not something else?

Because that is the chemical composition of water. If oxygen bonds with something else it makes a different compound.

This is really a very basic principle.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 10:54:41 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #753 on: December 13, 2013, 09:05:29 AM »
I wonder what he will ask next.

"Ohh wow, water...like...turns into STEAM! After 100 degrees Celsius! Only a god could cause this to happen! Ever wonder why O2 makes oxygen? I bet you didn't! Because....like...science teachers are hiding the truth."
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