Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 16235 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #638 on: December 12, 2013, 07:25:09 AM »
No, {Andromeda Galaxy} isn't evidence. Ever heard of in situ? That's how God created the light. It's the exact same thing as God creating Adam and he looks 25 years old even though he is 0 years old.

God makes it so simple for us to comprehend.

Ridiculous.  Absolutely ridiculous.

I am now convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that you never had any intention of taking our scientific information seriously.

I was convinced, even before he came to the forum. I was born pre-convinced.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #639 on: December 12, 2013, 07:36:06 AM »
Welcome to my world!

I have evidence of God that I accept. But you atheists won't accept it.

Now, I'm not gonna cry about it, but hopefully you can see things from my side of the fence.

I think I've asked about 3 times, but what evidence do you have ALL the Bible is true?

I know you say that god or a demon wrote some blood on the wall, and you had sex with your dog, but what evidence do you have that endorses the entire Bible?

Did the blood on the wall say: "Skep, the entire Bible is true! And I wouldn't lie to you, because I'm not a demon!"

Or, was it something more vague than that, and you are making stuff up?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #640 on: December 12, 2013, 08:03:58 AM »
Are you afraid of saying you are completely wrong and there is no god ?

Absolutely not.

I walked on that path for many years of my life. I am not afraid of being wrong. I admitted many times that I could be wrong and you atheists could be right. I just don't believe atheism is right anymore.

What's there to be scared of?

Then why the accusation we are afraid?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #641 on: December 12, 2013, 08:21:32 AM »

No, that isn't evidence.



The only way that isn't evidence is if you accept some sort of ad hoc magic man did it explanation
 that only a simpleton would accept.



Ever heard of in situ? That's how God created the light. It's the exact same thing as God creating Adam and he looks 25 years old even though he is 0 years old.

God makes it so simple for us to comprehend.

Ohh. Yeah. &)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #642 on: December 12, 2013, 08:40:23 AM »
Sounds like skep is still in desperate need of a reality check, so out of the goodness of my heart, I'm going to provide him with one: skepdude, the cake is a lie.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #643 on: December 12, 2013, 11:43:19 AM »
Are you joking?
Atoms don't just change rates of decay depending on some guys mind perceiving it.

Have you heard of the double slit experiment?

When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.

OBSERVATION changes the electrons! It proves intelligence behind the universe.

Many scientists are now finding more and more evidence that consciousness is responsible for the universe, instead of the universe being responsible for consciousness, which is the only choice of the atheistic materialist.

Just remarkable.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #644 on: December 12, 2013, 12:03:34 PM »
Have you heard of the double slit experiment?

When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.
No, it indicates that photons/electrons can be affected by really, really tiny influences.  They have little or no mass, so even really tiny influences can cause them to act in odd ways.  Indeed, that's the point behind Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - in order to measure the trajectory of an electron, we have to apply enough energy to make its current position very uncertain, and vice versa.  That's why the double-slit experiment works the way it does.

Quote from: skeptic54768
OBSERVATION changes the electrons! It proves intelligence behind the universe.
No, it actually doesn't.  What it proves is that the mere presence of something that can influence a photon or an electron causes it to be influenced in some way.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Many scientists are now finding more and more evidence that consciousness is responsible for the universe, instead of the universe being responsible for consciousness, which is the only choice of the atheistic materialist.
I honestly doubt this.  You see, the problem is that you have to explain where that consciousness came from in the first place.  Something has to be responsible for it to have come into existence in the first place.  Simply claiming that consciousness is responsible for the universe doesn't really tell us anything useful - because it doesn't tell us where that consciousness came from.

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #645 on: December 12, 2013, 12:08:32 PM »
Like this?

My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #646 on: December 12, 2013, 12:11:36 PM »
Have you heard of the double slit experiment?

When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.
No, it indicates that photons/electrons can be affected by really, really tiny influences.  They have little or no mass, so even really tiny influences can cause them to act in odd ways.  Indeed, that's the point behind Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - in order to measure the trajectory of an electron, we have to apply enough energy to make its current position very uncertain, and vice versa.  That's why the double-slit experiment works the way it does.

Quote from: skeptic54768
OBSERVATION changes the electrons! It proves intelligence behind the universe.
No, it actually doesn't.  What it proves is that the mere presence of something that can influence a photon or an electron causes it to be influenced in some way.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Many scientists are now finding more and more evidence that consciousness is responsible for the universe, instead of the universe being responsible for consciousness, which is the only choice of the atheistic materialist.
I honestly doubt this.  You see, the problem is that you have to explain where that consciousness came from in the first place.  Something has to be responsible for it to have come into existence in the first place.  Simply claiming that consciousness is responsible for the universe doesn't really tell us anything useful - because it doesn't tell us where that consciousness came from.

So they do different things when they are being watched. And you don't find this extraordinary? Why do they act differently when they are being watched? There's no scientific explanation for it.

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #647 on: December 12, 2013, 12:23:10 PM »
^The thing that you're missing is that the ordered systems we have didn't come about because of randomness - though randomness certainly was involved.  They came about because of the various physical laws and forces (electromagnetism, gravity, thermodynamics, etc).  Electromagnetism produces molecules that are not random.  Gravity causes mass to attract other mass, which is not random.  Thermodynamics causes effects that are not random.  Chemical bonds cause chemical structures that are not random.  Evolution causes life-forms that are not random.

That's the point.  You don't have to have some intelligent designer make everything in order to produce ordered systems, or else have them produced by randomness.  That's a false dichotomy; we have at least one other option - that ordered systems come about naturally through the deterministic action of physical laws and forces.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #648 on: December 12, 2013, 12:26:41 PM »
So they do different things when they are being watched. And you don't find this extraordinary? Why do they act differently when they are being watched? There's no scientific explanation for it.

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.

First, do you understand what being "observed" means in physics. Do you understand that the meaning of "observation" in physics is not the same as "observing" a pretty girl? Let me know you are clear on this before we continue this discussion.

And while you're at it, could you tell us your definition of an orderly system. I look at the moon, for instance, and see all those craters caused by speeding meteors and not only do I see no orderliness in the first place, I also don't see those craters all lined up nice and neat and in ascending or descending sizes, like I would expect if everything were orderly.

Anyway, assure us that you know what an "observation" is and we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it isn't worth my time or trouble. My other posts, long, heartfelt, etc. didn't seem to impress you, so I'm not really in the mood to write much more until I know you're willing to do your part and read the things.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #649 on: December 12, 2013, 12:27:29 PM »
^The thing that you're missing is that the ordered systems we have didn't come about because of randomness - though randomness certainly was involved.  They came about because of the various physical laws and forces (electromagnetism, gravity, thermodynamics, etc).  Electromagnetism produces molecules that are not random.  Gravity causes mass to attract other mass, which is not random.  Thermodynamics causes effects that are not random.  Chemical bonds cause chemical structures that are not random.  Evolution causes life-forms that are not random.

That's the point.  You don't have to have some intelligent designer make everything in order to produce ordered systems, or else have them produced by randomness.  That's a false dichotomy; we have at least one other option - that ordered systems come about naturally through the deterministic action of physical laws and forces.

Who made those laws?
Who caused gravity to affect mass?
Who made thermodynamics?
Who made the chemical bonds?

If you say, "that's just how it is," then you will be sounding like a theist does when we speak of God.

Science can explain what gravity does but it can not explain why gravity is the way it is. You guys even say that these laws weren't always around until after the Big Bang. So you believe these laws formed on their own for no reason?

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #650 on: December 12, 2013, 12:29:07 PM »
So they do different things when they are being watched. And you don't find this extraordinary? Why do they act differently when they are being watched? There's no scientific explanation for it.

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.

First, do you understand what being "observed" means in physics. Do you understand that the meaning of "observation" in physics is not the same as "observing" a pretty girl? Let me know you are clear on this before we continue this discussion.

And while you're at it, could you tell us your definition of an orderly system. I look at the moon, for instance, and see all those craters caused by speeding meteors and not only do I see no orderliness in the first place, I also don't see those craters all lined up nice and neat and in ascending or descending sizes, like I would expect if everything were orderly.

Anyway, assure us that you know what an "observation" is and we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it isn't worth my time or trouble. My other posts, long, heartfelt, etc. didn't seem to impress you, so I'm not really in the mood to write much more until I know you're willing to do your part and read the things.

http://www.highexistence.com/this-will-mindfuck-you-the-double-slit-experiment/
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #651 on: December 12, 2013, 12:37:00 PM »
When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.

skeptic think about what you're typing. You're getting into some heavy woo. Subatomic particles don't know they're being watched. They don't have eyes or a consciousness, and they aren't self-aware. If you stick your finger in a glass of water you're going to alter the state of the water; the water doesn't know your finger is there and quickly decides to react to it. Your argument about subatomic particles is very similar. The observance on our end alters the state of the electron. That's all there is to it. No woo required.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #652 on: December 12, 2013, 12:37:48 PM »
(not really a)Skeptic, this is still just Underwear Gnome Theology.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #653 on: December 12, 2013, 12:40:05 PM »
When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.

skeptic think about what you're typing. You're getting into some heavy woo. Subatomic particles don't know they're being watched. They don't have eyes or a consciousness, and they aren't self-aware. If you stick your finger in a glass of water you're going to alter the state of the water; the water doesn't know your finger is there and quickly decides to react to it. Your argument about subatomic particles is very similar. The observance on our end alters the state of the electron. That's all there is to it. No woo required.

And yet atheists would have us believe that we are self-aware and we nothing but atoms. But atoms are not self-aware....

This is a big contradiction and illustrates the problem with materialism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #654 on: December 12, 2013, 12:50:46 PM »
When light is observed, it acts as particles. When the light is not observed, it acts as a particle and a wave. This indicates they know they are being watched.

skeptic think about what you're typing. You're getting into some heavy woo. Subatomic particles don't know they're being watched. They don't have eyes or a consciousness, and they aren't self-aware. If you stick your finger in a glass of water you're going to alter the state of the water; the water doesn't know your finger is there and quickly decides to react to it. Your argument about subatomic particles is very similar. The observance on our end alters the state of the electron. That's all there is to it. No woo required.

And yet atheists would have us believe that we are self-aware and we nothing but atoms. But atoms are not self-aware....

This is a big contradiction and illustrates the problem with materialism.

Fallacy of composition, your argument is invalid
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #655 on: December 12, 2013, 12:57:44 PM »
Fallacy of composition, your argument is invalid

Please explain how we can think if atoms can not think.

A memory in your mind is immaterial, not material.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #656 on: December 12, 2013, 12:57:55 PM »
So they do different things when they are being watched. And you don't find this extraordinary? Why do they act differently when they are being watched? There's no scientific explanation for it.

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.

First, do you understand what being "observed" means in physics. Do you understand that the meaning of "observation" in physics is not the same as "observing" a pretty girl? Let me know you are clear on this before we continue this discussion.

And while you're at it, could you tell us your definition of an orderly system. I look at the moon, for instance, and see all those craters caused by speeding meteors and not only do I see no orderliness in the first place, I also don't see those craters all lined up nice and neat and in ascending or descending sizes, like I would expect if everything were orderly.

Anyway, assure us that you know what an "observation" is and we can continue this discussion. Otherwise it isn't worth my time or trouble. My other posts, long, heartfelt, etc. didn't seem to impress you, so I'm not really in the mood to write much more until I know you're willing to do your part and read the things.

http://www.highexistence.com/this-will-mindfuck-you-the-double-slit-experiment/

You did not answer my question. Sadly I now have to leave my trusty keyboard and do other things in life. I do ask that you don't go all New Age (as per your link) on us as well as being a fundy.  That's a combo I don't think I could stand. (I mean new age in going "wow, it must be a higher power". The experiment discussed in the link in pretty incredible. Your sources reinterpretations suck big time, and are way too new agey for me)

But lucky you, you don't have to ignore me more until this evening. So there is no need for me to say "Enjoy your day".


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #657 on: December 12, 2013, 01:11:19 PM »
Fallacy of composition, your argument is invalid

Please explain how we can think if atoms can not think.

A memory in your mind is immaterial, not material.

Fallacy of composition:The idea that  A quality possessed by a whole is  necessarily possessed by it's parts and vice versa.

Example: Both sodium and chlorine are toxic. Therefore any combination of the two  must be toxic.

Just because atoms are not self aware does not mean they can not combine to form something self aware. My individual neurons aren't self aware, but my brain certainly is...er... well... most people's brains are at least. ;)
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Online pianodwarf

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #658 on: December 12, 2013, 01:13:19 PM »
Fallacy of composition, your argument is invalid

Please explain how we can think if atoms can not think.

You are saying that if atoms cannot think, then something composed of atoms cannot think.  Hatter23 is telling you that you are committing the fallacy of composition, which you are.

Here's another example:  Hydrogen and oxygen are both gasses at room temperature, therefore anything made of hydrogen and oxygen must also be a gas at room temperature.  This is the fallacy of composition (and is also obviously false).

Quote
A memory in your mind is immaterial, not material.

Wrong.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #659 on: December 12, 2013, 01:18:56 PM »
So they do different things when they are being watched. And you don't find this extraordinary? Why do they act differently when they are being watched? There's no scientific explanation for it.

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.

First, do you understand what being "observed" means in physics. Do you understand that the meaning of "observation" in physics is not the same as "observing" a pretty girl? Let me know you are clear on this before we continue this discussion.

Oh come on, SkepTroll, you can do better than this. At this point, you are not even trying and that's really quite disappointing. Could you, maybe keep the pretense up a little longer by, say, actually engaging a point instead of throwing out some more diversions?

As I'm sure you know, Seafood allergies are quite common and, besides being stinky, there's an ever increasing danger of anaphylaxis due to your throwing around so much red-herring. You don't want to be responsible for those deaths, do you?

Do you really want us to believe that you think that subatomic particles come over all shy when someone is looking at them in their underwear? Even a child knows better. Further, considering the litigious nature of America, you'd think someone would have launched a class-action suit claiming stalking were that the case. Yes, I know, it's not high on the list of required skills for a fundamentalist, but think, man. Think.

But if you really want to play with wave-particle duality and get all woo about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, then you should return the favour. Please explain, with proof, of course:
  • the Intercessory Uncertainty Principle which states that the act of an unambiguous prayer being answered is inversely proportional to the number of unbiased observers.
  • Prayer-Reality Duality which states that the act of attempting to observe a miracle causes the miracle function to collapse.

Both lead to the theory of Religious Bullshit that predicts that the maximum probability of a claimed supernatural intervention occurring in present day is during the absence of recording devices. Or, to simplify and put it in terms a believer might relate to: magic god stuff now only happens when no-one is looking or can provide proof, so it's best to try to change the subject and hope that no-one notices
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #660 on: December 12, 2013, 01:27:08 PM »
Who made those laws?
Who caused gravity to affect mass?
Who made thermodynamics?
Who made the chemical bonds?
Possible answers:
1) A superbeing that wants you to worship him, has the power to prevent demons from tricking you, but refuses to do so.
2) Marge the truck driver.
3) Darkseid, the all-powerful ruler of a dystopian planet.
4) I don't know.
5) Why are you asking 'who' in the first place, rather than 'what'?  Why presuppose a sentient intelligence had any involvement?

Quote
If you say, "that's just how it is," then you will be sounding like a theist does when we speak of God.
The proper response, of course, is to say "I don't know" and then ask the requisite question of "How do we find the answer, and how will we know if we're right?"

If I wanted to sound like a theist, I would make up an answer and just assume I'm right.  And anyone who disagrees with me...somethingsomething demons.
Quote
Science can explain what gravity does but it can not explain why gravity is the way it is. You guys even say that these laws weren't always around until after the Big Bang. So you believe these laws formed on their own for no reason?
I believe these 'laws' are descriptions of the behavior of reality, and that I do not know the explanation for why reality behaves the way it behaves at it's most fundamental level.  I believe that pretending to know the answers is disingenuous and anathema to truth seeking.

I believe that you don't give a sh*t about knowing the truth - I believe that all you care about is having an answer without any consideration for whether the answer is right.

I believe that you are horribly uncomfortable with the notion of not knowing everything, with the very real possibility that you can't know everything, and that you've constructed this fantasy of gods and demons to provide explanations for gaps in your knowledge and to satisfy your egotistical need to matter at a cosmic and divine level.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #661 on: December 12, 2013, 01:30:36 PM »
Who made those laws?
Who caused gravity to affect mass?
Who made thermodynamics?
Who made the chemical bonds?

If you say, "that's just how it is," then you will be sounding like a theist does when we speak of God.

Science can explain what gravity does but it can not explain why gravity is the way it is. You guys even say that these laws weren't always around until after the Big Bang. So you believe these laws formed on their own for no reason?

Why posit a 'who' as the maker of the laws in question? You went from the questions of why those laws exist and what caused them to be so to assuming that the answer is a 'who' that just so happens to be the god you believe in.

Instead of pulling your god out as the answer to all things when no evidence exists to even confirm your god's existence, let alone him being the creator and sustainer of the universe; Why not be content with the answer of we don't know YET?!? Why is admitting ignorance so hard and why is dishonestly crediting that which one wants to be the answer so easy?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #662 on: December 12, 2013, 01:34:37 PM »

Who made those laws?
Who caused gravity to affect mass?
Who made thermodynamics?
Who made the chemical bonds?

If you say, "that's just how it is," then you will be sounding like a theist does when we speak of God.

Science can explain what gravity does but it can not explain why gravity is the way it is. You guys even say that these laws weren't always around until after the Big Bang. So you believe these laws formed on their own for no reason?

Appeal to ignorance, your argument is invalid
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #663 on: December 12, 2013, 01:41:44 PM »

besides, the universe is an orderly system. The only way to get an orderly system is through intelligence creating it. You never get intelligent orderly systems at random. They must be designed.

Assuming the premise, your  argument is invalid
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #664 on: December 12, 2013, 01:44:07 PM »
Who made those laws?
Who caused gravity to affect mass?
Who made thermodynamics?
Who made the chemical bonds?
Why do you assume there must have been a 'who' involved?  This is the same mistake you've been making all along - that there must have been someone who did it, rather than trying to figure out what actually happened.  Remember, we aren't talking about laws in the human sense.

Quote from: skeptic54768
If you say, "that's just how it is," then you will be sounding like a theist does when we speak of God.
Not knowing how something came about is not the same as claiming "that's just how it is".  My personal opinion is that the physical laws and forces came about as a natural consequence of the universe existing, but I don't really know for sure.  One thing that's popped up recently is the idea that black holes are more like sinkholes, so any matter that goes into them gets transferred into a new universe.  In that case the physical laws and such would be carryovers from that.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Science can explain what gravity does but it can not explain why gravity is the way it is. You guys even say that these laws weren't always around until after the Big Bang. So you believe these laws formed on their own for no reason?
Just because we don't know what the reason is doesn't mean that there was no reason - and it also doesn't mean that the reason is what you've come up with and personally believe either.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #665 on: December 12, 2013, 01:45:24 PM »
But if you really want to play with wave-particle duality and get all woo about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, then you should return the favour. Please explain, with proof, of course:
  • the Intercessory Uncertainty Principle which states that the act of an unambiguous prayer being answered is inversely proportional to the number of unbiased observers.
  • Prayer-Reality Duality which states that the act of attempting to observe a miracle causes the miracle function to collapse.
And don't forget the Function-Collapsing Resurrection of Schrödinger's Cat after 3 days in superposition in the quantum box!  Believe, or face an eternity of quantum hairball entanglement in your shoes!
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #666 on: December 12, 2013, 02:05:36 PM »
I'll put this in a very simple way.  The fact that we don't know for sure why some things happen is not a good reason to attribute those things to a god (or intelligent being).  What we should be doing, and what scientists actually do, is trying to figure out why those things actually happen.  What we shouldn't be doing, but what many religious believers actually do, is assume that a god caused/causes things to happen.

It's one thing to consider the possibility of a god (or an intelligent being) doing something, but you need evidence to show this actually happened.  For example, we can show that buildings are actually constructed by humans (intelligent beings) because we have a preponderance of evidence which demonstrates that we actually make these buildings.  That's exactly what we don't have in the case of the universe and the god/s which many people believe made it.