Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 12308 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #580 on: December 08, 2013, 06:08:57 PM »

They were not Christians. Just saying you are doesn't mean jack diddly.

Sitting in your garage making "vroom" noises doesn't make you a car.
Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them."
Even you atheists roll your eyes and say, "Good loving Christian" sarcastically when you hear stuff like this.

How much proof do you need that they weren't Christian?

No True Scotsman Fallacy...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #581 on: December 08, 2013, 09:00:12 PM »
I'll read up on this Euthyphro Dilemma later so I can respond appropriately.


Ok waiting...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #582 on: December 08, 2013, 09:13:43 PM »


I got my info virtually from this...
If i am wrong somewhere, please tell me.

The chart quantifies the unquantifiable. Not good evidence.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #583 on: December 08, 2013, 09:19:41 PM »

Those weren't christians. They were catholics. You have condemned them over and over. You can't claim them for your own now.


That was a smart move. I wouldn't have thought of that one.

If you think about it true Christianity didn't start until the 16th Century. So, anything they hold before then, according to skeptic, were done by demon-lead people.

-Nam

Which would have included those that made the Bible and those that founded Protestantism.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #584 on: December 09, 2013, 12:32:28 AM »
Yeah. Today's born again and evangelical Christians wish we would all just forget all that nonsense between oh, about 200 CE and 1600 CE. You know, the formative years of the religion that began during the Roman Empire. The empire that used political power and military force to establish Christianity as the dominant religious faith in Europe....

Except when they want to call on that time period to prove that Christians were really smart and philosophical and sciency and stuff, back when the main kind of Christianity was the wrong kind, Catholic or Orthodox or Coptic&)

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #585 on: December 09, 2013, 03:22:21 AM »
I would accept abiogenesis if it was videotaped without human intervention.
...
Can this be done? They claim it happened already, so I need to see it with my own 2 eyes.

I will accept god exists when I can videotape him interacting in the world.  I need to see god with my own two eyes before I will accept it is real.

Until that point - by Skep's argument - I don't have to accept a single word said about it.  Glad we've sorted that out.

God is invisible. Can't videotape God. That's preposterous.

You will not accept something that people SAY is true unless you can see video evidence of it.  Good show, that's an enquiring and skeptical mind.

Why do you call me preposterous for refusing to accept something YOU say is true unless I can see video evidence of it?

Why are you a rational clear thinker for refusing to accept claims without proof, while I am preposterous and dumb?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Nam

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #586 on: December 09, 2013, 07:13:27 AM »

Those weren't christians. They were catholics. You have condemned them over and over. You can't claim them for your own now.


That was a smart move. I wouldn't have thought of that one.

If you think about it true Christianity didn't start until the 16th Century. So, anything they hold before then, according to skeptic, were done by demon-lead people.

-Nam

Which would have included those that made the Bible and those that founded Protestantism.

Which is evidence that skeptic is demon-lead. Doesn't matter the version of the Bible he holds to, it's main source was written by demon-lead people.

He can't win. He lost from the beginning.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #587 on: December 10, 2013, 12:31:19 PM »
You will not accept something that people SAY is true unless you can see video evidence of it.  Good show, that's an enquiring and skeptical mind.

Why do you call me preposterous for refusing to accept something YOU say is true unless I can see video evidence of it?


Why are you a rational clear thinker for refusing to accept claims without proof, while I am preposterous and dumb?

if you haven't seen the evidence of abiogenesis, then you are being a hypocrite for accepting it and not accepting God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #588 on: December 10, 2013, 12:57:08 PM »
You will not accept something that people SAY is true unless you can see video evidence of it.  Good show, that's an enquiring and skeptical mind.

Why do you call me preposterous for refusing to accept something YOU say is true unless I can see video evidence of it?


Why are you a rational clear thinker for refusing to accept claims without proof, while I am preposterous and dumb?

if you haven't seen the evidence of abiogenesis, then you are being a hypocrite for accepting it and not accepting God.

"There are no other alternatives, either you buy into abiogenesis or you must admit that my god exists and is responsible for the creation of the universe/multiverse/everything.
Other possibilities like life beginning at the onset of the universe when space and time came to be must not be considered. There's no way that my god is less likely than contraversial topics like panspermia.  And if you think I'm gonna be intellignet enough or intellectually honest enough to differentiate between cosmology and the evolution of life, you people have another thing coming!

Bottom line, if you can't fully prove beyond a shadow of a doubt everything you accept as reasonable, then you must not only admit that my god exists, you must bow down and worship him by subscribing to my worldview and living in conjuction with what I believe to be moral and right."


Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #589 on: December 10, 2013, 01:20:59 PM »
if you haven't seen the evidence of abiogenesis, then you are being a hypocrite for accepting it and not accepting God.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the Miller-Urey experiment.

Do you have a similar experiment we can do to find your alleged god?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #590 on: December 10, 2013, 01:21:49 PM »
if you haven't seen the evidence of abiogenesis, then you are being a hypocrite for accepting it and not accepting God.

We're here. There are no gods. Abiogenesis seems pretty likely. There may be yet other explanations. That is always possible. In the meantime, we're working on it.

Bring your dark ages along and watch.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #591 on: December 10, 2013, 02:22:08 PM »
We're here. There are no gods. Abiogenesis seems pretty likely. There may be yet other explanations. That is always possible. In the meantime, we're working on it.

Bring your dark ages along and watch.

Double P,

I am sorry but that is circular logic:

"We're here so it must have started on its own."

How do we know it started on its own? Because we're here.
Why are we here? Because it started on its own.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #592 on: December 10, 2013, 03:34:07 PM »
skeptic, do you see what you did there?

ParkingPlaces made a soft statement and included "seems pretty likely [...] there may be other explanations." But you attributed to him the hard, all-or-nothing statement of "must have started on it's own." That's very disingenuous. Do you see why people have a hard time communicating with you?

P1: ParkingPlaces exists.
P2: ParkingPlaces has experienced no gods during his existence.
C: Life arising naturally seems likely to ParkingPlaces considering A and B, but may not necessarily be true.

There's no fallacious reasoning here.

Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #593 on: December 10, 2013, 06:27:34 PM »
The past 10,000 years or so of human existence has been the story of a pretty intense search for signs of the supernatural--humans have spent (wasted?) centuries investigating gods, magic, spirits, psychic powers, what have you. The positive results of millions of people worldwide trying out thousands of competing and equally unfounded supernatural arguments (with no demonstrable evidence supporting them) have been spotty at best: little bit of empirical information about the world, plus some good feelings and community cohesion among groups of believers.

And of course, some really awful conflicts and horrible cruelty. No need to go into a lot of detail-- Christian crusades, partition of India, inquisitions, witch burnings, persecution of Jews, fatwas, enslavement and massacres of other religious groups everywhere.   

Also, to be fair, lots of interesting and beautiful artistic expression. Religious inspiration has decorated the world with impressive art, music, writings, dance, and other subjective, culturally specific human endeavors. However, as an atheist I am amazed at how many people attribute the universal human creative impulse to their preferred supernatural being. This in spite of the fact that they cannot explain why their god would inspire so many pagans, infidels and other unbelievers to create equally intricate and fascinating tributes to their false beliefs. [1]


But all this has produced almost no explanatory power about the world, no predictive results that can be transferred to other non-religious settings. In other words, we tried the supernatural and it did not work. Humans spent 10,000 years asking the supernatural to cure people of deadly horrors like leprosy, smallpox, bubonic plague, polio, childbed fever, syphilis, cancer, influenza and malaria with zero effect.

And guess what? In only a couple hundred years of applying the scientific method, we have discovered how to eliminate, cure, or at least treat, all of those and more. Consistently, and for everyone, not just for those who worship the right supernatural beings. Science works. Religion doesn't.[2]

Nobody has to take my world for it.  Just compare life expectancy, infant mortality rates, and overall quality of life in places where all they have is religion (like Haiti, Afghanistan and Bangladesh)  to places that have science (with religion as in the US or without as in Japan and Scandinavia). Where would you rather drink the water? In a place where they pray over it, or a place where they treat it scientifically to kill the germs? Hands down, science does a far better job than religion of taking care of people and fixing them up when they break. 

If that was not the case, religious people would not have to keep changing what they mean by "save" and "heal". Science saves and heals here on earth in real time, visibly and in ways that everyone can document. Religion has to make up stories about how its benefits are invisible, spiritual and maybe show up only after you are dead....

BTW, the gods of the past 10,000 years don't exist. ;)
 1. Stonehenge, Chichen Itza, Angkor Wat, Ummayyad Mosque, Hagia Sofia, Pyramids of Giza, and Winchester Cathedral are all artistically awesome, but make no "universal" statement about the supernatural other than that many people believe in some aspect of it.
 2. Remember how most churches have decided not to do communion when there is an infectious disease in the community? Because even the ministers and priests know that god won't protect them from AIDS or typhoid fever, but germ theory will. Science works, baby. Religion doesn't.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #594 on: December 10, 2013, 07:47:20 PM »
We're here. There are no gods. Abiogenesis seems pretty likely. There may be yet other explanations. That is always possible. In the meantime, we're working on it.

Bring your dark ages along and watch.

Double P,

I am sorry but that is circular logic:

"We're here so it must have started on its own."

How do we know it started on its own? Because we're here.
Why are we here? Because it started on its own.

(Thanks for covering my six on this on Zankuu. But its alright. He's shooting blanks.)

Skeptic

You need to help me out with this. I have never heard any god-based explanation of the universe or earth or life that didn't simply involve a cute little story with many a lesson in it. Not very good lessons, but lessons. And I have never heard any easily measurable consistency from believers about the story; I've heard many variations, but nothing I can call congruous with reality.

Science, on the other hand, tells stories that are amazingly consistent. Science tells stories that match my reality. Science tells stories that are backed up by theories and laws, tests and experiments, and repeatable claims. Science comes up with proofs; ideas that seem solid but that science is willing to modify or even discard if sufficient evidence to do so is found.

The claims of religion, most especially the christian version that says the universe and our planet are only about 6,000 years old, are not nearly as solid. And I'm putting that mildly. Everything we measure indicates that the universe is almost 3,000,000 times older. And you are telling us that even though there appears to be evidence of things that are older than 6,000 years, they really aren't. And the lack of evidence for a worldwide flood should be disregarded. And the failure of DNA analysis to link all humans back to Noah and the gang shouldn't put us off. You are asking us to disregard the order in which dinosaur and other fossil specimens are buried, to disregard the ancient ice cores that we are drilling out of Greenland and the Antarctic, disregard archaeological evidence for much older human cultures, disregard the vast evidence for continental drift, disregard the obvious slowness of current soil and rock erosion, that you instead ask us not to extrapolate back in time past your magic date; you are asking us to ignore countless conclusions from competent human being who are interested in the truth, and instead go with your story, even though the only evidence for it is, like, you know, your story.

There are no fine lines here. It isn't christianity claiming that the earth is 6,000 years old and science saying its more like 6,119 years old. We're talking a huge disparity. Well, bigger than that but I'm trying to use terms that christians can understand.

If we said that each row of pews in your church represents 1,000 years of earths history, you would say that that history only goes back six pews. We would point to the other pews behind and say "Nope, you kind of need to go 1300 miles worth of pews further."

Imagining that scientific knowledge can be corrected to allow for your reality is naïve. If science was that wrong, it would be a cinch to prove it. You shouldn't need outlier scientists working from house trailers labels as "Institutes" or "Universities" be the only ones doing the work. You shouldn't have such a short list of counter arguments that each and ever theist visitor here is forced to use the same ones. You shouldn't have division within christianity about whether or not evolution actually happened. You shouldn't be limited to a few repetitive web sites to back up your claims, as compared to the hundreds of thousand, if not millions, of sources that we can turn to.

If you had anything more than an active imagination and a book, you would have many more tools with which to counter scientific arguments. You wouldn't need a strident tone in your voice, you wouldn't need to sit constantly on the verge of panic because of your few resources. You wouldn't need to fear next weeks science news, which will probably put more nails in the coffin of creationism. You would have a described reality that contained a plethora of evidence for your argument, and you would be able to quote unquestionably legitimate fact-finding studies by the gazillions, instead of the ten or twenty you hope you have now.

To make the world young, you also have to make it tiny. You have to minimize input and maximize excuses. You have to narrow your search for evidence down to those things that at best are oddball, and then you have to pin all of your hopes on those few anomalies that, if you don't look too close or really pay any attention, might just back up your side of the story a tiny little bit.

In the above synopsis, I did leave out one thing. Your incredulity. That is the one thing you have a lot of. It isn't going for you, but you have a lot of it. "Well, it seems to me that this or that could never happen…" is the most common argument we get. "I don't see how…" is a close second. With "There is no way that such a thing could happen!" pulling a distant third. Which means you give more credence to your instincts, which are based on faulty information, then you do to actual evidence. Which fails to impress every time.

Scientists a hundred years ago knew so little compared to what we know today, and had theories we now sort of laugh at. And I've no doubt that a hundred years from now people will shake their heads at how little we knew, and how wrong we were about some aspects of some of the sciences. But they won't be saying "How the f**k did they think the earth was so old! Mostly they will be feeling sorry for us because we didn't have the access to geologic data from other planets so similar to our own. That we didn't have the technical ability to drill a hundred miles into the planet an take rock samples. That our nanotechnology was limited to manipulating only atoms, which they would consider so big.

We have much to learn. We are held up by the tens of thousands, by the millions, that refuse to accept modern information, and hence both oppose progress and insulate themselves from the scientific world, which means that they cannot make contributions. While we fight wars against other religions and other people, we also fight amongst ourselves because we choose to follow different data sources.

So you go ahead and help hold us back. I would expect no less.  Your artificially tiny world allows you to do nothing else. As you sit at your keyboard and complain about our ignorance, bask in the glow of your own self-satisfaction and ignore every little doubt you ever have about your stance. Because you've got a world to keep on ruining. Tradition is important and you must do your part.

That'll teach you to put words in my mouth. Read what I wrote next time. Mine is not the strident voice in this conversation. Mine is not the desperate one. Make more stuff up if you have to, but don't also expect us, your opponents, to eventually walk two by two into your ark of ignorance.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 07:50:59 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #595 on: December 11, 2013, 01:44:27 AM »
There is no evidence of anything older than 6,000-10,000 years old.

Agriculture started right around the time God was said to have created the world because God told man to "til the ground."
Writing started right around the time God was said to have created the world.

Agriculture and writing should be tens of thousands of years old in the "billions of years" model. Do you guys think it's a huge coincidence that all this stuff started right around the time God was said to have created the universe?

You guys expect us to think modern man was around for 190,000 years without thinking of agriculture and writing? if you believe that, you'll fall for anything. It's no wonder atheists unquestioningly accept scientists words.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:45:59 AM by skeptic54768 »
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #596 on: December 11, 2013, 01:54:12 AM »
Bahahahaha XD

Aboriginals (Australian ones) are dated at the least, 40 thousand years.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #597 on: December 11, 2013, 01:56:21 AM »
Bahahahaha XD

Aboriginals (Australian ones) are dated at the least, 40 thousand years.

And yet they couldn't even write anything down or grow some corn....sounds fishy.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #598 on: December 11, 2013, 01:59:01 AM »
We're here. There are no gods. Abiogenesis seems pretty likely. There may be yet other explanations. That is always possible. In the meantime, we're working on it.

Bring your dark ages along and watch.

Double P,

I am sorry but that is circular logic:

"We're here so it must have started on its own."

How do we know it started on its own? Because we're here.
Why are we here? Because it started on its own.

(Thanks for covering my six on this on Zankuu. But its alright. He's shooting blanks.)

Skeptic

You need to help me out with this. I have never heard any god-based explanation of the universe or earth or life that didn't simply involve a cute little story with many a lesson in it. Not very good lessons, but lessons. And I have never heard any easily measurable consistency from believers about the story; I've heard many variations, but nothing I can call congruous with reality.

Science, on the other hand, tells stories that are amazingly consistent. Science tells stories that match my reality. Science tells stories that are backed up by theories and laws, tests and experiments, and repeatable claims. Science comes up with proofs; ideas that seem solid but that science is willing to modify or even discard if sufficient evidence to do so is found.

The claims of religion, most especially the christian version that says the universe and our planet are only about 6,000 years old, are not nearly as solid. And I'm putting that mildly. Everything we measure indicates that the universe is almost 3,000,000 times older. And you are telling us that even though there appears to be evidence of things that are older than 6,000 years, they really aren't. And the lack of evidence for a worldwide flood should be disregarded. And the failure of DNA analysis to link all humans back to Noah and the gang shouldn't put us off. You are asking us to disregard the order in which dinosaur and other fossil specimens are buried, to disregard the ancient ice cores that we are drilling out of Greenland and the Antarctic, disregard archaeological evidence for much older human cultures, disregard the vast evidence for continental drift, disregard the obvious slowness of current soil and rock erosion, that you instead ask us not to extrapolate back in time past your magic date; you are asking us to ignore countless conclusions from competent human being who are interested in the truth, and instead go with your story, even though the only evidence for it is, like, you know, your story.

There are no fine lines here. It isn't christianity claiming that the earth is 6,000 years old and science saying its more like 6,119 years old. We're talking a huge disparity. Well, bigger than that but I'm trying to use terms that christians can understand.

If we said that each row of pews in your church represents 1,000 years of earths history, you would say that that history only goes back six pews. We would point to the other pews behind and say "Nope, you kind of need to go 1300 miles worth of pews further."

Imagining that scientific knowledge can be corrected to allow for your reality is naïve. If science was that wrong, it would be a cinch to prove it. You shouldn't need outlier scientists working from house trailers labels as "Institutes" or "Universities" be the only ones doing the work. You shouldn't have such a short list of counter arguments that each and ever theist visitor here is forced to use the same ones. You shouldn't have division within christianity about whether or not evolution actually happened. You shouldn't be limited to a few repetitive web sites to back up your claims, as compared to the hundreds of thousand, if not millions, of sources that we can turn to.

If you had anything more than an active imagination and a book, you would have many more tools with which to counter scientific arguments. You wouldn't need a strident tone in your voice, you wouldn't need to sit constantly on the verge of panic because of your few resources. You wouldn't need to fear next weeks science news, which will probably put more nails in the coffin of creationism. You would have a described reality that contained a plethora of evidence for your argument, and you would be able to quote unquestionably legitimate fact-finding studies by the gazillions, instead of the ten or twenty you hope you have now.

To make the world young, you also have to make it tiny. You have to minimize input and maximize excuses. You have to narrow your search for evidence down to those things that at best are oddball, and then you have to pin all of your hopes on those few anomalies that, if you don't look too close or really pay any attention, might just back up your side of the story a tiny little bit.

In the above synopsis, I did leave out one thing. Your incredulity. That is the one thing you have a lot of. It isn't going for you, but you have a lot of it. "Well, it seems to me that this or that could never happen…" is the most common argument we get. "I don't see how…" is a close second. With "There is no way that such a thing could happen!" pulling a distant third. Which means you give more credence to your instincts, which are based on faulty information, then you do to actual evidence. Which fails to impress every time.

Scientists a hundred years ago knew so little compared to what we know today, and had theories we now sort of laugh at. And I've no doubt that a hundred years from now people will shake their heads at how little we knew, and how wrong we were about some aspects of some of the sciences. But they won't be saying "How the f**k did they think the earth was so old! Mostly they will be feeling sorry for us because we didn't have the access to geologic data from other planets so similar to our own. That we didn't have the technical ability to drill a hundred miles into the planet an take rock samples. That our nanotechnology was limited to manipulating only atoms, which they would consider so big.

We have much to learn. We are held up by the tens of thousands, by the millions, that refuse to accept modern information, and hence both oppose progress and insulate themselves from the scientific world, which means that they cannot make contributions. While we fight wars against other religions and other people, we also fight amongst ourselves because we choose to follow different data sources.

So you go ahead and help hold us back. I would expect no less.  Your artificially tiny world allows you to do nothing else. As you sit at your keyboard and complain about our ignorance, bask in the glow of your own self-satisfaction and ignore every little doubt you ever have about your stance. Because you've got a world to keep on ruining. Tradition is important and you must do your part.

That'll teach you to put words in my mouth. Read what I wrote next time. Mine is not the strident voice in this conversation. Mine is not the desperate one. Make more stuff up if you have to, but don't also expect us, your opponents, to eventually walk two by two into your ark of ignorance.

I admire your dedication, Double P. You always have a lot to say and defend your cause with vigor.

The problem is that I have read all the refutations of talk origins at www.trueorigin.org

That website has point by point refutations of articles written on talk origins. Without reading both sides, you'll never know if you're being taken for a ride. Talk origins seems legit, but it's all smoke and mirrors. Dig beneath the surface and you'll find the truth.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #599 on: December 11, 2013, 01:59:15 AM »
Why would they need to?

They already had a language and were nomads.

When your food goes around and is not common, you chase after it, or starve.

You do not farm it, because the resources to do so would starve you.

Also, Australia does not have corn.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #600 on: December 11, 2013, 02:02:39 AM »
Why would they need to?

They already had a language and were nomads.

When your food goes around and is not common, you chase after it, or starve.

You do not farm it, because the resources to do so would starve you.

Also, Australia does not have corn.

So you are saying that one day they had no need to farm, and another day they magically had a need to farm?

And you want us to swallow that whole?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #601 on: December 11, 2013, 02:04:37 AM »
They never had farms, ever.

(excluding one tribe, which farmed eels, their farm was discovered.)
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #602 on: December 11, 2013, 02:21:01 AM »
In the history of humanity, farming, written language and cities are comparatively young -- And intricately related.  My theory is as follows:

Nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes, consisting of several families, had oral traditions rather than written ones.  A small group of people, travelling frequently with few possessions, would neither need writing nor the burden of carrying written records from place to place.  Fortified villages with permanent houses allowed the communities to grow, and because of the immobility of the settlement it then became necessary to have a consistent supply of food -- Hence agriculture.  (Perhaps a village was set up near a river, and someone observed that the seeds of a wild grain would sprout and create more grain if thrown into the mud near the water.)

One of the earliest known writing systems, from Sumer, was initially used for accounting.  I would surmise that with a large population and weaker inter-familial ties, more complex dealings came about and a person-to-person trust system was no longer adequate.

This isn't a binary process where one day everyone decides to put down their spears and pick up plows instead -- It's a series of small discoveries that, when put together, give us the world we have today.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #603 on: December 11, 2013, 02:26:21 AM »
In the history of humanity, farming, written language and cities are comparatively young -- And intricately related.  My theory is as follows:

Nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes, consisting of several families, had oral traditions rather than written ones.  A small group of people, travelling frequently with few possessions, would neither need writing nor the burden of carrying written records from place to place.  Fortified villages with permanent houses allowed the communities to grow, and because of the immobility of the settlement it then became necessary to have a consistent supply of food -- Hence agriculture.  (Perhaps a village was set up near a river, and someone observed that the seeds of a wild grain would sprout and create more grain if thrown into the mud near the water.)

One of the earliest known writing systems, from Sumer, was initially used for accounting.  I would surmise that with a large population and weaker inter-familial ties, more complex dealings came about and a person-to-person trust system was no longer adequate.

This isn't a binary process where one day everyone decides to put down their spears and pick up plows instead -- It's a series of small discoveries that, when put together, give us the world we have today.

While I see what you are trying to say, is there evidence for it?

Do you have evidence that people had oral traditions?
How would you know?

i know this stuff sounds "cool" when it comes from a scientist's mouth, but does this mean we should just accept whatever they say?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #604 on: December 11, 2013, 02:28:24 AM »
Okay, this started with you saying there is no evidence for anything over 10 thousand years.

I gave you a well known example.

You must counter somehow.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #605 on: December 11, 2013, 02:51:29 AM »
There is no evidence of anything older than 6,000-10,000 years old.

Agriculture started right around the time God was said to have created the world because God told man to "til the ground."
Writing started right around the time God was said to have created the world.

Agriculture and writing should be tens of thousands of years old in the "billions of years" model. Do you guys think it's a huge coincidence that all this stuff started right around the time God was said to have created the universe?

You guys expect us to think modern man was around for 190,000 years without thinking of agriculture and writing? if you believe that, you'll fall for anything. It's no wonder atheists unquestioningly accept scientists words.

This is called moving the goal posts to get the answer you want. Do you see how you are fooling yourself?

The creation date calculated according to the bible is 4004 bc. Now that modern archaeology has discovered agriculture back to 10,000 bc, you want to change your dates. In fact you want to more or less double the length of time since the biblical creation.

(My parents bought a huge gold plated pulpit bible from a church for investment. The officially accepted years bc for everything are given in the margins, back to the creation.)

« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 03:22:11 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #606 on: December 11, 2013, 04:29:30 AM »
This is called moving the goal posts to get the answer you want. Do you see how you are fooling yourself?

The creation date calculated according to the bible is 4004 bc. Now that modern archaeology has discovered agriculture back to 10,000 bc, you want to change your dates. In fact you want to more or less double the length of time since the biblical creation.

That's not the idiotic fallacy that Skep just made, though.

If you have homonids around for X,000 years, and none of them can write, or farm, due to circumstance; perhaps either ice age, or not having paper, then obviously they aren't going to be able farm or write any Bible down.

Then suddenly, they can write, because they invent paper, or agricultural civilization becomes efficient enough for a clerical class to contemplate its navel; then more detailed religious texts then follow, soon afterwards.

It would be very strange if we had had reading and writing skills, and we carried around parchments with us as nomads, and showed the parchments to the 10 people we met, every now and then. (sarcasm) I'm sure they would take note, and whip out their own parchments and copy it all down, and subvert their own religious beliefs, and then carry them around while they hunted pigs.

It follows that Jewish type written religion can only start when there is a big enough civilization to have a fat-arsed priest class, paper and agriculture.

What Skep hates, is that Judaism and Christianity did not start earlier, because God left all those people to burn, until they invented paper and clerics.

Skep is also missing an opportunity to credit religion with humans making progress. Since if we had literacy skills and agriculture for 100,000 years, and we stayed in that state without religion, then obviously religion is important for progress, if mankind suddenly became technological 1000 years after the invention of Judaism.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 04:32:01 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #607 on: December 11, 2013, 06:07:19 AM »
Bahahahaha XD

Aboriginals (Australian ones) are dated at the least, 40 thousand years.

And yet they couldn't even write anything down or grow some corn....sounds fishy.

They could paint though - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/18/rock-australia-art

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #608 on: December 11, 2013, 06:24:25 AM »
You guys expect us to think modern man was around for 190,000 years without thinking of agriculture and writing? if you believe that, you'll fall for anything. It's no wonder atheists unquestioningly accept scientists words.

Define "modern man", Skep. 

You expect us to believe that the One True God that created the whole world and man was unknown to all bar one tiny little corner of the world for the first 4,000 years of its existence?  Does not feature even in the mythology of vast chunks of the world until his own myths were brought there?  All seems a bit implausible to me - that despite vast chunks of his creation having no idea of his existence until told by missionaries, a One True Creator God still exists.

If you believe that, you'll fall for anything. It's no wonder theists unquestioningly accept the Bible's words.

Other than that, Add has covered everything I wanted to say.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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