Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 16990 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #464 on: December 06, 2013, 10:22:01 PM »
care to give the Koran a whirl?

This is completely different.

Immaterialism is based on empiricism.
Atheists love empiricism.
Ergo, atheists should be immaterialists.
but then they wouldn't be atheists anymore anyway.

Perhaps the 4th sentence is the scary one for you guys.
Just because you can cut and paste and quote garbage does not mean you understand it is just hypothetical,that's why its called philosophy
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #465 on: December 06, 2013, 10:22:08 PM »
You guys say I have no evidence for God and I say you guys have no evidence for abiogenesis.
The difference is that scientists are actually looking for evidence that they can use to support the abiogenesis hypothesis, whereas you (and other theists like you) are seemingly content to just say "God did it" and leave it at that.

Quote from: skeptic54768
So I believe in the beginning.....God.
Which explains nothing.

Quote from: skeptic54768
You believe in the beginning....dirt.
Actually, there is no "in the beginning" with the abiogenesis hypothesis.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Don't tell me my theory is religious and yours is scientific.
They are both religious.
Nope.  Religious beliefs depend on people being willing to accept them at face value.  Scientific theories depend on people constantly questioning and examining them.  So, your belief is religious, and abiogenesis is scientific.

Quote from: skeptic54768
That's one of the problems I have with atheists. They tell us not to listen to apologetic websites for our science information, but then they use secular websites for their religious information.
Why would you trust an apologetic website for scientific information to begin with?  Apologetics are by definition not scientific.  That being said, it's only your assertion that atheists get religious information from secular websites.  And, frankly, it's a ridiculous one to boot.  It's like suggesting that someone gets philosophy information from a car manual.

Quote from: skeptic54768
It's a dishonest double standard.
If there is any double standard here, it's in your attempts to pretend that your religious beliefs don't need proof, but scientific theories do.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #466 on: December 06, 2013, 10:22:58 PM »
What you're not considering, you silly goose, is that maybe objects simply blink out of existence if we aren't perceiving them. That no god is involved, and trees and such just come and go as we think of them in our minds. You are adding a god when you have no way of knowing whether he is there perceiving the universe into existence or not.

You think that god perceiving everything is the reason it is there when you aren't looking. And you have no evidence for that.

You are assuming that you still have an ass when you are looking in the mirror.

You are hoping god is looking at it.

You are assuming he perceives you when you are asleep. If he doesn't, that would mean that you disappear at night

You are assuming a god in the picture because in the tiny world you have invented, you have to have him or your existence makes no sense.

You are adding a god for your convenience, not because he is necessary.

Your point is answered in the "Common Sense" section of that webpage I linked to.

Care to give it a whirl?

No, the consistencies we think we perceive may not exist at all. They, like peripheral vision, may be made up. How do you know they are not? You are assuming a consistency that may not exist.

Plus, you are demanding that this is the way the universe must operate, and taking no other possibilities into account. So for it to work, you think a god has to be involved too. It may work in very different ways and you would never know it because you prefer your narrow points of view.

Berkeley is playing mind games. I see no connection to reality. Yes, water can feel either warm or cool in comparison to something else. Even simultaneously. But I know of no way for molten iron or cascading lava fresh from a volcano to be perceived as cool. Examples that only work under certain conditions aren't of much use.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #467 on: December 06, 2013, 10:31:44 PM »
Another one. If this is true, god is complicit in most all sins.

If I decide I have to murder someone who I hate, and decide to do it with a high powered rifle, and I go lay in wait for my victim, and the victim shows up and is in a good position for me to shoot them, and, just to be careful, I turn around first to make sure that nobody is behind me, god has to maintain that reality or it will disappear. I return my eyes to the victim, see him and shoot, killing him.

God helped. He is complicit in the murder. All he had to do would be vary reality just a tiny little bit and poof, the shot becomes impossible and the person lives. Instead, god goes along with it. God is evil.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #468 on: December 06, 2013, 10:38:48 PM »
If there is any double standard here, it's in your attempts to pretend that your religious beliefs don't need proof, but scientific theories do.

That's not a double standard.

there's a reason they are called BELIEFS. Science claims to be based on facts, so when it's based on beliefs, we have to label it religion.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #469 on: December 06, 2013, 10:42:34 PM »
Another one. If this is true, god is complicit in most all sins.

If I decide I have to murder someone who I hate, and decide to do it with a high powered rifle, and I go lay in wait for my victim, and the victim shows up and is in a good position for me to shoot them, and, just to be careful, I turn around first to make sure that nobody is behind me, god has to maintain that reality or it will disappear. I return my eyes to the victim, see him and shoot, killing him.

God helped. He is complicit in the murder. All he had to do would be vary reality just a tiny little bit and poof, the shot becomes impossible and the person lives. Instead, god goes along with it. God is evil.

Is it your position that God should control us like puppets?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #470 on: December 06, 2013, 10:54:17 PM »
Another one. If this is true, god is complicit in most all sins.

If I decide I have to murder someone who I hate, and decide to do it with a high powered rifle, and I go lay in wait for my victim, and the victim shows up and is in a good position for me to shoot them, and, just to be careful, I turn around first to make sure that nobody is behind me, god has to maintain that reality or it will disappear. I return my eyes to the victim, see him and shoot, killing him.

God helped. He is complicit in the murder. All he had to do would be vary reality just a tiny little bit and poof, the shot becomes impossible and the person lives. Instead, god goes along with it. God is evil.

Is it your position that God should control us like puppets?

You are trying to tell us this shit is real. This is not my position at all. I disagree with all of it. Minds are not required for things to exist. You brought it up. Don't get my reality mixed up with yours and then pretend you're putting up a good argument.

I am saying that if it is true that it takes god to perceive the universe for it to exist, he is complicit in sin. In everything from shoplifting to the holocaust.

He is the one making me into an atheist because he is manifesting a world where he doesn't seem to exist. It's his fault I don't believe in him.

I don't believe any of it. So my arguments here are not to back up any part of it. You are the one telling us what we must be and what we must think, even though you haven't listened to a thing any of us have said about what we actually think, who we actually are. You live in a tiny world where atheists have to have religion or you won't be able to get up in the morning. You live in a tiny little world where the planet can only be 6,000 years old or your mind will explode. You live in a tiny little world where, if the universe isn't exactly like you think it is, you won't be able to survive the night.

My reality allows for much more error. My reality requires no nonsense. And apparently I have no way to describe it to you because you have your fingers stuck in your eyes and ears for safeties sake.

My universe allows for unanswered questions. An which is an anathema to you.

If the only way you can win an argument is to put words in your opponents mouth and then mock them, you still got nutting'.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #471 on: December 06, 2013, 11:02:55 PM »
If there is any double standard here, it's in your attempts to pretend that your religious beliefs don't need proof, but scientific theories do.

That's not a double standard.
Yes, it is.  You're claiming that science requires facts, but your religious beliefs do not - yet you are also trying to claim that your religious beliefs have a higher truth value than any science.  How is that not a double standard?

Quote from: skeptic54768
there's a reason they are called BELIEFS. Science claims to be based on facts, so when it's based on beliefs, we have to label it religion.
Incorrect.  First off, a religion is a belief in a god or godlike entity.  For example, Scientology is a religion that deifies human beings.  That means that in order for science to be a religion, someone would have to deify science.  The problem being that nobody who actually practices science deifies it, because they know it's nothing more than a set of tools we use for discovering things.  It would be like worshiping a hammer or a crowbar.

Second, science is based on evidence.  There's a reason we differentiate between hypotheses and theories in science, because the former does not have sufficient evidence to support them, whereas the latter do.  A hypothesis might be true, but we don't have the evidence to say for sure, whereas a theory is probably true because we have evidence which sufficiently supports it.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #472 on: December 06, 2013, 11:10:17 PM »
We're wasting our breathe, jaimehlers. Skep keeps insisting on arguing with who he insists we are, not who we actually are. Of course, he doesn't know who he is either, which only complicates matters.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Nam

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #473 on: December 06, 2013, 11:13:23 PM »
We're wasting our breathe, jaimehlers. Skep keeps insisting on arguing with who he insists we are, not who we actually are. Of course, he doesn't know who he is either, which only complicates matters.



As I stated yesterday: he doesn't understand, anything. He pretends he does. He has little comprehension.

He's an actual real life moron and should be treated as such.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #474 on: December 06, 2013, 11:59:18 PM »
skeptic, did you think of a response to my post #350 about CSI? Can you explain why some ideas about how a crime was committed fit the evidence and others don't?

I often find that people who say science is not based on facts and evidence (when it comes to evolution or fossils) have no problem with the exact same techniques applied to solving murders and robberies.  Or diagnosing that a sick child has the measles and not lung cancer or a broken leg. Or making a bridge that withstands heavy trucks or a rocket that can fly up into space.

If science was a 'religion' then its applications would only work as often as random chance, the way religion does. With religion, you just have to take it as it is and then make up reasons for why it doesn't work. Religion offers no way to test solutions and see if they are correct or not. Religion is the same as doing nothing.

With science, you don't have to "believe" in it, and pretend that whatever happens is what you wanted anyway. With science, anyone can test it and see what happens. You test a new medicine against a placebo and you should only keep using the medicine if it works better than nothing.  With science you get closer and closer to accurate predictions about the world as you discard the things that don't work. Bridges don't fall down as often, kids with measles get better more often, people know when a blizzard, a tornado or a hurricane is coming, you push a button and things work.  Life is not quite as scary and unpredictable because science helps us to plan and prepare. The scientific method is the only way we have found that beats random chance.

With religion, that is not so. You can't test god, as we are often told. You pray and get yes, no, maybe, later. There is no way to test prayer-- to figure out how to pray better and reach god with more accuracy. Every religion has the exact same accuracy rate-- the same rate as random chance. That is why people keep inventing new religions-- the previous ones don't work!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #475 on: December 07, 2013, 12:30:32 AM »
As I stated yesterday: he doesn't understand, anything. He pretends he does. He has little comprehension.

He's an actual real life moron and should be treated as such.

-Nam

Maybe some treatment in the Emergency Room would help clear the delusions of competence from skeptic's mind.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #476 on: December 07, 2013, 12:37:05 AM »
Skeptic kinda reminds me of my younger brother, except he can read and write (skeptic).
My younger brother is so ready to believe anything about aliens, but the moment you try to explain the facts to him he shuts down and ignores you. In fact just today I had to spend 30 minutes explaining that a ball of light reflecting off the clouds wasn't a UFO but my friend's halogen light he uses at night to check on his horses.

EDIT:
It wasn't the moon, the moon was in the opposite direction.

EDIT2:
English, how does it work? xD
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 12:41:35 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #477 on: December 07, 2013, 02:23:57 AM »
Skeptic kinda reminds me of my younger brother, except he can read and write (skeptic).
My younger brother is so ready to believe anything about aliens, but the moment you try to explain the facts to him he shuts down and ignores you. In fact just today I had to spend 30 minutes explaining that a ball of light reflecting off the clouds wasn't a UFO but my friend's halogen light he uses at night to check on his horses.

EDIT:
It wasn't the moon, the moon was in the opposite direction.

EDIT2:
English, how does it work? xD

Aliens are definitely real.......but they are......

I shouldn't have to say it. By this point, you guys should know exactly what aliens are.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #478 on: December 07, 2013, 02:26:52 AM »

If science was a 'religion' then its applications would only work as often as random chance, the way religion does.
With religion, you just have to take it as it is and then make up reasons for why it doesn't work. Religion offers no way to test solutions and see if they are correct or not. Religion is the same as doing nothing.

Can you point me to the evidence that shows prayers are answered no better than random chance?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #479 on: December 07, 2013, 02:47:42 AM »
Can you point me to the evidence that shows prayers are answered no better than random chance?
There is none- prayers are never answered. There may be coincidences (someone prayed for a sunny day and it was sunny) but there are no answered prayers.
Please feel free to prove me wrong though.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #480 on: December 07, 2013, 02:50:52 AM »
Can you point me to the evidence that shows prayers are answered no better than random chance?
There is none- prayers are never answered. There may be coincidences (someone prayed for a sunny day and it was sunny) but there are no answered prayers.
Please feel free to prove me wrong though.

My prayer was answered. It's what made me stop being an atheist.

I don't know if you heard the story of my prayer but it's late now and I'm very tired. Tomorrow.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #481 on: December 07, 2013, 02:57:27 AM »
My prayer was answered. It's what made me stop being an atheist.
I don't know if you heard the story of my prayer but it's late now and I'm very tired. Tomorrow.
An atheist wouldn't be praying - therefore you were not an atheist.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #482 on: December 07, 2013, 03:25:57 AM »
My prayer was answered. It's what made me stop being an atheist.

I don't know if you heard the story of my prayer but it's late now and I'm very tired. Tomorrow.

May i ask what was answered?
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #483 on: December 07, 2013, 03:56:49 AM »
My prayer was answered. It's what made me stop being an atheist.

I don't know if you heard the story of my prayer but it's late now and I'm very tired. Tomorrow.

May i ask what was answered?

He wished[1] Biblegod would cure a dog then he saw blood in words[2] written on all a wall and he believed.

I didn't make that up, he's stated it countless times (except notes).

-Nam
 1. i mean "prayed"
 2. REDRUM
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #484 on: December 07, 2013, 04:17:42 AM »
He seems to enjoy a good film though-
The Amityville horror, The Matrix and now The Shining all seem to be getting referenced.

Thats my next avatar sorted   ;)
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #485 on: December 07, 2013, 04:35:31 AM »
Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.
Going back to the original post, do you still stand by this answer Skeptic.

Astreja asked you this-
Quote
Skeptic, what do you suggest we do to alleviate the suffering of people in Hell? 
in your ask Skeptic thread but I feel it worth repeating the question here.
Would you try and help people suffering for eternity or would you never question what your loving god does?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #486 on: December 07, 2013, 04:58:47 AM »
He wished[1] Biblegod would cure a dog then he saw blood in words[2] written on all a wall and he believed.

-Nam
 1. i mean "prayed"
 2. REDRUM

Wow...that is...just....umm...*sigh*

I am out of words...


That's better.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #487 on: December 07, 2013, 10:16:56 AM »
Can you point me to the evidence that shows prayers are answered no better than random chance?

There has been studies done on the effectiveness of prayers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0


Quote
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #488 on: December 07, 2013, 10:53:41 AM »
Skeptic kinda reminds me of my younger brother, except he can read and write (skeptic).
My younger brother is so ready to believe anything about aliens, but the moment you try to explain the facts to him he shuts down and ignores you. In fact just today I had to spend 30 minutes explaining that a ball of light reflecting off the clouds wasn't a UFO but my friend's halogen light he uses at night to check on his horses.

EDIT:
It wasn't the moon, the moon was in the opposite direction.

EDIT2:
English, how does it work? xD

Aliens are definitely real.......but they are......

I shouldn't have to say it. By this point, you guys should know exactly what aliens are.

Beings from another planet? A race of hunters that collect the bones of other species and keeps them as trophies, only Arnold Schwarzenegger can stop them with a pointy stick and some mud?

Back to the op I think it's weird that everyone here will condemn burning innocent living people. 1 or 2 and it’s a horrible act. I would imagine burning most of the world (number varies from theist to theist) would be unimaginably horrible. Especially because the burning people are pretty much innocent and good people for the most part. They just don’t get the Jesus thing for whatever reason. And for that and that alone they are tossed into the river of fire. It's all good...

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #489 on: December 07, 2013, 11:17:30 AM »
My prayer was answered. It's what made me stop being an atheist.

I don't know if you heard the story of my prayer but it's late now and I'm very tired. Tomorrow.
We've been over this in other threads. Demons start the false religions and disguise themselves as gods and plant these thoughts in people's heads. Why do you think people believe in all these different religions? They get their prayers answered by demons and it becomes real to them.
This is probably the 948756439 time this has been brought up.

Acknowledge it, you demon-worshipping sh*t-head.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #490 on: December 07, 2013, 11:28:14 AM »
^I know why he won't acknowledge that, even as a purely hypothetical possibility.  It's because if he does, he'll essentially be admitting that his life, from the time his 'prayer' was answered till today, has been engaged in the worship of one of the very demons he despises.  He doesn't know what he would do if that were true, so he avoids even thinking about it.  That's how most people think and act.  There are precious few humans who can face themselves squarely and deal with what they find there, so most of us simply never do so.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #491 on: December 07, 2013, 11:39:21 AM »
He'll just say that he "knows/felt in my heart" that it really was god that has answered him.

Even though every one of those "demon-possessed" christians will say the exact same thing.  Even though, presumably, those demons can replicate the exact same "feelings" in their hearts. 

How we're suppose to tell the difference; I doubt we'll get a concrete answer.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #492 on: December 07, 2013, 11:45:57 AM »
And since there aren't actually any demons either, that makes it even harder for him to handle the truth.

Being excited about god answering a prayer about a dog and then being able to causally accept that he doesn't answer prayers about children is a little weird. Well, real weird.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.