Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 17035 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #435 on: December 06, 2013, 08:37:13 PM »
"Nothing exists without a mind to perceive it"--what does that even mean? What the hell is a disembodied mind?

There are all kinds of things that exist without human beings (or alien beings for that matter) knowing about them. Like the things that dogs can smell and hear, that humans can't. There are microbes that clearly existed because they made us sick for millennia-- before we saw them in the microscope and made the connection between germs and illness.

Species of all kinds lived and died millions of years before humans even appeared on the planet--were there no dinosaurs before we found the fossils? Was there no Australia before  the first aboriginal people showed up there? Do entire ecosystems poof into existence when "minds" show up and start to "perceive"?

I don't even want to get into this stupidity.  &)

You're failing to understand.

They say those fossils are millions of years old, but we are relying on our minds to say that. We see them NOW, but don't know what they look like if no minds are around. You are assuming they exist outside the mind.

In an atheistic world, you have no idea if what you are seeing is truly real, or if what you are seeing is just the way our senses see things (which isn't how things REALLY look.)

I don't think you watched that video.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #436 on: December 06, 2013, 08:46:36 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #437 on: December 06, 2013, 08:48:26 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #438 on: December 06, 2013, 08:49:48 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.
By people who do real science or by people like you?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #439 on: December 06, 2013, 08:52:11 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.

Respected as a thought experiment, perhaps, but I doubt you would find too many people who would actually claim that as their real, working worldview.

I mean, does the average person out there really think that Shrodinger's cat is really both dead and alive at the same time?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:54:25 PM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #440 on: December 06, 2013, 08:52:20 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.
By people who do real science or by people like you?

you are assuming a "fossil" is a "fossil" when no minds are around.
You assume the senses are 100% telling the truth.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #441 on: December 06, 2013, 08:55:06 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.

Respected as a thought experiment, perhaps, but I doubt you would find too many people who would actually claim that as their real, working worldview.

http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/4r.htm

"Irish philosopher George Berkeley believed that Locke's Essay did not carry the principles of empiricism far enough."

you should really read that page. It actually should be right up the atheist's alley. You guys love empiricism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #442 on: December 06, 2013, 09:25:44 PM »
You are just plain ignorant Skeptic,it's a good thing you are the only theist around here for miles

It's not ignorance. It's highly respected as a worldview.
By people who do real science or by people like you?

you are assuming a "fossil" is a "fossil" when no minds are around.
You assume the senses are 100% telling the truth.

You are assuming a mind has to be around. You are assuming that your assumptions are good. You are assuming that nobody else could be right. You are assuming you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to assume how wrong you are.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #443 on: December 06, 2013, 09:27:57 PM »
You are assuming a mind has to be around. You are assuming that your assumptions are good. You are assuming that nobody else could be right. You are assuming you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to assume how wrong you are.

No, that is not an assumption. That is based on evidence of us only knowing about things through minds.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #444 on: December 06, 2013, 09:33:31 PM »
You are assuming a mind has to be around. You are assuming that your assumptions are good. You are assuming that nobody else could be right. You are assuming you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to assume how wrong you are.

No, that is not an assumption. That is based on evidence of us only knowing about things through minds.

We know things through mind. Yes. However things only work/exist because of minds is the premise you are asserting. The is a positive assertion. It is what is called a unfalsifiable premise. An unfalsifiable premise isn't science, it is mere conjecture, a philosophical dead end.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #445 on: December 06, 2013, 09:35:09 PM »
With all due respect Skep I think your mind hovers somewhere around your backside,don't sit down for extended periods or your mind will go to sleep,,,,oops to late
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #446 on: December 06, 2013, 09:37:37 PM »
You are assuming a mind has to be around. You are assuming that your assumptions are good. You are assuming that nobody else could be right. You are assuming you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to assume how wrong you are.

No, that is not an assumption. That is based on evidence of us only knowing about things through minds.

We know things through mind. Yes. However things only work/exist because of minds is the premise you are asserting. The is a positive assertion. It is what is called a unfalsifiable premise. An unfalsifiable premise isn't science, it is mere conjecture, a philosophical dead end.

I see nobody wants to read the page so I'm gonna have to spoonfeed it to you guys.

Putting aside all of the forgoing lines of argument, Berkeley declared, the whole issue can be allowed to rest on a single question: is it possible to conceive of a sensible object existing independently of any perceiver? The challenge seems easy enough at first. All I have to do is think of something so remote—a tree in the middle of the forest, perhaps—that no one presently has it in mind. But if I conceive of this thing, then it is present in my mind as I think of it, so it is not truly independent of all perception.

----------------------------------

Take heat, for example: does it exist independently of our perception of it? When exposed to great heat I feel a pain that everyone acknowledges to be in me, not in the fire, Berkeley argued, so the warmth I feel when exposed to lesser heat must surely be the same. What is more, if dip both of my hands into a bowl of tepid water after chilling one and warming the other, the water will feel both warm and cold at the same time. Clearly, then, heat as I perceive it is nothing other than an idea in my mind.

Similar arguments and experiments establish that other sensible qualities—colors that vary with changes in ambient light, tastes and smells that change perceptibly when I have a cold, and sounds that depend for their quality on the position of my ears and conditions in the air—are, like heat, nothing but ideas in my mind. But the same considerations apply to primary qualities as well, Berkeley pointed out, since my perception of shape and size depend upon the position of my eyes, my experience of solidity depends upon my sense of touch, and my idea of motion is always relative to my own situation. Locke was correct in his view of secondary qualities but mistaken about primary qualities: all sensible qualities are just ideas.

--------------------------------------------

All of that is from the webpage I linked to.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #447 on: December 06, 2013, 09:37:47 PM »
You are assuming a mind has to be around. You are assuming that your assumptions are good. You are assuming that nobody else could be right. You are assuming you know what you're talking about.

I don't have to assume how wrong you are.

No, that is not an assumption. That is based on evidence of us only knowing about things through minds.
This premise if it only exists in say,,,,your mind,why are you arguing with yourself in your own mind?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #448 on: December 06, 2013, 09:40:26 PM »
This premise if it only exists in say,,,,your mind,why are you arguing with yourself in your own mind?

Bloody hell!

Read the webpage!!!!!!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #449 on: December 06, 2013, 09:40:59 PM »
The heat has a source that can be identified,does it not? The sun,electric heater,lava,fire. You pretending the heat has no source is plainly retarded
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #450 on: December 06, 2013, 09:44:49 PM »
The heat has a source that can be identified,does it not? The sun,electric heater,lava,fire. You pretending the heat has no source is plainly retarded

I will not respond anymore unless you read the webpage.

That is not what berkeley said!

He said the heat is not "hot" independent of perception. We just perceive it as hot. All that stuff you mentioned is still based on perception, not mind-independence.

Bloody hell!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #451 on: December 06, 2013, 09:45:23 PM »
This premise if it only exists in say,,,,your mind,why are you arguing with yourself in your own mind?

Bloody hell!

Read the webpage!!!!!!
I could read it but I won't
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #452 on: December 06, 2013, 09:48:06 PM »
The heat has a source that can be identified,does it not? The sun,electric heater,lava,fire. You pretending the heat has no source is plainly retarded

I will not respond anymore unless you read the webpage.

That is not what berkeley said!

He said the heat is not "hot" independent of perception. We just perceive it as hot. All that stuff you mentioned is still based on perception, not mind-independence.

Bloody hell!
It is hot because WE have labelled it that way,we could have an alien species out there who would not label it "hot" but as "cold" depending on the conditions of their planet of origin.......see I can spew out nonsensical garbage too.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #453 on: December 06, 2013, 09:48:15 PM »
This premise if it only exists in say,,,,your mind,why are you arguing with yourself in your own mind?

Bloody hell!

Read the webpage!!!!!!
I could read it but I won't

Because it would change your worldview.

that's not a good reason. That's childish.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #454 on: December 06, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »
This premise if it only exists in say,,,,your mind,why are you arguing with yourself in your own mind?

Bloody hell!

Read the webpage!!!!!!
I could read it but I won't

Because it would change your worldview.

that's not a good reason. That's childish.
No it would definitely  NOT,in the same way reading the Koran would fail to change your view and make you convert to Islam
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:51:19 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #455 on: December 06, 2013, 09:50:59 PM »
No it would definetley  NOT

How do you know it wouldn't if you haven't read it?

Sounds like you don't wanna give up materialism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #456 on: December 06, 2013, 09:51:49 PM »
See revised post
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #457 on: December 06, 2013, 09:58:31 PM »
I did read a bunch of it, but, in the end, it's all just a thought experiment. You can probably come up with some sort of scenario to prove more or less anything if you led off with questions like these and then steered them in whatever direction you wanted them to go. But, ultimately, that's just not the way the world works. 

You say you are not a solipsist. Fine. Neither are we (as far as I know, we don't have anyone here who espouses that philosophy). So, just because it's a philosophy which can be shoehorned into a world view (rather like a religion) doesn't mean anyone, even those people who like to play with the concepts involved, actually believe that the world behaves that way in real life.

There have been any number of very well-known philosophers throughout the ages, and they have come up with various models to explain "reality". There is no single one to whom we can point and say, "yes, this person worked it all out". Ultimately, it's all about what sorts of scenarios you can come up with, and how you can use (or sometimes abuse) the laws of logic to support them.

At least, as a non-philosophy-geek, that's the way it appears to me.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #458 on: December 06, 2013, 10:02:59 PM »
What you're not considering, you silly goose, is that maybe objects simply blink out of existence if we aren't perceiving them. That no god is involved, and trees and such just come and go as we think of them in our minds. You are adding a god when you have no way of knowing whether he is there perceiving the universe into existence or not.

You think that god perceiving everything is the reason it is there when you aren't looking. And you have no evidence for that.

You are assuming that you still have an ass when you are looking in the mirror.

You are hoping god is looking at it.

You are assuming he perceives you when you are asleep. If he doesn't, that would mean that you disappear at night

You are assuming a god in the picture because in the tiny world you have invented, you have to have him or your existence makes no sense.

You are adding a god for your convenience, not because he is necessary.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #459 on: December 06, 2013, 10:11:14 PM »
What you're not considering, you silly goose, is that maybe objects simply blink out of existence if we aren't perceiving them. That no god is involved, and trees and such just come and go as we think of them in our minds. You are adding a god when you have no way of knowing whether he is there perceiving the universe into existence or not.

You think that god perceiving everything is the reason it is there when you aren't looking. And you have no evidence for that.

You are assuming that you still have an ass when you are looking in the mirror.

You are hoping god is looking at it.

You are assuming he perceives you when you are asleep. If he doesn't, that would mean that you disappear at night

You are assuming a god in the picture because in the tiny world you have invented, you have to have him or your existence makes no sense.

You are adding a god for your convenience, not because he is necessary.

Your point is answered in the "Common Sense" section of that webpage I linked to.

Care to give it a whirl?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #460 on: December 06, 2013, 10:13:47 PM »
care to give the Koran a whirl?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #461 on: December 06, 2013, 10:16:48 PM »
care to give the Koran a whirl?

This is completely different.

Immaterialism is based on empiricism.
Atheists love empiricism.
Ergo, atheists should be immaterialists.
but then they wouldn't be atheists anymore anyway.

Perhaps the 4th sentence is the scary one for you guys.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #462 on: December 06, 2013, 10:17:31 PM »


you are assuming a "fossil" is a "fossil" when no minds are around.

As in the number of molecules and their configuration, the fact said molecules are following a pattern establish by once living matter...yes.

The interpretation of those molecules as a "fossil" no.

You assume the senses are 100% telling the truth.


No. I assume they generally give me a working idea of reality.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #463 on: December 06, 2013, 10:18:11 PM »
The Koran is shorter and has much more clarity than the OT and NT with NONE of the contradictory bullshit,I think you should give it a go,you will find Mohamed to be the true path to God,not Jesus.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)