Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 66441 times)

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Offline xyzzy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #290 on: December 05, 2013, 12:15:03 AM »
One's religion is directly connected (generally) to their geographic location. This indicates that 'God' is man-made not the other way around.

If god is really all that, why the hell does he need lower middle class black people from Chicago to save everyone on the planet from Armageddon? Why doesn't god just tell everyone himself and make sure they all know exactly what they need to know? What is the need of sacred verses, holy books and translating and mis-translating? Why doesn't god get off his holy a$$ and go somewhere and do something?  :P

The very first thing all missionaries do is discover, always to their dismay, that the local people have their own false god(s) and have never heard of the true one(s). Just once, I am sure, Christians want to arrive on some island in the middle of nowhere and find isolated natives in the jungle kneeling in front of a coconut tree cross with a coconut shell Jesus hanging on it, praying in fluent Latin to the god of Christianity. Reading the OT from palm-leaf bibles in thatch-roofed churches lit by wooden bike power a la Gilligan's Island. &)

Wouldn't that be something.

The idea of a God seems to have been implanted into their consciousness, all the same. And often when they do hear about Jesus, they somehow know straightaway that He really was the son of the one true God and start following Him.

How does that happen, one asks?

Well, those I've spoken to who have been on mission work, usually to some impoverished, undereducated, region which has often just suffered a god-supplied? natural disaster, have provided some clues.

These kind people help the indigenous population to understand how their false god has not attended to their needs, and that the nice, kind, loving Christians are there because the Christian god loves them and wants to help them. The nice, kind, Christian workers are only too happy to replace existing superstitious beliefs with supposedly more effective ones. The powerful implication being that the Christian god is the impetus behind that clean water, and that lovely school in which the locals can voluntarily learn about this new god.

What they are not taught is that these advancements are the product of the scientific method, and not the Christian god.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:17:00 AM by xyzzy »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #291 on: December 05, 2013, 12:18:10 AM »
Your insights vary mightily from mine.
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #292 on: December 05, 2013, 12:26:30 AM »
Great book! (if only for a perspective on the Belgian Congo in the 60's and 70's.) The family telling the story are missionaries from the US, and the author does a great job of making the huge gap of understanding between the two cultures very real but quite sympathetic. It's a good read. The conversion of the native villagers unfolds in a way that seems likely to mimic the process in reality, and I honestly don't think you'd find the book offensive or ...spiritually challenging? Although the father character is somewhat heavy-handed and authoritarian, even he is portrayed with a eye toward seeing the person behind the ego. Recommended read for a perspective on missionary work.

Does it have any green mamba snakes? I like green mamba snakes.
Snakes, definitely, although I don't recall specific breeds.
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Offline xyzzy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #293 on: December 05, 2013, 12:52:20 AM »
Your insights vary mightily from mine.

If that is in response to my post then, yes, I readily accept that what others have told me about their experiences may, well, differ from your insights.

However, I would be more than delighted to hear about your experiences of Christian missionaries who have provided unbiased education in comparative religion, and have taught under-educated peoples how to utilise, and advance, technology without recourse to superstition.

Can you do this for me?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman

You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #294 on: December 05, 2013, 12:59:16 AM »
Your insights vary mightily from mine.

If that is in response to my post then, yes, I readily accept that what others have told me about their experiences may, well, differ from your insights.

However, I would be more than delighted to hear about your experiences of Christian missionaries who have provided unbiased education in comparative religion, and have taught under-educated peoples how to utilise, and advance, technology without recourse to superstition.

Can you do this for me?

The first part, almost certainly not. Every Christian missionary I have personally known teaches that there is one true God, revealed in the bible and Jesus was God's son. That does not mean to say they would never discuss what other religions are based on and teach. I think that is inevitable.

The second part, most definitely. I don't know any Christians who are scared of science or shy about using technology, and giving due credit to ingenoius men and women who develop it.

I know of a missionary based in the southern Philippines, an extremely dangerous area filled with vicious gangs. He and his family are safe because this missionary essentially taught himself to perform basic surgery. One night he saved the life of the biggest gang leader in the region.
It's good to know the door can still be open wide.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #295 on: December 05, 2013, 01:00:31 AM »


Can you do this for me?

That sounds rather condescending by the way. I'm not your 1st grade pupil requiring encouragement to perform some task.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #296 on: December 05, 2013, 01:07:35 AM »
One night he saved the life of the biggest gang leader in the region.

That sounds like the moment in the movie, Horrible Bosses, where the guy saves the person they are trying to kill, ... or that moment in Dexter where he stops the Trinity killer from committing suicide.

Well, at least he can continue to preach Christianity, while being protected by the mob.

Sounds like the Catholic church, really.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #297 on: December 05, 2013, 01:08:01 AM »


Can you do this for me?

That sounds rather condescending by the way. I'm not your 1st grade pupil requiring encouragement to perform some task.

Not at all, it was a genuine request for your participation. My apologies to you that it came over in a different manner.  The rest I will respond to tomorrow.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman

You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #298 on: December 05, 2013, 01:15:23 AM »
No worries. I can't guarantee my own further involvement. I'm flighty. But I will try to return. Still trying to find time to study up on the Eurythmo Problem
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #299 on: December 05, 2013, 01:32:11 AM »
What they are not taught is that these advancements are the product of the scientific method, and not the Christian god.

Actually, it is a mixture of both.

Christians started science. Since the Bible teaches that God created the laws of nature, the early Christian scientists wanted to examine the orderly universe that God created for us.

Science has been subject to a lot of perversion recently though. It is no longer dominated by honest Christians looking to understand God's universe. It's now godless and corrupted.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ThatZenoGuy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #300 on: December 05, 2013, 02:01:33 AM »
BAHAHAHA...

Corrupted?

Really?

What possible gain would there be for scientists to go around saying "Lol, god didn't do this, natural processes, evolution and stuff did."
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #301 on: December 05, 2013, 02:15:33 AM »
BAHAHAHA...

Corrupted?

Really?

What possible gain would there be for scientists to go around saying "Lol, god didn't do this, natural processes, evolution and stuff did."

Illuminati does it, not the scientists. They just want Christianity destroyed.

Not everything in science is corrupted, but much of it is. Mainly big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution. Abiogenesis still has no empirical backing. It's based on the circular logic of, "Well we are here, so life must have formed on its own."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #302 on: December 05, 2013, 02:17:06 AM »
BAHAHAHA...

Corrupted?

Really?

What possible gain would there be for scientists to go around saying "Lol, god didn't do this, natural processes, evolution and stuff did."

Illuminati does it, not the scientists. They just want Christianity destroyed.

Not everything in science is corrupted, but much of it is. Mainly big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution. Abiogenesis still has no empirical backing. It's based on the circular logic of, "Well we are here, so life must have formed on its own."
listen, troll, the bible is enough to destroy christianity. its doing a good job at this point.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #303 on: December 05, 2013, 02:20:57 AM »
listen, troll, the bible is enough to destroy christianity. its doing a good job at this point.

I do not see any empirical backing for abiogenesis in your post.
Do you concede that there is no empirical backing for it?

Don't blame me. It is not my fault there is no empirical backing for it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #304 on: December 05, 2013, 02:21:51 AM »
Not everything in science is corrupted, but much of it is. Mainly big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution. Abiogenesis still has no empirical backing. It's based on the circular logic of, "Well we are here, so life must have formed on its own."

Christianity still has no empirical backing. It's based on the circular logic of, "Well the bible says so, so god must've done it."
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #305 on: December 05, 2013, 02:24:46 AM »
Christianity still has no empirical backing. It's based on the circular logic of, "Well the bible says so, so god must've done it."

So basically, one is no better than the other according to you?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #306 on: December 05, 2013, 02:30:40 AM »
Abiogenesis has far more going for it than creationism.

Abiogenesis involves trying to examine the available evidence and seeing where that leads us.

Creationism involves looking at a dusty old book and going "welp, there's the answer, lets not look any further".
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #307 on: December 05, 2013, 02:42:39 AM »
Christians started science.

Nope.  Mesopotamia, China, Egypt and Greece already had a history of scientific discovery long before the first Christian walked the Earth.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #308 on: December 05, 2013, 02:44:47 AM »
Abiogenesis has far more going for it than creationism.

Abiogenesis involves trying to examine the available evidence and seeing where that leads us.

Creationism involves looking at a dusty old book and going "welp, there's the answer, lets not look any further".

OK, so what is the evidence for abiogenesis?
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #309 on: December 05, 2013, 02:57:55 AM »
OK, so what is the evidence for abiogenesis?

I'm really not the one to talk about abiogenesis in depth.  But I can point to where the subject is talked about thoroughly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/


Care to go through them?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #310 on: December 05, 2013, 03:08:16 AM »
OK, so what is the evidence for abiogenesis?

I'm really not the one to talk about abiogenesis in depth.  But I can point to where the subject is talked about thoroughly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/


Care to go through them?

The talk origins link says that it is rejected by creationists because of its impossibility.

I personally don't argue that. I argue that there is no empirical backing for it, so it can't be scientific.

It can be religious, but not scientific.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #311 on: December 05, 2013, 03:16:27 AM »
The talk origins link says that it is rejected by creationists because of its impossibility.

I personally don't argue that. I argue that there is no empirical backing for it, so it can't be scientific.

It can be religious, but not scientific.

Both links refers to several scientific studies done on the subject.  It has nothing to do with religion.
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Offline ThatZenoGuy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #312 on: December 05, 2013, 03:19:15 AM »
The talk origins link says that it is rejected by creationists because of its impossibility.


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Wrong.

It states.
Quote
Creationists have asserted that a statistical principle called "Borel's Law" mathematically demonstrates that abiogenesis is impossible.

Note: Creationists.

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Offline Hatter23

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #314 on: December 05, 2013, 08:33:15 AM »
The talk origins link says that it is rejected by creationists because of its impossibility. it disagrees with there unsupported illogical and unnegatiable assertion

fixed that for you
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #315 on: December 05, 2013, 10:17:07 AM »
Abiogenesis has far more going for it than creationism.

Abiogenesis involves trying to examine the available evidence and seeing where that leads us.

Creationism involves looking at a dusty old book and going "welp, there's the answer, lets not look any further".

OK, so what is the evidence for abiogenesis?


I hate to start posting on here by being confrontational, or by playing "pile on the theist", but I have a question that I think is important to this exchange:

What would you consider acceptable evidence for abiogenesis? Would a detailed description of the probable process be enough or would we have to reproduce it in a lab?

2ndly; Whatever your standards of evidence may be, can you provide evidence for creation by a deity that would meet those standards?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #316 on: December 05, 2013, 10:50:24 AM »
Welcome to the forum RED_ApeTHEIST (is that a hellboy reference?)
Good questions for Skeptic.


Science has been subject to a lot of perversion recently though. It is no longer dominated by honest Christians looking to understand God's universe. It's now godless and corrupted.
I suspect you only think this as science moves further and further away from the "god did it" conclusions you want to see.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:56:35 AM by Jonny-UK »
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #317 on: December 05, 2013, 11:14:28 AM »
What would you consider acceptable evidence for abiogenesis? Would a detailed description of the probable process be enough or would we have to reproduce it in a lab?
Is it in the bible?    no- not evidence    yes- must be true

Quote
2ndly; Whatever your standards of evidence may be, can you provide evidence for creation by a deity that would meet those standards?
It's in the bible, thats all I need.

Sorry Skeptic, but I just know what your answers are going to be.
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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #318 on: December 05, 2013, 11:23:18 AM »

Wouldn't that be something.

The idea of a God seems to have been implanted into their consciousness, all the same. And often when they do hear about Jesus, they somehow know straightaway that He really was the son of the one true God and start following Him.

There are lots of things that 'seem to be implanted in human consciousness' but this has no bearing on whether those beliefs are true. Are you really that naive? Second, they do not "know straightaway" (they are convinced) b/c, like you, they are gullible. Scores of magicians and con artists tell this tale very well. Humans are easily fooled into false beliefs. Did you not know this?

Besides this fact, not all people have some inherent 'deity' belief. Lots of people grow up in non-religious societies and have no belief in any god 'thing' whatever. The only ones who think otherwise are the ones who buy wholesale the tall tale told by Paul in Romans ch 1. But just saying something is so (and writing it down) doesn't make it so (sorry Paul!).
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