Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 18027 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #261 on: December 02, 2013, 12:42:43 PM »
The concept of might makes right, though frowned upon by nearly all, is in a real respect a reality that has been the norm throughout existence. Exceptions have always been make for those people or entities with the means and power to see to it that rules don't apply to them in the same way they do everyone else.

Some examples include that police officer that turns on his sirens so he can run a red light, the parent that can restrict a child to having to stay confined to a single room for a given duration of time, as well as humans having the gall (right) to conduct experiments on animals.

All that to say that the concept of might equals right is real and plays out in our lives daily.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #262 on: December 02, 2013, 12:52:03 PM »
<snip>

I'm going to have to disagree with your terminology. Might makes things possible. Just because people with power do something doesn't make it right. It just means they have the power to do it. This also applies to a hypothetical petty god, such as YHWH. It sends people to hell because it can. Doesn't mean it should, and it certainly doesn't mean it's right.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #263 on: December 02, 2013, 12:56:31 PM »
<snip>

I'm going to have to disagree with your terminology. Might makes things possible. Just because people with power do something doesn't make it right. It just means they have the power to do it. This also applies to a hypothetical petty god, such as YHWH. It sends people to hell because it can. Doesn't mean it should, and it certainly doesn't mean it's right.

But what is "right" but a concept that we have surmized that indicates what behaviors are acceptable and what behaviors are not?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #264 on: December 02, 2013, 01:03:22 PM »
But what is "right" but a concept that we have surmized that indicates what behaviors are acceptable and what behaviors are not?

My point remains. Their behavior is not acceptable. Accepted[1]=/=Acceptable.
 1. Which it isn't, but, for the sake of this argument, let's say it is.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #265 on: December 02, 2013, 03:22:50 PM »
It's the difference between "accepting" someone's behavior when you have no choice in the matter, versus agreeing that someone's behavior meets the minimum standard commonly agreed upon in your society as "acceptable".
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #266 on: December 02, 2013, 04:05:00 PM »
If the person in charge of the rules is exempt from the rules, and furthermore, is not even to be questioned about the rules, everything makes perfect sense. It has to makes sense. Especially if the rules supposedly come from god, the biggest dictator of all.

And if the ruler tells you that the earth is 9,000 years old and is at the center of the solar system, or to not eat a certain food, or to have lots of babies, or not to have lots of babies, or cut off a body part of someone who steals, or stone a rape victim to death, or torture a child with fire in the basement, or make other people into your slaves, or go to war against a neighboring group for their land, or to drink a glass of kool-aid with cyanide in it, you do it.

Who the hell are you to demand explanations or reasons? Trust that your ruler knows best. You have no choice in the matter. And when the ruler tells you to do the opposite of what they just said to do, you change on a dime and forget there was ever any difference. Today you love Goldstein and tomorrow you hate him. Don't think about it, just shut up and obey.  Whatever the ruler wants.



Goes back to religion being quite compatible with dictatorship-- religion is such wonderful dictatorship glue. We should try to be better than the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, or the Catholic monarchies of medieval Europe. Just because we have a lot of examples does not mean "might makes right" and "shut yer traitorous face, dammit" are the best ways to run a society.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #267 on: December 02, 2013, 06:45:10 PM »
This thread is just another example of how when Christians can't handle the truth, they bail out and keep believing bullshit instead of amending their beliefs that have been refuted.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #268 on: December 02, 2013, 07:16:11 PM »
This thread is just another example of how when Christians can't handle the truth, they bail out and keep believing bullshit instead of amending their beliefs that have been refuted.

I haven't yet had time to research the Eurthymic dilema but I'll get to it. Maybe when tomorrow comes.

As for your post quoted here, are you suggesting that I, for instance, genuinely have been convinced that my beliefs are wrong but cling to them anyway?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #269 on: December 02, 2013, 07:22:44 PM »
This thread is just another example of how when Christians can't handle the truth, they bail out and keep believing bullshit instead of amending their beliefs that have been refuted.

I haven't yet had time to research the Eurthymic dilema but I'll get to it. Maybe when tomorrow comes.

As for your post quoted here, are you suggesting that I, for instance, genuinely have been convinced that my beliefs are wrong but cling to them anyway?

I never used the word 'convinced'. Being refuted, and admitting that you've been refuted (i.e. - dropping the spin, rationalizing, cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias or etc, and coming to that admission) are two entirely different things. If you'd like to continue this discussion, by all means. Please respond to the previous posts which were responses to your posts.

Btw, its the Euthyphro Dilemma.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Euthyphro_dilemma
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Azdgari

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #270 on: December 04, 2013, 02:57:12 PM »
As for your post quoted here, are you suggesting that I, for instance, genuinely have been convinced that my beliefs are wrong but cling to them anyway?

If he did, then you of all people would have no grounds to object.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #271 on: December 04, 2013, 03:04:45 PM »
As for your post quoted here, are you suggesting that I, for instance, genuinely have been convinced that my beliefs are wrong but cling to them anyway?

If he did, then you of all people would have no grounds to object.

I wouldn't object to that asertion being made, no. But I would know differently.

Also, in the post you allude to, I speak more of getting a sense of God's presence as opposed to having a full on, relaity staring me in the face type of belief.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #272 on: December 04, 2013, 05:23:12 PM »
As for your post quoted here, are you suggesting that I, for instance, genuinely have been convinced that my beliefs are wrong but cling to them anyway?

If he did, then you of all people would have no grounds to object.

I wouldn't object to that asertion being made, no. But I would know differently.

Also, in the post you allude to, I speak more of getting a sense of God's presence as opposed to having a full on, relaity staring me in the face type of belief.

How can you distinguish this 'sense' you claim to have from SPAG, self delusion, emotional feelings, or misinterpretation of purely natural phenomena? Self diagnosis of alleged internal experiences like this are highly subject to error, misinterpretation, confirmation bias, and false memory from wishful thinking. Further, basing your entire life on said experiences (including the fashion in which you interpret said 'holy' texts which are connected to these alleged experiences) is not a reliable method for fact finding (since you are allowing your personal subjective interpretation of an alleged 'experience' to govern how you interpret evidence to the contrary of it). A subjective "sense" is not a reliable foundation for determining what is true from what is not true (especially when every religion makes claims to this effect and they contradict your own). Why aren't you practicing more critical thinking and having a higher standard of evidence than this?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #273 on: December 04, 2013, 05:26:21 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #274 on: December 04, 2013, 05:33:07 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.

And everyone on planet earth, at one time or another, has been mistaken about their personal subjective experiences and their interpretations of them. People "feel" their partner loves them and then realize the other person does not and has been cheating and is leaving. They claim a strong "intuition" about an alleged thing happening (and it does not), or they 'just know in their heart' that their son could not be a murderer (when it is later discovered that he is).

Feelings are highly inaccurate and very subject to error. Why are you attempting to approach fact finding this way? Why would you trust some feeling which you know is subject to grievous error?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Boots

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #275 on: December 04, 2013, 05:45:44 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.

I'm an excellent case in point to support median's post.  As a teen, I definitely "felt" god's presence.  That feeling was the last thing that prevented me from calling myself an atheist, after having gone from a die-hard RC contemplating priesthood to gradually rejecting all religion and belief in any god who takes a daily interest in our lives--but that pesky memory of that feeling experience remained.  I did an experiment, and was able to (nearly) replicate that feeling using exercise and martial arts training, completely exclusive of god worship or superstition of any kind.  that was the final nail in my theistic coffin, the final step in my transition to atheist.

I opine that I am more convinced than you.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #276 on: December 04, 2013, 05:47:50 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.

I claim everyone who believes in God makes up out of their own heads the majority of what they claim is true and refuse to admit that they're full of beans.

I'm convinced.

Are you really bringing this up again? :o

Meanwhile, back to the conversation; you might be right if you limit your inclusion to those of us who readily admit to being former believers. I certainly did experience exactly what you are referring to, but I was quite young still and had no frame of reference to compare it to. I also have had a sense of magic being a reality too, among many, many other similar things. That "sense" is the problem - it can be attributed to any number of external stimuli when in reality it's an internal sensation. So what? I've had a sense of dread that is just as random and just as pervasive, and based on absolutely nothing concrete as well. I've been overwhelmed by sadness, seemingly from nowhere, and also by joy, in the same inspried-by-nothing-specific. Humans have emotional experiences. The urge to make our own experiences extra-special (even if only in our minds) is a function of our ego, not a supernatural entity.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #277 on: December 04, 2013, 06:13:47 PM »
there is absolutely nothing my child could ever do that I would torture her in any manner. Absolutely nothing.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #278 on: December 04, 2013, 06:29:15 PM »
It is very hard to monitor your own brain functions--feelings come from your brain and feelings can lie. Mental illness like schizophrenia[1] is only one extreme example of that; think of all the mistakes and illusions that we fall for in our everyday lives! The fluttering leaf that looks like a rat at first; the crumpled paper that you think is money until you see it is a cigarette package; the piece of chocolate cake in the fridge that turns out to be some strange brown cheese.  :(

Con artists, casinos, prostitutes, drug dealers, cults and advertisers use the exact same manipulative techniques as mainstream religious groups to get us to feel stuff that is not true. Things that get your imagination and heart rate going, but are not what you think.

Try to convince a clinically depressed person that there is nothing to be sad about. Try to convince a love-struck teen that in a year they will have forgotten that rock star who snubbed them when they asked for his autograph. Try to convince a racist that they are wrong about Jews, blacks or Mexicans being the cause of all the world's problems.

Try to convince a member of a different religion (Islam, or Hinduism or JW's) that their equally intense religious feelings are not coming from the one true faith....
 1. I just watched A Beautiful Mind where the guy had a college roommate/life long best friend whose existence turned out to be an illusion!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online xyzzy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #279 on: December 04, 2013, 06:51:15 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.

I claim everyone who believes in God makes up out of their own heads the majority of what they claim is true and refuse to admit that they're full of beans.

I'm convinced.

I'm unaware of the reference but, no absolutely no, I have never, ever, ever, sensed that any god was a reality. Ever.

I was, however, told that Yahweh was real. I was told to believe. But, at the risk of beating a dead horse, I was also told that the tooth-fairy was real, babies came via storks, Father Christmas came down the chimney, and that Budweiser was decent beer.

My sense of a god was never any more real than any of those items and, frankly, was dissipated way before I cottoned on to the truth of Father Christmas. Sigh, I wish someone had warned me about Budweiser sooner though, as that could have saved some taste buds from an untimely death.

there is absolutely nothing my child could ever do that I would torture her in any manner. Absolutely nothing.

I am also unable to conceive of doing such a thing. Just considering it fills me with disgust. That must be those morals I, as an atheist, don't have kicking in and messing me up again.

Edit: I'm assuming that magicmiles is referring to something specific that one reflectively ascribes to a god and not hijacking feelings of smallness and intensity when considering such things as our place in the universe, or the origin of life.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 PM by xyzzy »
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You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #280 on: December 04, 2013, 06:58:25 PM »
I just watched A Beautiful Mind where the guy had a college roommate/life long best friend whose existence turned out to be an illusion![/nb]

You know what i am going to say...t-*redacted*

So, if the "feeling" of being correct makes the religion correct, doesn't that make every single religion correct?
Which obviously cannot be the correct answer.
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #281 on: December 04, 2013, 07:06:03 PM »
It is very hard to monitor your own brain functions--feelings come from your brain and feelings can lie. Mental illness like schizophrenia[1] is only one extreme example of that; think of all the mistakes and illusions that we fall for in our everyday lives! The fluttering leaf that looks like a rat at first; the crumpled paper that you think is money until you see it is a cigarette package; the piece of chocolate cake in the fridge that turns out to be some strange brown cheese.  :(

Con artists, casinos, prostitutes, drug dealers, cults and advertisers use the exact same manipulative techniques as mainstream religious groups to get us to feel stuff that is not true. Things that get your imagination and heart rate going, but are not what you think.

Try to convince a clinically depressed person that there is nothing to be sad about. Try to convince a love-struck teen that in a year they will have forgotten that rock star who snubbed them when they asked for his autograph. Try to convince a racist that they are wrong about Jews, blacks or Mexicans being the cause of all the world's problems.

Try to convince a member of a different religion (Islam, or Hinduism or JW's) that their equally intense religious feelings are not coming from the one true faith....
 1. I just watched A Beautiful Mind where the guy had a college roommate/life long best friend whose existence turned out to be an illusion!

Exactly.

Edit: Forgot to add the link

« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:08:38 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #282 on: December 04, 2013, 07:37:28 PM »

So, if the "feeling" of being correct makes the religion correct, doesn't that make every single religion correct?
Which obviously cannot be the correct answer.

No, this is just the religious believers tactic for hiding away their religion so that it will be immune from refutation. Claim that it is non-falsifiable, internal, subjective, and/or "personal to me", so that they are immune from having to give actual evidence and so that they can ultimately retreat back to it when all other arguments fail. Religious people inherently know they have no demonstrable evidence that is sufficient to warrant belief (like one would expect for any other phenomena in life). They argue that way merely as a defense strategy to keep away anyone from refuting their "personal experience" assumption and b/c they assumed their religion was true from the outset (either due to cultural or societal influence, their parents, etc). This is why someone who grows up in India will become Hindu, if anything, and why someone in Saudi Arabia will become Muslim. One's religion is directly connected (generally) to their geographic location. This indicates that 'God' is man-made not the other way around.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #283 on: December 04, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »
The post I refer to is one in which I claim everybody on this website has at one time or another gotten a sense of God being a reality.

I am convinced.
Convinced of what ? I never having a "God" experience,asking for "God's" help or any of the things you associate with a "God". Am I an anomaly,or was I raised the proper way where I use my rational mind?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #284 on: December 04, 2013, 11:25:57 PM »
One's religion is directly connected (generally) to their geographic location. This indicates that 'God' is man-made not the other way around.

Yet another reason, besides getting to sleep in on weekends, for being an atheist: Gods are all geographically limited and do not travel well.

Nobody ever knows of any religion or gods other than the ones that arise in their own fixed geographical locations. It is like there are no transcendent supernatural powers to these beings at all, because they all rely completely on the ability of humans to tell other humans about them. Or not. This is hardly good evidence for an all-powerful being. This is so obvious to us godless infidels, but seems never to occur to religious folks. 

The very first thing all missionaries do is discover, always to their dismay, that the local people have their own false god(s) and have never heard of the true one(s). Just once, I am sure, Christians want to arrive on some island in the middle of nowhere and find isolated natives in the jungle kneeling in front of a coconut tree cross with a coconut shell Jesus hanging on it, praying in fluent Latin to the god of Christianity. Reading the OT from palm-leaf bibles in thatch-roofed churches lit by wooden bike power a la Gilligan's Island. &)

But gods cannot cross mountains, deserts, or, especially, oceans. It is like the gods all have fear of heights, agoraphobia or sea sickness or something--no Dramamine in heaven? Nobody in the Americas or the Pacific ever heard of Jesus, Jehovah, Shango, Yemayah, Muhammed or Allah before the arrival of Africans and Europeans. Nobody in Asia or Africa ever heard of Zeus or Quetzalcoatl.

Is a puzzlement, to steal from Yul Brynner.

As a JW kid, I spent a lot of my spare time witnessing to other people about Jehovah God. Every single weekend, we went house to housing. It was unthinkable to stay home and watch cartoons when there were all these desperate sinners out there waiting for us to save them from Satan. If the JW's didn't personally get to absolutely everyone, then they would never know about true Christianity and would all perish. An awesome responsibility to put on a small child. :o

Now I wonder how all those thousands of JW's[1] miss this very basic point: god is perfect, outside of space and time, way more powerful, more knowledgeable than we are; yet, for some reason he depends completely on us effed up flawed humans to do get his most important work done.

Whatever happened to "if you want something done right, do it yourself?" :?

If god is really all that, why the hell does he need lower middle class black people from Chicago to save everyone on the planet from Armageddon? Why doesn't god just tell everyone himself and make sure they all know exactly what they need to know? What is the need of sacred verses, holy books and translating and mis-translating? Why doesn't god get off his holy a$$ and go somewhere and do something?  :P
 1. oh, and yes, the millions of other missionaries, televangelists, crusaders and proselytizers out there
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #285 on: December 04, 2013, 11:33:37 PM »


The very first thing all missionaries do is discover, always to their dismay, that the local people have their own false god(s) and have never heard of the true one(s). Just once, I am sure, Christians want to arrive on some island in the middle of nowhere and find isolated natives in the jungle kneeling in front of a coconut tree cross with a coconut shell Jesus hanging on it, praying in fluent Latin to the god of Christianity. Reading the OT from palm-leaf bibles in thatch-roofed churches lit by wooden bike power a la Gilligan's Island. &)

Wouldn't that be something.

The idea of a God seems to have been implanted into their consciousness, all the same. And often when they do hear about Jesus, they somehow know straightaway that He really was the son of the one true God and start following Him.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #286 on: December 04, 2013, 11:53:01 PM »
^^^Have you ever read the Barbara Kingsolver novel The Poisonwood Bible?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #287 on: December 04, 2013, 11:53:45 PM »
^^^Have you ever read the Barbara Kingsolver novel The Poisonwood Bible?

No Ma'am.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #288 on: December 05, 2013, 12:09:51 AM »
Great book! (if only for a perspective on the Belgian Congo in the 60's and 70's.) The family telling the story are missionaries from the US, and the author does a great job of making the huge gap of understanding between the two cultures very real but quite sympathetic. It's a good read. The conversion of the native villagers unfolds in a way that seems likely to mimic the process in reality, and I honestly don't think you'd find the book offensive or ...spiritually challenging? Although the father character is somewhat heavy-handed and authoritarian, even he is portrayed with a eye toward seeing the person behind the ego. Recommended read for a perspective on missionary work.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #289 on: December 05, 2013, 12:13:59 AM »
Great book! (if only for a perspective on the Belgian Congo in the 60's and 70's.) The family telling the story are missionaries from the US, and the author does a great job of making the huge gap of understanding between the two cultures very real but quite sympathetic. It's a good read. The conversion of the native villagers unfolds in a way that seems likely to mimic the process in reality, and I honestly don't think you'd find the book offensive or ...spiritually challenging? Although the father character is somewhat heavy-handed and authoritarian, even he is portrayed with a eye toward seeing the person behind the ego. Recommended read for a perspective on missionary work.

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