Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 16545 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2013, 04:26:21 AM »
MM why does Christianity apply to everybody and not just followers of the Christian God? You say so? Saying rules God set out only apply to the people it was written for,then Christians are the only ones it applies to now right?

That isn't making a lot of sense to me sorry. I truly don't understand what you're asking.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2013, 04:31:22 AM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.

What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
I can commit any crime I please as long as I come around to loving Jesus in the end,and I accept him.

Do you have a problem with the idea of God offering forgiveness to those who are truly repentant?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2013, 04:44:40 AM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.

What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine.

Well, I'm confused. It's as cruel as it gets... but not if someone disagrees. In that case, its....what?


It just goes to show that it's inherently subjective, and any claims to objective morality is doomed to fail.

I don't think it shows anything of the sort.


EDIT:
Also any claims of objective morality are defeated anyway, by the very loophole provided by biblegod: Jesus.

What?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2013, 04:52:12 AM »
What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine.

Well, I'm confused. It's as cruel as it gets... but not if someone disagrees. In that case, its....what?

Try reading for comprehension. Antidote has said it's fine if someone disagree with him, not that it's suddenly not as cruel as it gets if someone disagrees with him, as if someone disagreeing with him would change his opinion.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2013, 04:58:06 AM »
The ten commandments says nothing about loving god, or loving others.

As a christian, you should know this.

I see I  have to break it down to the absolute "bare bones" to get the point across.

Commandments 1-4: All deal with loving God.

Commandment 5: Honor father and mother. This deals with loving others. You will honor your parents because you love them.

Commandment 6: Don't kill. This deals with loving others. You won't kill if you love someone.

Commandment 7: No adultery. This deals with loving others. You won't commit adultery if you love the person.

Commandment 8: Don't lie. This deals with loving others. You won't lie if you love others.

Commandments 9-10: Don't steal from your neighbor. This deals with loving others. You won't steal from them if you love them.

This is not rocket science.

That's pretty distorted, for someone who claims to know the Bible. "Love thy neighbour" comes from Lev 19:18, and Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

It's a bit hyperbolic to say that you love someone, if you don't kill them. By that criterion, I love Skep. You may merely tolerate them - like your parents.

In the case of adultery, the Jews allowed for divorce and polygamy. The Jesus puritans changed all that, so you couldn't lovingly divorce someone. Adultery laws in the 10 comms and the rest of the law, are purely about property. My wife is my property. You will notice that if you work through the laws, there is no prohibition on a married man having sex, or raping a divorced, or free woman. It's not about harming or loving your current wife, at all. It's about stealing another man's wife.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/865-adultery

In the case of "false witness", in the decalogue, it refers to court testimony. If you could lie in court, you could have someone executed. Leviticus 6 deals with some other property reasons you might lie, but other prohibitions are scattered around the place
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10206-lying

In the case of theft, it's still about property, not love. Keeping law and order.

I think Christians like to pretend that Jesus told them to follow only the decalogue, when he says "commandments" in Mark and Matt, but it's obviously a lie.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #121 on: November 18, 2013, 05:04:23 AM »
You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?

The OT laws are not to be followed anymore.  I see.  Does that include the ten commandments?  They are OT laws as well.

Good question. Its actually a major point of disagreement amongst some Christians. (you probably know that). The laws I refer to, and which most Christians mean when referring to OT law are the ceremonial laws. They tend to be very detailed and often are clearly only relevant to specific Jewish customs. The ten commandments are much broader, and almost all of them are repeated/reintroduced by Jesus during His time on earth. On this basis, most Christians (including myself) tend to believe that these commandments should be kept as closely as possible.

Of course, highly relevant is the almost unanimous, and clearly scriptual belief amongst Christians that keeping laws does not restore us to relationship with God. Jesus does that, and when we trust in Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit to work in us and convict us of God's desire for how we ought to live.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #122 on: November 18, 2013, 05:08:10 AM »
You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?

The OT laws are not to be followed anymore.  I see.  Does that include the ten commandments?  They are OT laws as well.
Isn't that passage about "man laying with man as one would lie with a woman" in the OT? Or am I mistaken.

It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #123 on: November 18, 2013, 05:11:19 AM »
MM saying the OT laws only applied to the people he intended them for (his original followers,the Jews) can not be backed away from now.  How on earth do you now retract that statement?

What? How and where have I attempted to retract anything?

Sorry, 12M, but your posts generally in this thread aren't making much sesne to me.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #124 on: November 18, 2013, 05:17:11 AM »
It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?

SPAG homophobia?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #125 on: November 18, 2013, 05:18:32 AM »
No, you've edited my post to make it fit your interpretation. The bible demands a most of those things, and gives a way out of punishment for the rest, if that is not a form of endorsement then I don't know what is.

Bold mine. Demands them of who? If you think those things are demanded of anybody other than the original recipients of the laws, please explain to me why. Make a case for it.

I flip that question and return it to you, why doesn't gods word apply to people equally?

Here's a good article on the relationship between OT law and Christianity.

http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363


 You've basically said that we can disregard the entire bible since it "doesn't apply to us."

No. I'm not. That's just your mis-understanding.

But for the sake of honesty, here my case: If gods word does not apply equally, why abide by it at all? If you are able to cherry pick and only follow laws that you're comfortable with, why abide by them at all?

You've just killed your biblical morality inadvertently, how do you wish to recover it?
[/quote]
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #126 on: November 18, 2013, 05:19:44 AM »
It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?

SPAG homophobia?

Any serious answers? Or is that actually the best you can do?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #127 on: November 18, 2013, 05:22:21 AM »
Null and void if you accept and love Jesus?

Somehow, they became null and void when Jesus got hammered up,which was his plan all along.  We're suppose to accept and love him for taking down the rules that he himself established.  So... he made up a bunch of rules he intended to have a limited lifetime... and then didn't list which ones are still suppose to be in effect.  I still don't know if I'm allowed to boil a baby goat in its mother's milk.   :-\

have a look through this article..it's a straight forward explanation of the OT/NT interplay. I linked it above also, but in case you miss it.

http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #128 on: November 18, 2013, 05:24:42 AM »
It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?

SPAG homophobia?

Any serious answers? Or is that actually the best you can do?

It's as serious as you're going to get from me. I could, I suppose, pretend that I think some Christians take their stance on homosexual behaviour from scripture, but that would not be in keeping with thinking that these Christians are using scripture as an excuse for their own prejudices.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #129 on: November 18, 2013, 05:25:54 AM »
It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?

SPAG homophobia?

Any serious answers? Or is that actually the best you can do?

Psalm 127:3?

Basically, to out compete the competition by producing more of his believers.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #130 on: November 18, 2013, 05:26:33 AM »
I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.


And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

Did you have an answer for the question there, champ? I wouldn't burn or torture them either. But I'm interested in what you would do if your children grew up and refused to get a job or contribute in any way. Would you take any action?

As the OP is 'Would You Ever Torture You Children With Fire', I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that we were debating what course of action we would take should our children disobey us, and would that course of action involve torturing said children with fire. So my answer is; 'No. Regardless of how much my children disrespected me, I would not torture them with fire.'

What would I do if my kids refused to get a job? I would try to teach them the value of work, to themselves and their well being, and encourage them to contribute to society. If that failed I'd try to help from afar, attempt to get job offers put their way.
If all that failed I would let the kids make their own mistakes; if that meant living in poverty so be it. I would hope they would learn from it. But I would keep an eye on them and try to ensure opportunities were still sent their way.
Fire and torture, however, would never feature in my plans.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #131 on: November 18, 2013, 05:35:57 AM »
What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine.

Well, I'm confused. It's as cruel as it gets... but not if someone disagrees. In that case, its....what?

Try reading for comprehension. Antidote has said it's fine if someone disagree with him, not that it's suddenly not as cruel as it gets if someone disagrees with him, as if someone disagreeing with him would change his opinion.

Great, but where does that leave us? Cruel or not? Antidote says yes, someone else says no. It has to be one or the other, right? 

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2013, 05:40:09 AM »
What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine.

Well, I'm confused. It's as cruel as it gets... but not if someone disagrees. In that case, its....what?

Try reading for comprehension. Antidote has said it's fine if someone disagree with him, not that it's suddenly not as cruel as it gets if someone disagrees with him, as if someone disagreeing with him would change his opinion.

Great, but where does that leave us? Cruel or not? Antidote says yes, someone else says no. It has to be one or the other, right?

Saying it has to be one or the other is suggesting that there is some objective standard out there. I see no justification for making such a claim.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #133 on: November 18, 2013, 05:42:40 AM »
It is indeed. Can you think of any reasons why Christians believe that it is God's desire still today for sexual relationships to be between a man and woman?

SPAG homophobia?

Any serious answers? Or is that actually the best you can do?

It's as serious as you're going to get from me. I could, I suppose, pretend that I think some Christians take their stance on homosexual behaviour from scripture

Another option is that you could actually seriously consider that they genuinely do


but that would not be in keeping with thinking that these Christians are using scripture as an excuse for their own prejudices.

Noted. Its easier to think the worst of people. I'm guilty of it also.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #134 on: November 18, 2013, 05:48:40 AM »

What would I do if my kids refused to get a job? I would try to teach them the value of work, to themselves and their well being, and encourage them to contribute to society. If that failed I'd try to help from afar, attempt to get job offers put their way.
If all that failed I would let the kids make their own mistakes; if that meant living in poverty so be it. I would hope they would learn from it. But I would keep an eye on them and try to ensure opportunities were still sent their way.
Fire and torture, however, would never feature in my plans.

I would pretty much do the same. There was a reason I wanted that brought out, but buggered if I can remember what it was now. Oh well.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #135 on: November 18, 2013, 05:51:33 AM »
It's as serious as you're going to get from me. I could, I suppose, pretend that I think some Christians take their stance on homosexual behaviour from scripture

Another option is that you could actually seriously consider that they genuinely do

Oh, I've tried that - don't believe them.

Quote

but that would not be in keeping with thinking that these Christians are using scripture as an excuse for their own prejudices.

Noted. Its easier to think the worst of people. I'm guilty of it also.

Hey, I'm all for trying to see the best in anyone. It's these Christians that are supplying the rope, building the gallows, slipping in their necks and kicking away the stool. I'm merely a commentator.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #136 on: November 18, 2013, 05:56:11 AM »
What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine.

Well, I'm confused. It's as cruel as it gets... but not if someone disagrees. In that case, its....what?

Try reading for comprehension. Antidote has said it's fine if someone disagree with him, not that it's suddenly not as cruel as it gets if someone disagrees with him, as if someone disagreeing with him would change his opinion.

Great, but where does that leave us? Cruel or not? Antidote says yes, someone else says no. It has to be one or the other, right?

Saying it has to be one or the other is suggesting that there is some objective standard out there. I see no justification for making such a claim.

Then telling somebody something is cruel is totally meaningless. Why even bother? What messge can it convey, other than you hold an opinion on something?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2013, 05:58:08 AM »

Hey, I'm all for trying to see the best in anyone. It's these Christians that are supplying the rope, building the gallows, slipping in their necks and kicking away the stool. I'm merely a commentator.

Bold mine. Which ones?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #138 on: November 18, 2013, 06:05:16 AM »
Saying it has to be one or the other is suggesting that there is some objective standard out there. I see no justification for making such a claim.

Then telling somebody something is cruel is totally meaningless. Why even bother? What messge can it convey, other than you hold an opinion on something?

Then I wonder how you take meaning from anything anybody ever says, including yourself. Why are any of us even bothering saying anything, because all portrayals are subjective.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #139 on: November 18, 2013, 06:06:52 AM »

Hey, I'm all for trying to see the best in anyone. It's these Christians that are supplying the rope, building the gallows, slipping in their necks and kicking away the stool. I'm merely a commentator.

Bold mine. Which ones?

Follow the chain of posts:

It's as serious as you're going to get from me. I could, I suppose, pretend that I think some Christians take their stance on homosexual behaviour from scripture, but that would not be in keeping with thinking that these Christians are using scripture as an excuse for their own prejudices.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Quesi

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #140 on: November 18, 2013, 06:08:04 AM »
@ Quesi ^^. That's all well and good, but it seems to me you are avoiding the question by refusing to see it as a possibility. Are you (you also NGFM) of the opinion that laziness is always (or very close to always) indicative of depression or another mental health problem? Is it possible that some children are just lazy bastards exploiting their parents love and care?

Sorry to go back so many pages in this thread.  And I'm sorry to stray so far from the OT.  But I did want to address this.

You know, we are all subject to laziness.  I woke up early this morning to work on an important funding proposal with a looming deadline.  But I'm sitting here on the forums instead of working.  So I'm being lazy.

And yes.  Perhaps I am speaking out of the blissful ignorance of my stage of parenthood.  7 year olds are so full of potential.  Perhaps the reality of her life will be nothing like what I imagine.  Maybe nogodsforme's daughter will decide that her calling in life is to be a roadie for One Direction, and my daughter will dedicate her life to blogging about the wisdom of Joel Osteen. 

But "just lazy."  You know.  I've really never met anyone who was "just lazy."  When I was a kid, there was the elderly couple who lived next door.  They had a son in his 30's or 40's who lived there, and who raked their leaves on fall days, and shoveled the snow for them in the winter.  He left his bottles of liquor in the leaf piles and the snow.  Everyone in the neighborhood shook their heads.  Such a nice elderly couple.  So sad their son never made anything of his life.  But there were those liquor bottles.  I suspect they had something to do with the situation.

For a few years, I had a contract to work with welfare moms.  Help them get training.  Job skills.  Get them off welfare. 

It was really hard work.  Everyone seems to know those lazy women who have babies just to get their welfare checks, because they are too lazy to work.  But you know what?  I never met anyone like that.

I met a lot of women with really low self esteem.  Women, young women, who had been beaten down by life.  Women who faced so many distractions, that they had a lot of problems getting to my program every day.  Poverty takes a lot of time out of your day.  Lots of people living in small apartments, with babies screaming and sirens outside and not a lot of restful sleep.  The projects where they lived were really far from convenient mass transit, and it took forever for them to get anywhere.  Even food shopping, healthy food shopping, was a half-a-day project.  They had poor nutrition.  Many had substance abuse histories or current battles.  Most of them lacked the ability to envision themselves living the kind of life I grew up dreaming about.  There were so many obstacles to the smallest of dreams. 

We had to report on their participation in our program.  Failure to participate meant that their welfare checks would be reduced, and they would have to go to a "fair hearing" to have their benefits restored.  They had lots of "fair hearings" and court dates with their children's fathers and court dates with their landlords demanding hot water and small windows of opportunity to travel to Brooklyn to the methadone clinics and no time to buy fruits or vegetables and haul them on a train and two buses back home.  But often, a woman would tell me that she got out of bed, poured herself a cup of coffee, and just never found the strength to get dressed and walk out the door.   If my days were like these women's days, I would probably not have the strength to walk out of the door every day either.  I might just sit and stare, in a semi-catatonic state sometimes, even if I knew the consequences would be fair hearings and court dates and more horrible, horrible days ahead. 

No one wants that kind of a life.  No one WANTS to eat potato chips on the couch in front of Law and Order reruns all day.  Not the privileged middle class 25 year old living in mom and dad's house, never having held a job.  Not the 25 year old mom of three kids, one of whom is starting to go through puberty. 

No one.  There is always some underlying cause.  Depression.  Substance abuse.  Something.  And no authoritarian mandate is going to provide a solution. 

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #141 on: November 18, 2013, 08:21:37 AM »
Here's a good article on the relationship between OT law and Christianity.

http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363

Why does he choose Mark 7:19, to make his case that Jesus overturned food laws, when the fuller explanation is in Matthew, and ends with :
[20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

In both, he starts off, saying that "Ye hypocrites" observe the traditions of man (hand washing), but abuse their parents, which is prohibited by God's law. He doesn't specifically say that you should be able to eat pork.

The gospels have been cleverly edited, to not give away whether any old laws have been overturned by Jesus, and we don't know whether that's because he fears being killed for telling people to ignore certain laws, or whether he is just re-emphasizing the importance of certain Jewish laws. The Jesus in Matthew and Mark, is not a "saviour" Jesus, but a meritocracy Jesus, who talks about least and greatest in heaven, according to your awesomeness. We also don't know if he can blurt out, "I am God, and I am saving you" without being stoned, or whether he specifically says "Why do you call me Good" to warn against those [in Paul's gang] who would call him a saviour.

But if the Jesus in Matthew is a meritocrat, then we can sometimes ignore lesser Jewish laws, because adhering to them doesn't give you many points, so breaking them doesn't cost you many points:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice the "and". If you break lesser laws, "and" teach others to break them, then you get dealt a heavy blow from God. If you just break the laws, but don't tell anybody, you may be OK.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #142 on: November 18, 2013, 08:53:51 AM »
You didn't really address Skeptic's question, did you?
You've got to be kidding with THIS complaint. Go back and read his posts. Let him start actually responding to questions posed to HIM before you consider calling anyone else out on not answering his questions.
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #143 on: November 18, 2013, 09:11:53 AM »
http://www.thejc.com/health/45876/ocd-really-jewish-disease
http://www.jewishsexuality.com/spilling-semen-in-vain
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/480242/jewish/Obsessive-Compulsive.htm

Those two links contain the context, for what the synoptic Jesus is rebuking in Jewish obsession. He's not saying the laws are overturned, he's saying "don't do what's in the above links".

This is lost on Western Christians:  that there is a genuinely weird obsession to rebuke.

However, the irony is that Jesus was wrong. The last link tries to justify the Jewish obsession with hand washing. And it is true. The original Torah laws on washing, were apparently for disease control
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_washing_in_Judaism#Hebrew_Bible
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 09:14:41 AM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #144 on: November 18, 2013, 10:53:12 AM »
I reviewed the exchange, and to be fair I don't think Skeptic originally intended for his use of 'children' to be confined to those teenaged or younger - I think he meant it to refer more widely to offspring of any age. It appears he overlooked G-Roll's attempt to clarify the age bracket.

In any event, I think the point he is trying to make is clear enough: sometimes a parent might be forced, through a childs own actions, to take action that could appear unloving if viewed out of context.
The problem is, what he said was very unclear.  There is a huge difference between what we expect from a young child, or even a teenager, as opposed to someone who's clearly an adult.

It's clear he made no effort to clarify what he meant by children.  This is why I said his questions were misleading.  He's talking about children getting jobs in the one post - which could easily be taken to mean fairly young children; I started delivering a paper route at twelve, for example - and in the next, he's trying to castigate 'atheists' for not kicking adult children (25+) out of the house if they refused to get a job.  This is not the first time he's acted like this.

Also, I submit that giving someone an excessive punishment - for whatever reason - is not merely "unloving", but actively hateful.  For example, let's say that you have the 25-year old slacker who wants to laze about all day.  Threatening to evict them from your house if they don't start trying to find employment, and following up on it if they don't take the threat seriously, may be harsh, but it isn't excessive.  Excessive punishment is more like evicting them from your house, disowning them, cutting off communication, and pretending that you have no child at all, for the rest of their life.  If you ran across someone who had done that, merely because their adult child wouldn't find a job, wouldn't you question whether they actually loved their child at all?  At best, that would be a cold and callous indifference, not any sort of love at all.

Now imagine that they actually locked their adult child in the basement and tortured them for the rest of their life, without any possibility of reprieve, merely because their adult child wouldn't get a job.  I don't think anyone could see that as love - indeed, it would be a pretty blatant and vicious hatred.

Now, compare that to the Christian idea of hell.  The "spiritual abandonment" that many Christians now believe in is like the example of a parent who cuts their child off completely because they won't get a job.  The hellfire and eternal torment that's been a Christian staple for so long is like the example of a parent who tortures their child for the rest of their lives because they won't get a job.  In both cases, the 'punishment' is too excessive to justify for any reason.  Indeed, it's worse than the examples I gave, because of the Christian concept of eternity.

A god who would do either of those may be powerful, but they cannot be described as loving.