Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 12587 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2013, 11:29:04 PM »
According to the Bible they should KILL the unruly child

Indeed.

Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

News flash: We aren't ancient Israelites.
What does that even mean?

What it means, 12M, is that the commandment quoted was a commandment intended specifically for Israelites living in those times. Therefore, to cite it as an example of what the bible teaches parents to do today is incorrect, no matter how useful an exercise that might be for one hoping to argue that the bible is responsible for various modern acts of violence.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2013, 11:29:13 PM »
To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.

That's the point, that's what the post was about, to point out how ridiculous the bible is. Actually read it, cover to cover, especially the Old Testament, it's packed full of stuff like that. One of the primary reasons I don't take it seriously, I only own a bible because my mother bought me one when I was 8 and still going to church.[1]

EDIT:
The bible endorses: includes various instances of
1) Slavery
2) Rape
3) Murder
4) Genocide
5) Incest
6) Patricide
7) Matricide
8 ) Infanticide
etc
The list goes on, and that's JUST the Old Testament.
 1. no I wasn't religious then

I have edited your quote to make it more accurate.

No, you've edited my post to make it fit your interpretation. The bible demands a most of those things, and gives a way out of punishment for the rest, if that is not a form of endorsement then I don't know what is.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2013, 11:31:48 PM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »


No one claimed that, however it is the position of some theists that the Bible is the inerrant word of god, therefore this passage should be taken seriously.

Of course it should be taken seriously. It's no trivial thing. But taking it seriously does not mean it can be applied out of context. Context matters, whether it suits your favourite arguments or not, and pointing out the context of a biblical passage is not an attempt at avoiding anything - it is an attempt at honesty and truth.

To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.
How,because MAN has declared it? God commands it,man has now declared it obsolete,so the word of God can be ignored if it turns out MAN has better judgement?

It has nothing to do with man usurping Gods commands. It has everything to do with determining who a command was intended for.

Can you present a reasoned argument to support the notion that the command in question was intended by God to apply outside of the Israelites living at the time the laws were given?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2013, 11:39:05 PM »
It has nothing to do with man usurping Gods commands. It has everything to do with determining who a command was intended for.

Can you present a reasoned argument to support the notion that the command in question was intended by God to apply outside of the Israelites living at the time the laws were given?

Then we can discard 80% of the bible on that premise alone, as a large portion of the bible targets Israelites specifically. Thank you for giving us yet another way to discard the bible.

We can present a reasoned argument, but by your own admission it's unnecessary.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2013, 11:39:39 PM »
According to the Bible they should KILL the unruly child

Indeed.

Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

News flash: We aren't ancient Israelites.
What does that even mean?

It means that the parts of the bible that don't make sense, are too cruel, or seem stupid  because we have different cultural values--those don't apply to us.  &)

No, it really doesn't. I know you're more than intelligent enough to understand context. Are you sure you give the weird and horrible OT passages honest appraisal with due consideration for textual and historical context?


Why it would ever be okay for the people to kill unruly children, let a rapist pay the woman's father and walk, enslave other ethnic groups, massacre entire cities, etc, is still not clear.

And it may never be entirely clear. However, biblical scholars offer some very reasoned explanations of all these difficult passages. Would you like me to find some relevant links?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2013, 11:43:20 PM »

Why it would ever be okay for the people to kill unruly children, let a rapist pay the woman's father and walk, enslave other ethnic groups, massacre entire cities, etc, is still not clear.

And it may never be entirely clear. However, biblical scholars offer some very reasoned explanations of all these difficult passages. Would you like me to find some relevant links?

This only shows how weak your position really is, because all of those "biblical scholars" provide some very poor reasoning, and are usually based on a false premise which can be discarded out of hand.

Please provide links, I'd love to read them to make sure I'm correct, if I'm not, I'll retract what I've just said in this post.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2013, 11:46:18 PM »
According to the Bible they should KILL the unruly child

Indeed.

Deuteronomy 21: 18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

News flash: We aren't ancient Israelites.
What does that even mean?

What it means, 12M, is that the commandment quoted was a commandment intended specifically for Israelites living in those times. Therefore, to cite it as an example of what the bible teaches parents to do today is incorrect, no matter how useful an exercise that might be for one hoping to argue that the bible is responsible for various modern acts of violence.
So God inspired writings and the values therein can be abandoned as time passes,or are abandoned by CIVILIZED people? Which one is it? This has to be one of your least thought out responses. You say writings and the RULES in the Bible no longer apply to modern humanity but to a small number of what can now be considered cave people they were written "for"?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 11:53:35 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2013, 11:52:31 PM »


No one claimed that, however it is the position of some theists that the Bible is the inerrant word of god, therefore this passage should be taken seriously.

Of course it should be taken seriously. It's no trivial thing. But taking it seriously does not mean it can be applied out of context. Context matters, whether it suits your favourite arguments or not, and pointing out the context of a biblical passage is not an attempt at avoiding anything - it is an attempt at honesty and truth.

To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.
How,because MAN has declared it? God commands it,man has now declared it obsolete,so the word of God can be ignored if it turns out MAN has better judgement?

It has nothing to do with man usurping Gods commands. It has everything to do with determining who a command was intended for.

Can you present a reasoned argument to support the notion that the command in question was intended by God to apply outside of the Israelites living at the time the laws were given?
The WORD of God like God himself is unchanging,otherwise you could abandon the OT and the NT (which you HAVE)and the rules held within them. The opinion you HAVE is just that,because the rules can't be applied to a civil society. GOD has NOT changed his rule YOU have. Where is the THIRD testament telling you the rules no longer apply....The book of Mormon?

 A rule from God is a rule no matter who it was written for,like I said God did not change you did.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2013, 11:53:45 PM »
And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?



I agree with others that this is kind of beside the point. I believe it makes a valid point, as it demonstrates that it is possible to do everything within reason to help somebody and still have them throw it back in your face time after time.

I believe it makes a valid point, as it demonstrates that it is possible to do everything within reason to help somebody and still have them throw it back in your face time after time.
 


The Bible god isn't punishing people for being kind of lazy.  He/it is punishing people who simply don't believe in him/it.  The unbeliever can be a very upstanding, moral, honest, hardworking, productive person but (according to the Bible) would still burn in a lake of fire.

You have this wrong. Those who end up eternally separated from God (Spiritual death - Hell) are not there for not believing in God. They are there because they rejected the only possible way to be made right with God - Jesus.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2013, 11:56:15 PM »
As men left the Stone Age god to become more progressive the rule of God did not progress. The rules of the Stone Age god one by one were abandoned. Men did not leave their god behind as they progressed as humanity, just his barbaric and vengeful rules.

 As a society progressed out of the Stone Age your god MM did not. His rules did not change just your view of them. The fact they were barbaric (the rules) and nonsensical you were forced to abandon them MM. You don't have to justify why you abandon the rules but the fact they were so barbaric in the first place

I flatly reject this. The role of Jesus in fulfilling the law is quite clear to me, even if it isn't to you.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2013, 11:56:37 PM »
The Jesus card again.... does this mean God failed humanity the first few times he killed them off? or was it a convenient way to include ALL?
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2013, 11:57:56 PM »
As men left the Stone Age god to become more progressive the rule of God did not progress. The rules of the Stone Age god one by one were abandoned. Men did not leave their god behind as they progressed as humanity, just his barbaric and vengeful rules.

 As a society progressed out of the Stone Age your god MM did not. His rules did not change just your view of them. The fact they were barbaric (the rules) and nonsensical you were forced to abandon them MM. You don't have to justify why you abandon the rules but the fact they were so barbaric in the first place

I flatly reject this. The role of Jesus in fulfilling the law is quite clear to me, even if it isn't to you.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

Is this what you're referring to? If so, it's not exactly backing up your claims.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2013, 11:58:00 PM »
To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.

How so?

I think you'll find I have covered this in replies to other in this thraed. If you would like me to address it further, please let me know.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2013, 11:59:28 PM »
As men left the Stone Age god to become more progressive the rule of God did not progress. The rules of the Stone Age god one by one were abandoned. Men did not leave their god behind as they progressed as humanity, just his barbaric and vengeful rules.

 As a society progressed out of the Stone Age your god MM did not. His rules did not change just your view of them. The fact they were barbaric (the rules) and nonsensical you were forced to abandon them MM. You don't have to justify why you abandon the rules but the fact they were so barbaric in the first place

I flatly reject this. The role of Jesus in fulfilling the law is quite clear to me, even if it isn't to you.
Who cares what YOU flatly reject.....Jesus was just a way for early "Christians" to include every other creed race or color in the punishment of "their" god.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2013, 12:03:02 AM »
To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.

How so?

I think you'll find I have covered this in replies to other in this thraed. If you would like me to address it further, please let me know.

When? I've looked through your posts but haven't found where you actually addressed this.
Please post a link.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2013, 12:07:48 AM »
So what rules still apply and what rules are no longer valid? any?  A book written for stone people,like the God it was written about,was abandoned LONG ago,you sir are living proof MM. Any rule you feel no longer applies,magically no longer applies,and any rule you feel still applies,does. SPAG at its finest.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2013, 12:08:31 AM »
To use this passage as some sort of argument that modern day parents should stone their disobedient children is intellectually retarded in the biggest way.

That's the point, that's what the post was about, to point out how ridiculous the bible is. Actually read it, cover to cover, especially the Old Testament, it's packed full of stuff like that. One of the primary reasons I don't take it seriously, I only own a bible because my mother bought me one when I was 8 and still going to church.[1]

EDIT:
The bible endorses: includes various instances of
1) Slavery
2) Rape
3) Murder
4) Genocide
5) Incest
6) Patricide
7) Matricide
8 ) Infanticide
etc
The list goes on, and that's JUST the Old Testament.
 1. no I wasn't religious then

I have edited your quote to make it more accurate.

No, you've edited my post to make it fit your interpretation. The bible demands a most of those things, and gives a way out of punishment for the rest, if that is not a form of endorsement then I don't know what is.

Bold mine. Demands them of who? If you think those things are demanded of anybody other than the original recipients of the laws, please explain to me why. Make a case for it.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2013, 12:09:59 AM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.

What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2013, 12:13:04 AM »
MM why does Christianity apply to everybody and not just followers of the Christian God? You say so? Saying rules God set out only apply to the people it was written for,then Christians are the only ones it applies to now right?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2013, 12:14:47 AM »
It has nothing to do with man usurping Gods commands. It has everything to do with determining who a command was intended for.

Can you present a reasoned argument to support the notion that the command in question was intended by God to apply outside of the Israelites living at the time the laws were given?

Then we can discard 80% of the bible on that premise alone, as a large portion of the bible targets Israelites specifically. Thank you for giving us yet another way to discard the bible.

We can present a reasoned argument, but by your own admission it's unnecessary.

You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2013, 12:14:54 AM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.

What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
I can commit any crime I please as long as I come around to loving Jesus in the end,and I accept him.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2013, 12:15:53 AM »

I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.

Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is as cruel as it gets. THAT is the defense.

What if someome disagreed with you? What do you have to defend your position, other than your opinion? That was the crux of my question. You seem to have overlooked it.
If they disagreed with me, that's fine. It just goes to show that it's inherently subjective, and any claims to objective morality is doomed to fail. Thus an infinite punishment for a finite crime is not only cruel, but pointless.

EDIT:
Also any claims of objective morality are defeated anyway, by the very loophole provided by biblegod: Jesus.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2013, 12:18:47 AM »
It has nothing to do with man usurping Gods commands. It has everything to do with determining who a command was intended for.

Can you present a reasoned argument to support the notion that the command in question was intended by God to apply outside of the Israelites living at the time the laws were given?

Then we can discard 80% of the bible on that premise alone, as a large portion of the bible targets Israelites specifically. Thank you for giving us yet another way to discard the bible.

We can present a reasoned argument, but by your own admission it's unnecessary.

You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?
Can you back that up with passages? Every culture has lessons about life in stories or writings. They are pretty much clear and not nearly as violent or vulgar as God commands. This fact is the only reason they were not followed after men came out of the stone age.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2013, 12:29:44 AM »
Antidote,Jesus excuses you from infinite punishment for a finite crime. This is why they can disobey the rules God has set out for them or the original people he was God for. Remember when you read the OT this particular god,out of a Pantheon of many gods chose these people. There is more than one god MM just can't admit it.
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2013, 12:31:06 AM »
Antidote,Jesus excuses you from infinite punishment for a finite crime. This is why they can disobey the rules God has set out for them or the original people he was God for. Remember when you read the OT this particular god out of a Pantheon of gods chose these people. There is more than one god MM just can't admit it.
True, there is that. Thanks for reminding me.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2013, 12:31:56 AM »
You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?

The OT laws are not to be followed anymore.  I see.  Does that include the ten commandments?  They are OT laws as well.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2013, 12:33:38 AM »
You seem to have a very basic understanding of the bible. The OT laws are not intended to be followed any more, this is true. That does not mean it is possible to 'discard them', as in to ignore their existence. Their existence serves a very important purpose. Do you have any ideas on what that purpose might be?

The OT laws are not to be followed anymore.  I see.  Does that include the ten commandments?  They are OT laws as well.
Isn't that passage about "man laying with man as one would lie with a woman" in the OT? Or am I mistaken.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2013, 12:38:10 AM »
Guys,Guys,Guys..... only the Laws from the OT that MM feels apply,actually apply. Not the silly ones like cutting your hair or tattoo's or killing gays and unruly teens. The rest of the rules,they use the get out of hell free card that Jesus gave them

 How about it MM do all the rules of the OT only apply to the original people God intended it for? As you stated in an above post?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 12:40:00 AM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)