Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 17034 times)

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Offline median

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This question is for Christians. Would you ever (for any reason at all) torture your children with fire in the basement? Would you ever burn their skin from head to toe while listening to their screams of horror? Is there any reason, whatsoever, that you think this action would be justified for you to perform on your own children? Just picture yourself performing these actions in your mind. Please answer honestly.

[Note: If you do not have children please assume for this discussion that you do]

Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO.

Once you have answered this, then please answer why or why not.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 12:07:54 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.


So then you admit that God's 'nature' is not the standard of morality?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 12:45:29 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.


How can finite creatures warrant infinite punishment?

It would take a special kind of cruelty and pettiness to deliver infinite punishment.  Yet somehow, this is the action of an 'all-loving' god.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2013, 01:07:51 PM »

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.


That makes as much sense as 'Since god is purple, any sin against him deserves purple punishment'.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2013, 01:09:58 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.

Problems -

According to William Lane Craig, a guy who ought ot know about these things, infinties cannot exist. Thus, the start of your explanation fils to work.

I understood, though, that your god was also keen to forgive. Now let's ask you a similar question - suppoosing your children has manged to burn down your house, would you fogive them? Would you do it without asking for apologies, deprivation of nice things or trips out?

Jesus managed to forgive sins on the spot so, appearing before god a person could be cleansed by god of all sins and forgiven - if god wanted to - but does he? Why would he want a fiery place to torture people for ever for say - committing adultery, being gay (as god made the person of course) and so on?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2013, 01:11:04 PM »

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.


That makes as much sense as 'Since god is purple, any sin against him deserves purple punishment'.

Great; now you've given him two arguments.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »
How can finite creatures warrant infinite punishment?

It would take a special kind of cruelty and pettiness to deliver infinite punishment.  Yet somehow, this is the action of an 'all-loving' god.

Please tell us what you mean by "love" and how you define it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2013, 01:23:06 PM »

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.


That makes as much sense as 'Since god is purple, any sin against him deserves purple punishment'.

Great; now you've given him two arguments.

Hmm,...'Since god is infinitely merciful and just, any sin against him deserves an infinitely merciful and just punishment'. How's that?!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2013, 01:26:31 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.

Brought to you by the cult that would destroy the world and everyone in it to bring their benevolent god back.

The benevolent god that has destroyed the world once before.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 01:34:52 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.

Brought to you by the cult that would destroy the world and everyone in it to bring their benevolent god back.

The benevolent god that has destroyed the world once before.

Did you know that some parents kick their children out of the house if they refuse to listen to them?

"My house, my rules. If you don't like it, then leave."
Is the parent evil and wrong?
Would you prefer the parent spoil the children and let them do anything they want?

Suppose a parent has a son who refuses to get a job.
Should the parents kick the son out or let him keep living there mooching off the parents?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 01:39:55 PM »
I hear this from Christians a lot during these sort of debates; "But a parent can allow their child to make mistakes.." and "But a parent is allowed to punish their child."

Punish - yes. Torture for eternity - no.

The morals of Christians are so twisted by this poisonous religion that they are unable to see the difference between the two.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 01:45:02 PM »
My house, my rules. If you don't like it, then leave."
Is the parent evil and wrong?
Yes.

Quote
Would you prefer the parent spoil the children and let them do anything they want?
As opposed to putting them on the street with nothing? Yes.

Quote
Suppose a parent has a son who refuses to get a job.
Should the parents kick the son out or let him keep living there mooching off the parents?
Are we talking about a grown adult or a teen?

And in what way is your god not throwing his children or creation not just out of the house, but into eternal damnation? I fully understand the actual children of your god are Christian and your god could care less about me because I am not Christian. Yet in your opinion was I created by your god and am I not one of his children? Just that one ungrateful kid that he will burn in the basement.... forever.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »
I get the distinct feeling that this is yet another subject skeptic really hasn't given much thought to.  How many is this now?  I've lost count.

Leaving aside the sophistry about "transgressing against infinity deserves an infinite punishment", the simple fact of the matter is that a finite being, such as a human, cannot receive an infinite punishment.  Christians try to get around this by claiming that the soul is eternal, but they have no proof whatsoever of this.  They haven't even proven that there is such a thing as the soul, even though if it were distinct from the human body, there'd be something we could detect.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 02:05:07 PM »
My house, my rules. If you don't like it, then leave."
Is the parent evil and wrong?
Yes.

Quote
Would you prefer the parent spoil the children and let them do anything they want?
As opposed to putting them on the street with nothing? Yes.

Quote
Suppose a parent has a son who refuses to get a job.
Should the parents kick the son out or let him keep living there mooching off the parents?
Are we talking about a grown adult or a teen?

And in what way is your god not throwing his children or creation not just out of the house, but into eternal damnation? I fully understand the actual children of your god are Christian and your god could care less about me because I am not Christian. Yet in your opinion was I created by your god and am I not one of his children? Just that one ungrateful kid that he will burn in the basement.... forever.

This is a subject that I am flabbergasted by.

You atheists would seriously just let your grown children stay in the house if they refused to get a job?

Where's the incentive for them to work then? lol

Telling your children, "I know you are 25 years old now, but since you are refusing to get a job, that's fine. I would never kick you out. You're too important to me." This hypothetical parent has just given his children a free license to mooch off of them forever.

How is that good?

 Imagine him telling his friends, "My dad isn't making me work and he's not kicking me out! I have such an awesome life!"

Compare that to a parent who says, "if you don't have a job by the time you're 25, you're out of here." This child would shape up real quick!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 02:07:19 PM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
Telling your children, "I know you are 25 years old now...

I am "Flabbergasted" by your dishonesty.

I am not even going to bother reading the rest of your post because I see no point in having a conversation with a dishonest person.
It’s a pitty because I was curious as to what your response would be. Imagine my disappointment...

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2013, 02:25:13 PM »
Are we talking about a grown adult or a teen?

In case you can't figure out why you are dishonest I even asked if we are talking about children (you said the word children) or grown adults. But no you want to label a 25 year old as a child?

done.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2013, 03:14:39 PM »
According to this eternal punishment deal, we all deserve it from the time we exit the womb. Nobody is innocent, see, because we inherit our sin nature from our ancestors through the magic of genetics that does not really exist because there was no evolution.

So you could be 5 or 25 and the loving parent is still justified in kicking you to the curb or burning you in the basement. Nice.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2013, 03:15:15 PM »
Please tell us what you mean by "love" and how you define it.

It is christians that claims god is "all-loving".

It is I that want to know what is meant by "love" and how they're defining it.  I'm pretty sure that most definition of love do not include "will punish for eternity".  Yet, they allow for an "all-loving" god to do just that.  Nonsense.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2013, 05:20:27 PM »

Did you know that some parents kick their children out of the house if they refuse to listen to them?

"My house, my rules. If you don't like it, then leave."
Is the parent evil and wrong?
Would you prefer the parent spoil the children and let them do anything they want?

Suppose a parent has a son who refuses to get a job.
Should the parents kick the son out or let him keep living there mooching off the parents?

False Analogy there.

Suppose a parent has a son, who refuses to obey or get a job. Should the parents lock him in the basement and torture him with gasoline and fire?? You won't get around this. See, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It works both ways. Either the "my house my rules" goes (and then its A-OK for the parents to torture the child with gasoline and fire) or it is not OK. Which is it?

Can you stop this hypocrisy and get honest?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 05:22:31 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2013, 05:30:02 PM »
This is a subject that I am flabbergasted by.

You atheists would seriously just let your grown children stay in the house if they refused to get a job?

Where's the incentive for them to work then? lol

Telling your children, "I know you are 25 years old now, but since you are refusing to get a job, that's fine. I would never kick you out. You're too important to me." This hypothetical parent has just given his children a free license to mooch off of them forever.

How is that good?

Imagine him telling his friends, "My dad isn't making me work and he's not kicking me out! I have such an awesome life!"

Compare that to a parent who says, "if you don't have a job by the time you're 25, you're out of here." This child would shape up real quick!

Do not even attempt for one second to talk to us about hypocrisy - since your position is filled with it (both intellectually and morally). When you attempt to apply different standards of evidence (when it suits your view), and attempt irrational arguments in an attempt to avoid refutation (only a second later trying to point out fallacies in other people's arguments), the hypocrisy is all yours.

Now again, regarding my initial response to you above, please respond.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2013, 06:13:18 PM »
This is a subject that I am flabbergasted by.

You atheists would seriously just let your grown children stay in the house if they refused to get a job?

Where's the incentive for them to work then? lol

Telling your children, "I know you are 25 years old now, but since you are refusing to get a job, that's fine. I would never kick you out. You're too important to me." This hypothetical parent has just given his children a free license to mooch off of them forever.

How is that good?

 Imagine him telling his friends, "My dad isn't making me work and he's not kicking me out! I have such an awesome life!"

Compare that to a parent who says, "if you don't have a job by the time you're 25, you're out of here." This child would shape up real quick!

Golly.  You know, my atheist parents never kicked me out.  And there are a few reasons for that.

First of all, they loved me and respected me, and my well-being was paramount to them.

Secondly, they had instilled in me, from early childhood, a love of learning, and a love of accomplishment.  I grew up watching them enjoying their challenging careers, and I fantasized about the rewarding career I would have one day.  And then I pursued education and opportunities that led me to that rewarding career.  They also fulfilled my financial "needs" as a teenager.  But I always earned my fun money, working in the local mall.  And I always understood that my personal budget would some day include not only fun stuff, but my basic needs. 

And thirdly, I finished my undergrad in a different era.  I got a job that I loved within a couple of months of graduation.  And before that, I did some random jobs, and a little freelance journalism.  It was a sort of scary time.  For months, I didn't earn enough money to pay my basic bills, even though they were modest.  My parents helped me out a bit.  But I found a good job fairly quickly.

And years later, when I returned from three years of living and working with Central American refugees living in Mexico, I arrived in the US broke.  I moved in with mom and dad, and was lucky enough to get a job that paid fairly well.  Saved up, and started grad school.  And within a couple of years, the job that had started out as a part time gig while I was in grad school, turned into an opportunity for me to create and build a program for immigrants and refugees here in NYC.  And I'm still there. 

Today's young people graduate in a very different work environment.  Not many people graduate and find a job that will pay their bills within a couple of months.  A lot of young people graduate from college, and have no choice but to return to their parents' homes.

I hope my daughter comes of age in a different economy.  She is bright and driven, and has many innate skills.  I hope she gets a fabulous education, and I hope that she is able to settle into a career that she finds rewarding. 

But as an atheist mom, second generation, I hope to inspire my daughter to strive and accomplish.  I imagine her as an astrophysicist, but she could go into biology as well.  Or engineering.  Right now, at age 7, she says she wants to be an entomologist.  Or a chess teacher.  She loves her chess teacher. She has a strong scientific mind, but also a very artistic, creative mind.  I don't think that she will go into the human services, like I did.  I make sure she knows about the lives of the women she knows.  The architects and the lawyers and the waitresses and the professors and the data entry clerks and the retail employees.  What kinds of skills, education, personality, makes someone successful in their work?  Who loves their jobs?  Who is proud of their accomplishments?   Who is satisfied?  Who is frustrated?  And why?   


If I do my job as a parent well, I will not every have to "make her work."  I hope to inspire her to work.  As my parents inspired me.  To contribute to society. To create something.  To discover something.  To make a difference.  I want her to make a good living.  And I hope that she will never be greedy.  That she will never feel entitled.  That she will understand that none of us live in a silo, and that everything we do impacts on the world around us.  That she will take pride in her accomplishments, and that she will treat everyone around her with respect.   

I hope she pursues a career that she loves.  But if she decides to work as a night clerk at a parking garage so that she can use her free time to paint pictures of wild ducks, I will be thrilled that she is pursing her love of duck painting, and that she has created a life for herself in which that is possible.  I love her.  And I want her to be happy.   

But if she finds herself trying to enter a job market like the one that young people are facing today, and if she is struggling, then she is welcome in my home as long into adulthood as she needs to be here. 

That is just a small portrait of my atheist values.  Second generation atheist values. 


 

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2013, 06:46:44 PM »
I don't think anyone here besides skeptic assumed that atheists would let their children live with them forever.  I wish I could say I was surprised by his strawman, but I know how he works now.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2013, 06:53:47 PM »
I don't think anyone here besides skeptic assumed that atheists would let their children live with them forever.  I wish I could say I was surprised by his strawman, but I know how he works now.

I actually think it's hilarious that he attempts to use this example b/c many families throughout history have lived with each other (i.e. - on the same land) their whole lives and saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. Yet, his argument is a complete red-herring as well since we are talking about whether torture is moral, and what is the 'ultimate standard' of what is considered moral. Clearly septic didn't want to answer my first response to him.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 06:54:08 PM »
^^^Exactly. He moves the goalposts so fast, you can hear the sonic boom.   

In most cultures, many young people never "move out" because that would be seen as abandoning the family. They are needed at home, whether they are earning money or not, because there are other people to look after. It is such a strangely US Puritan idea that people are basically lazy sinners who have to be threatened with homelessness and starvation or else they will do nothing with their lives.

Most of the US homeless kids I have known were sexually abused, severely depressed, and/or gay, not the stereotypical lazy bums. Almost all were thrown out by parents who saw themselves as upstanding, loving Christians.  The majority of the kids eventually got their lives together, but it was not pretty. And it cost society many thousands of dollars in taxes to try to fix the mess those upstanding Christians created by abusing and then abandoning their children. Some never got on their feet.[1]
 
If a 25 year old is unemployed, not in school and not at least helping out around the house, I would suspect substance abuse or depression, or both. Kicking them out into the street only hands the problem off onto society, ie the police and social services. It may come to that eventually, but I would not say that throwing a disobedient kid out is the best response of a "loving parent".

But that is what god did to Adam and Eve, so what do I know?
 1. I am thinking of one young man who tried very hard to overcome child abuse and abandonment. After living on the streets from age 14 on, and shoplifting to survive, he managed to get his GED and find work. But he is destroying himself with alcohol, even as we speak.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2013, 07:30:17 PM »


Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO.

No.


Once you have answered this, then please answer why or why not.

Because that would be horrible. I don't want to do anything horrible to my children.

Also, very few Australian houses have basements.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2013, 07:44:02 PM »



If I do my job as a parent well, I will not every have to "make her work."  I hope to inspire her to work.  As my parents inspired me.  To contribute to society. To create something.  To discover something.  To make a difference.  I want her to make a good living.  And I hope that she will never be greedy.  That she will never feel entitled.  That she will understand that none of us live in a silo, and that everything we do impacts on the world around us.  That she will take pride in her accomplishments, and that she will treat everyone around her with respect.   

 

I'm sure the vast majority of parents want that. And usually they can achieve that, as parents. However, somethimes the best parents can have children that for whattever reason simply refuse to listen or learn, and insist on being selfish.

You didn't really address Skeptic's question, did you? You essentially dismissed the perfectly legitimate scenario he raised and chose to instead discuss your own experiences and hopes. Whilst commendable, they are not relevant to the question.

How would you react, as a parent, to a child that insisted on playing no useful part in society and was determined to live in comfort through your efforts only? Would you allow it? Or would there be an ultimatum of sorts, at some point?


The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2013, 07:50:41 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.
Not with the "get out of Hell" Jesus card. You can be as evil as you wish as long as in your final act you accept Jesus into your heart,heaven baby
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2013, 07:53:18 PM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

Since humans are not infinite, sins against us don't merit infinite punishment.

This is Christianity 101, median.

Brought to you by the cult that would destroy the world and everyone in it to bring their benevolent god back.

The benevolent god that has destroyed the world once before.

Did you know that some parents kick their children out of the house if they refuse to listen to them?

"My house, my rules. If you don't like it, then leave."
Is the parent evil and wrong?
Would you prefer the parent spoil the children and let them do anything they want?

Suppose a parent has a son who refuses to get a job.
Should the parents kick the son out or let him keep living there mooching off the parents?
According to the Bible they should KILL the unruly child
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)