Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 18185 times)

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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #174 on: November 19, 2013, 11:26:49 AM »
I'm not arguing whether the comparison the OP made was valid or not, I was just trying to assist A&E's comprehension of the reasoning behind the question. His answer gave the distinct impression that he did not understand it.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #175 on: November 19, 2013, 11:30:27 AM »
As a person who values democracy and human rights, it makes me sick to hear all the excuses for a powerful person torturing a far less powerful person. For any reason. Especially the throwing up the hands as if torture is no big deal. Maybe the Bush Administration did even more damage than we thought--Guantanamo prison and Abu Gharaib as just a little taste of god's heaven on earth.

"Oh you silly billy atheists! Would you let your kids get away with being disobedient? Or would you spoil and reward them? I'll bet you would let terror suspects just walk away, too, instead of electrocuting them in the genitals. What else could god do with his disobedient, stubborn children but throw everyone in the flaming pit of eternal hellfire?"

Uhhhh. Anything? Use your imagination. He's god, so he could do anything besides that...if he  can't do anything but torture, he's a pretty sick excuse for a god. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #176 on: November 19, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »
"Would You Ever Torture Your Family Dog With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO?"

I can see us being like dogs to Yahweh.  Simple, dumb creatures, with no hope of ever really understanding what he wants, but hopefully capable of some simple tricks and obedience.  Putting the dog in the place of the child emphasises the gulf in understanding that (we are told) exists between Yahweh and man.
Dog or child, love is love.
What a supposedly loving god is happy to do to people for an eternity is not love in any way shape or form (unless god simply loves inflicting pain, sado god!)
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #177 on: November 19, 2013, 01:17:03 PM »
I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.


And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

Did you have an answer for the question there, champ? I wouldn't burn or torture them either. But I'm interested in what you would do if your children grew up and refused to get a job or contribute in any way. Would you take any action?

Though not toward me, if it was my child and they wished to be a bum, that'd be their choice. Whether I liked it, or not, is irrelevant. It's their life to do with as they wish. I would still love and care about them, and help them if they asked for help, but if that's the path they wish to travel on, who am I to tell them different?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Boots

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #178 on: November 19, 2013, 01:41:49 PM »
I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.


And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

Did you have an answer for the question there, champ? I wouldn't burn or torture them either. But I'm interested in what you would do if your children grew up and refused to get a job or contribute in any way. Would you take any action?

Magicmiles, while your question is definitely an interesting topic that deserves discussion, it is off the OP and continuing would, IMHO, derail this thread.  I humbly suggest you start a new thread on parenting techniques of atheists vs. theists or something--but that's not what the OP is about.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #179 on: November 19, 2013, 04:56:07 PM »
I've had to struggle most of my life, everything I have I've had to work hard to earn. Right now I'm unemployed in a bad job market, and working on getting back into school. A large portion of what I know I've had to struggle through and learn myself.


And how do you think you'd deal with children who laughed in the face of your hard work and effort, refused to follow your example and showed a willingness to have you support them completely for as long as you were willing?

For goodness sake; I despair at the social ineptitude of Christians. If my children laughed in my face I WOULDN'T BURN AND TORTURE THEM IN AGONY FOR ETERNITY. I WOULDN'T BURN OR TORTURE THEM AT ALL. Is this idea really so hard for Christians to understand?? Is your moral compass so corrupted by the poison of your religion that you think a suitable punishment for lack of respect is eternal torture?????

It is quite obvious that our morals do not come from this god, even if he did exist.

Did you have an answer for the question there, champ? I wouldn't burn or torture them either. But I'm interested in what you would do if your children grew up and refused to get a job or contribute in any way. Would you take any action?

Magicmiles, while your question is definitely an interesting topic that deserves discussion, it is off the OP and continuing would, IMHO, derail this thread.  I humbly suggest you start a new thread on parenting techniques of atheists vs. theists or something--but that's not what the OP is about.

It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

There are a few specific posts in this thread I hope to address further, but its a big time committment and my work is pretty bad currently.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #180 on: November 19, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »
It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

The fact that you can reconcile this is disgusting, but it's not surprising considering your role model.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #181 on: November 19, 2013, 08:21:31 PM »
It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

I can only infer that you'd then demonstrate that the action of eternal damnation in a pit of fire can seem *less* harsh by considering factors we have not.  I'd loooooove to hear those.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #182 on: November 19, 2013, 08:31:50 PM »
It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

I can only infer that you'd then demonstrate that the action of eternal damnation in a pit of fire can seem *less* harsh by considering factors we have not.  I'd loooooove to hear those.

Well, the first thing we'd need to examine is whether hellfire is literal. Not that it probably changes a huge amount.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #183 on: November 19, 2013, 08:34:56 PM »
It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

I can only infer that you'd then demonstrate that the action of eternal damnation in a pit of fire can seem *less* harsh by considering factors we have not.  I'd loooooove to hear those.

Well, the first thing we'd need to examine is whether hellfire is literal. Not that it probably changes a huge amount.

Even if it wasn't literal, the fact that it's treated as such is the problem. And you can't say that "then they aren't christian if they believe that" That's a no true scottsman.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2013, 08:37:16 PM »
It was related to the general theme of the OP in that I was intending to demonstrate that an action can sometimes seem harsh when viewed without consideration of all factors.

I can only infer that you'd then demonstrate that the action of eternal damnation in a pit of fire can seem *less* harsh by considering factors we have not.  I'd loooooove to hear those.

Well, the first thing we'd need to examine is whether hellfire is literal. Not that it probably changes a huge amount.

Even if it wasn't literal, the fact that it's treated as such is the problem. And you can't say that "then they aren't christian if they believe that" That's a no true scottsman.

As I said, it changes little. Eternal suffering is eternal suffering, be it physical, spiritual or a mixture of both.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2013, 08:39:15 PM »
Well, the first thing we'd need to examine is whether hellfire is literal. Not that it probably changes a huge amount.

Well, yeah, it doesn't. You are basically saying that your version of God goes against the scruptures. SDA and JW Christians deny that hell exists at all, on the basis of the OT non-existence, and perhaps the fallacy of Luke (a non-witness) including the parable of Lazarus. I'm not sure how they do it, but they manage.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #186 on: November 19, 2013, 08:49:44 PM »
As I said, it changes little. Eternal suffering is eternal suffering, be it physical, spiritual or a mixture of both.
Thanks for getting to the root of my point. The fact that it exists at all, be it literal or metaphorical simply shows what kind of times  the people who wrote the bible were in. We are no longer bound by the same pressures and mysteries they once were, it's time for us to grow up and let go of these myths, and see them for what they really are.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #187 on: November 19, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »
Look at this great statement, on a PoE site

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Seventh-Day%20Adventist/sneaky.htm

This guy, lambasting SDAs for believing all sorts of Satanic shit (inc. no literal hell). He accuses them of believing that Jesus is the angel Micheal, and then says that many don't know they believe that, because: "Many of them are ignorant and don't know what they believe, which is often the case I have found."
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #188 on: November 19, 2013, 09:09:57 PM »
Look at this great statement, on a PoE site

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Seventh-Day%20Adventist/sneaky.htm

This guy, lambasting SDAs for believing all sorts of Satanic shit (inc. no literal hell). He accuses them of believing that Jesus is the angel Micheal, and then says that many don't know they believe that, because: "Many of them are ignorant and don't know what they believe, which is often the case I have found."

I don't even know what to say to that :/
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #189 on: November 20, 2013, 02:06:31 AM »


Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO.

No.


Once you have answered this, then please answer why or why not.

Because that would be horrible. I don't want to do anything horrible to my children.

Also, very few Australian houses have basements.


Is what you call "horrible" immoral?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #190 on: November 20, 2013, 02:09:42 AM »
Is what you call "horrible" immoral?

See, the thing is that it doesn't matter what we think one bit. God makes the rules and we just have to suck it up and deal with it with our heads held high.

Arguing about it saying, "Sounds too cruel to be real!" will get you nowhere in the grand scheme of things. Nobody ever said the truth had to be pretty.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #191 on: November 20, 2013, 02:11:47 AM »


Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO.

No.


Once you have answered this, then please answer why or why not.

Because that would be horrible. I don't want to do anything horrible to my children.

Also, very few Australian houses have basements.


Is what you call "horrible" immoral?

Well I'd call burning my kids to death immoral, certainly. But my understanding of immoral might be different to yours.
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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #192 on: November 20, 2013, 03:34:14 AM »

Well I'd call burning my kids to death immoral, certainly. But my understanding of immoral might be different to yours.

If you claim that this thing 'God' is the standard of your morality then you just admitted that God is immoral b/c he (according to the bible) does just that - tortures his children in fire, forever and ever.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 03:44:46 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #193 on: November 20, 2013, 03:41:22 AM »
You need to fix the quote so I can respond^^
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Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #194 on: November 20, 2013, 03:42:42 AM »
Is what you call "horrible" immoral?

See, the thing is that it doesn't matter what we think one bit. God makes the rules and we just have to suck it up and deal with it with our heads held high.

Arguing about it saying, "Sounds too cruel to be real!" will get you nowhere in the grand scheme of things. Nobody ever said the truth had to be pretty.

It's funny how you can't see how hypocritical your claim here is. It doesn't matter what we think? And yet somehow you "think" that God is good. So you've just contradicted yourself. It matters to you what you think insofar as you've judged this alleged 'God' thing to be "good". Yet you completely contradict yourself by saying "it doesn't matter what we think" when it is clearly shown that your God is immoral by it's own standards.

Read your last sentence again. "Nobody ever said the truth had to be pretty." Exactly. The truth is, your religion is FALSE. It is both irrational (self contradictory) and immoral by it's own standards. And you have sacrificed your rational mind AND your personal dignity all to continue holding onto it in spite of all evidence and reasonable argument to the contrary. It does matter what we think, but your mind has to go there saying, "It doesn't matter what I think" b/c if you actually decided to open your mind (and actually think for yourself) you'd wake up and realize that your religion (just like all the others) is pure bullshit.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 03:45:30 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #195 on: November 20, 2013, 03:48:41 AM »

Well I'd call burning my kids to death immoral, certainly. But my understanding of immoral might be different to yours.

If you claim that this thing 'God' is the standard of your morality then you just admitted that God is immoral b/c he (according to the bible) does just that - tortures his children in fire, forever and ever.

Did you ever have sex with your Mum?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #196 on: November 20, 2013, 04:01:23 AM »
I have to go home, so I'll just make my point in full.

No, you didn't ever have sex with your Mum. At least, I bloody hope not. Because that would be just completely wrong and disgusting. Maybe you could even call it immoral.  It doesn't matter. The point is, your Dad did have sex with your Mum. That, however, does not mean you consider your Dad to be wrong, disgusting and immoral.

Neither does the fact I consider it would be immoral for me to burn my children mean I am calling God immoral for choosing to do so. Your logic fails on this point.

Note that I am not attempting to make any point here whatsoever other than your logic was flawed in saying that I admit/consdier God to be immoral because He may do something I wouldn't do.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline median

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #197 on: November 20, 2013, 04:26:31 AM »
I have to go home, so I'll just make my point in full.

No, you didn't ever have sex with your Mum. At least, I bloody hope not. Because that would be just completely wrong and disgusting. Maybe you could even call it immoral.  It doesn't matter. The point is, your Dad did have sex with your Mum. That, however, does not mean you consider your Dad to be wrong, disgusting and immoral.

Neither does the fact I consider it would be immoral for me to burn my children mean I am calling God immoral for choosing to do so. Your logic fails on this point.

Note that I am not attempting to make any point here whatsoever other than your logic was flawed in saying that I admit/consdier God to be immoral because He may do something I wouldn't do.

The logical flaws are all yours. Is God the standard of morality according to your theology? Is God (or God's 'nature') the standard of what is moral and/or immoral? If so, then you have a direct contradiction. You are hypocritically trying to apply two different standards of morality (one for yourself and one for God) all the while attempting to claim that 'God is love' (when such actions are clearly not loving). Such scripture twisting and word bending is what you have to do in order to hold onto this stuff.

So too, behold your false analogy above (more irrationality). Having sex (be it with a family member or someone else) is NOT doing unnecessary harm to an individual (especially when there is consent). But if your definition of morality is simply to "do whatever the God dictates" (regardless of consequence or circumstance) then I find you wholly immoral (as 'just following orders'). Why do you find it OK to hold this double standard regarding yourself and this alleged God you worship?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #198 on: November 20, 2013, 06:25:46 AM »

I have to go home, so I'll just make my point in full.

No, you didn't ever have sex with your Mum. At least, I bloody hope not. Because that would be just completely wrong and disgusting. Maybe you could even call it immoral.  It doesn't matter. The point is, your Dad did have sex with your Mum. That, however, does not mean you consider your Dad to be wrong, disgusting and immoral.

Neither does the fact I consider it would be immoral for me to burn my children mean I am calling God immoral for choosing to do so. Your logic fails on this point.

Note that I am not attempting to make any point here whatsoever other than your logic was flawed in saying that I admit/consdier God to be immoral because He may do something I wouldn't do.
Is God the standard of morality according to your theology? Is God (or God's 'nature') the standard of what is moral and/or immoral?

Yes


If so, then you have a direct contradiction.


No I don't.


You are hypocritically trying to apply two different standards of morality (one for yourself and one for God)

No I'm not. I believe it would be wrong for me to burn my children. It simply does not logically follow that it would be wrong for God to do so. I could list many examples to demonstrate that an action is wrong by one person but not by another.

Everything else you posted is superfluous to the point I am making, kind of disappointing too given I took the trouble to stress that I sought only to address a specific piece of logic. The actual morality of burning kids is irrelevant to the faulty logic of "X cannot do Y,  therefore Y cannot do Y"
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 06:32:45 AM by magicmiles »
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #199 on: November 20, 2013, 07:36:46 AM »

No I'm not. I believe it would be wrong for me to burn my children. It simply does not logically follow that it would be wrong for God to do so. I could list many examples to demonstrate that an action is wrong by one person but not by another.


While I see you point that God's may have a different point of view for his basis of morality, the scripture that you work from, gives no explanation of why God would desire to punish people in this way, because it's derived from the Jewish religion, which didn't work in terms of an afterlife. The afterlife scenario is just a tack on, and the idea of hell is even worsely thought out. It's just a random nasty threat; perhaps derived from hope that bad people will be punished, later, because God did nothing to them in this life. The religion says nothing about why we would want to go to heaven, either, because it's not even sure what heaven is. It's not sure whether it's a resurrection, or angels, or for eternity, or an aeon.

Since it gives no clue as to what hell could be for, you have to make stuff up, and pretend that you're OK with it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #200 on: November 20, 2013, 08:04:37 AM »
I guess I just out and out can't fathom the mindset which can, on the one hand, hold that the infinite torture of any human (or animal, for that matter) is a horrible thing, but then turn around and somehow claim that it becomes a good thing when it is done by god.

There has to be some sort of huge disconnect in a mind which could manage to hold those two thoughts at the same time without blowing up, it seems. How do you even do it? How do you just turn off the idea of eternal agony as something no loving, or even remotely sane mind could inflict upon a sentient being? How do you manage to shrug it off as fair, just and, by very definition "good" when inflicted by god? How can you go through this thought process without ever coming to the conclusion that there is something less than perfect about this deity? How?

Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #201 on: November 20, 2013, 08:28:37 AM »
Well, the first thing we'd need to examine is whether hellfire is literal.
We can get right on that just as soon as you explain HOW.

Seriously, how do we go about examining if hellfire is literal?

"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #202 on: November 20, 2013, 08:39:21 AM »
I believe it would be wrong for me to burn my children. It simply does not logically follow that it would be wrong for God to do so. I could list many examples to demonstrate that an action is wrong by one person but not by another.

Then what you are saying is that there is no fixed standard of morality - that sometimes it is okay to burn people, sometimes not.  In which case there is no reason at all to accept that any moral standard suggested by your god is in any way "right" - its simply another opinion of what is right and wrong.

In which case, whatever your god decides to do to use cannot universally be described as good - and any punishment he may inflict is not done as a result of any moral imperative, but is done simply because he holds power.....might makes right.

Explain again why such a being is worthy of worship, rather than simple obedience through fear?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?