Author Topic: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?  (Read 17061 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #145 on: November 18, 2013, 11:13:24 AM »
I have news for you, young man:  There is nothing that merits infinite punishment.  Ever.  There are no exceptions to this rule, be one a god or be one a mortal.
Isn't that just your subjective opinion? If one was to disagree, what do you have in your defence of that statement other than you think nothing merits eternal punishment?

Why do I think that infinite punishment is utterly inexcusable?

  • Would I want it to happen to Me?  No.
  • Would I want it to happen to you? No.
  • Would I want it to happen to the worst dictator who ever walked the Earth?  No.
  • Would I want it to happen to My detested ex-spouse, Whatsisname?  No, not even him.
I simply can't think of any situation in which it would be a positive thing.  I'm opposed to the use of pain as punishment, favouring the making of reparations and a rehabilatative approach.  The furthest I'm prepared to go is isolation of dangerous entities from the community.

Or, to put it another way, I simply cannot see the point of infinite punishment.  What is it supposed to accomplish, other than inflicting endless suffering?  It seems vindictive, unnecessary, not in the least bit useful, and completely out of scope for any god trying to market itself as loving and compassionate.  It's also bafflingly primitive for a supposedly wise god, and is more in keeping with something that a mortal ruler would inflict upon its enemies.

Furthermore, it taints the relationship between a god and its followers. How can one truly love such a god with the spectre of "Could it happen to me, too, if I slip up?" looming over one's head for eternity?

Simply put, there are no winners in this situation.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #146 on: November 18, 2013, 11:14:23 AM »
The problem is, what he said was very unclear.  There is a huge difference between what we expect from a young child, or even a teenager, as opposed to someone who's clearly an adult.

It's clear he made no effort to clarify what he meant by children.  This is why I said his questions were misleading.  He's talking about children getting jobs in the one post - which could easily be taken to mean fairly young children; I started delivering a paper route at twelve, for example - and in the next, he's trying to castigate 'atheists' for not kicking adult children (25+) out of the house if they refused to get a job.  This is not the first time he's acted like this.

Also, I submit that giving someone an excessive punishment - for whatever reason - is not merely "unloving", but actively hateful.  For example, let's say that you have the 25-year old slacker who wants to laze about all day.  Threatening to evict them from your house if they don't start trying to find employment, and following up on it if they don't take the threat seriously, may be harsh, but it isn't excessive.  Excessive punishment is more like evicting them from your house, disowning them, cutting off communication, and pretending that you have no child at all, for the rest of their life.  If you ran across someone who had done that, merely because their adult child wouldn't find a job, wouldn't you question whether they actually loved their child at all?  At best, that would be a cold and callous indifference, not any sort of love at all.

Now imagine that they actually locked their adult child in the basement and tortured them for the rest of their life, without any possibility of reprieve, merely because their adult child wouldn't get a job.  I don't think anyone could see that as love - indeed, it would be a pretty blatant and vicious hatred.

Now, compare that to the Christian idea of hell.  The "spiritual abandonment" that many Christians now believe in is like the example of a parent who cuts their child off completely because they won't get a job.  The hellfire and eternal torment that's been a Christian staple for so long is like the example of a parent who tortures their child for the rest of their lives because they won't get a job.  In both cases, the 'punishment' is too excessive to justify for any reason.  Indeed, it's worse than the examples I gave, because of the Christian concept of eternity.

A god who would do either of those may be powerful, but they cannot be described as loving.
Use of the word 'excessive' is unnecessary in your argument.  It involves comparative magnitude, and frankly, that's unnecessary and allows for wiggle-room questions such as 'who are you to judge what excessive is'.

I think it's more clear to simply say that any punishment that, by design, can serve no other purpose than to punish, can be viewed as a non-loving act.  An action that could appear unloving if viewed out of context is all good and well I suppose, but what additional context can be brought to bear to resolve the discrepancy between 'doing this for your own good' and 'eternal torture with no hope, at all, of redemption?

Presumably, the act that appears unloving is supposed to, in the long run, result in bettering the child (or adult-child, or person, or whatever).  The parent who tosses out their adult-child from their home if they don't get a job?  That's one thing.  The parent who tosses out their adult-child and cuts them off from any support forever has just completely washed their hands of that adult-child, effectively saying 'well, I tried to make you better.  I loved you.  I failed.  I am done trying to make you better.  You are on your own'.  That parent may have loved (past tense) their adult-child, but, after washing his/her hands of the adult-child, no longer loves (present tense) him/her.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #147 on: November 18, 2013, 11:38:58 AM »
Christians can't do that, median. Only God can because he is the Creator and Supreme King.

Since God is infinite, any sin against Him deserves infinite punishment.

I get it... If you kill a big man you get 100 years, but if you shoot a small man or a child, you only get,say, 20 years.

Skeptic, when you wrote your answer, did you honestly think that anyone who read it would believe you?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2013, 11:55:35 AM »
This question is for Christians. Would you ever (for any reason at all) torture your children with fire in the basement? Would you ever burn their skin from head to toe while listening to their screams of horror? Is there any reason, whatsoever, that you think this action would be justified for you to perform on your own children? Just picture yourself performing these actions in your mind. Please answer honestly.

This scenario is not exactly a fair setup IMO. The first problem I see is comparing the God/Mankind relationship to that of a parent child when in actuality it would be more in line with a programer/Sims model where the programmer creates a reality for his creations that he is not subject to and cannot enter only manipulate.

In the course of his programming the arcitect creates villain whom he endows with special abilities that can be used to test and antagonize the Sims to help the designer test his hypothesis as it pertains to what Sims would react as he desired and what Sims would "sin" and miss the mark of his desired programming.

As the program simulation develops, it appears that the antagonist with enhanced abilities developed the desire to become the 'Lord' of the simulated world and have the Sims submit to and revere him. This development angered the programmer who became jealous to the point that he designed a punishment for the antagionist that he'd also subject the Sims that "sinned" and did not revert to the goal of the programming. To help his Sims avoid this punishment the programmer made an avatar of himself that he injected into the simulation to combat the influence of the antagonist and to set up as the true Lord. The Sims that followed the influence of the avatar and bowed to his lordship would be given a reward and the continuation of existence under his benevolent reign while the antagonist and the Sims that did not submit the the avatar's rulership would be punished with a tortorous existence that would either lead to their ultimate demise causing them to be vanquished from the simulation or would be tortured within the simulation for the simulation's duration.

All this said, hopefully the Christian answers will be no, no, and nothing because doing so would be immoral.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2013, 12:28:08 PM »
OK, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job. Would you give your son money every week? Or not give him any money?

if you give your son money every week, aren't you then enabling him to not get a job because he's getting free money? If you don't give the son any money but still refuse to kick him out, then your son is just going to be watching tv all day long and possibly surfing the internet. Then what is going to happen to your son when you die? How would he make a living? Wouldn't you be at all worried about your son's future?

The thing is, I had friends on both sides of the spectrum when I was 18-22ish. I had one friend who smoked pot and drank beer all day and didn't have a job because his dad gave him money. His dad said to him one day when I was over his house, "I don't care what you do with your life. I'm gonna be dead one day and you're gonna be on your own and it's gonna be your problem. I hope you're ready for that day."

On the flipside, I had another friend who was 23, and his father kicked him out because he wasn't doing anything at all. He slept on people's couches for 3 months going house to house and then he eventually found a job after 3 months and found a roommate and was able to live somewhere.  He said, "I hated my dad when he kicked me out but I now understand why he did it. I had to grow up." Kept in touch with him for 3 years and when he was 26, we lost touch because I moved cross country. I have no idea what happened to him.

Which parent would you say is the more loving one?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2013, 12:41:49 PM »
I know I am late to this discussion so my comment is directed at the OP:

I recently watched a German film called "Das weiße Band (2009)[1]", and it took place a year or so before WWI. There were two interconnecting scenes where a father (who was also a pastor or priest) was telling a story (a huge lie) to his son about how masturbation causes death. Frightening his son, horribly to tears, how if he kept masturbating he'd end up dead. At the same time he was telling his son this, he asked his son not to lie to him while he obviously was lying to him. He could have said that the god of the Bible would send you to hell if he kept masturbating (keeping with the mythos of Christianity) instead he chose to lie and tell him a story about another boy the year previous who died of masturbation. I thought it hypocritical. In the connecting scene you see the same boy tied down to his bed to prevent him from masturbating.

To me this is torture. The same basic scenario of the OP. The "father" obviously loves his son, all his children but he punishes them not in a way that teaches them to learn from their mistake (if it is a mistake in the first place), or even explains the sexual emotions (physical, or otherwise) he's going through at his age but punishes him for what comes natural for all young boys, including himself at a young age.

This is is my viewpoint of Biblegod: tells you what to do, or not to do and instead of teaching you to do better when you fail instead tortures you until you do it its way. Which, in a way does "teach" the person something: don't do things my way, I will torture you until you do.

Not really a lesson to learn. It's barbaric and cruel. That's Biblegod  for you. It loves you, especially when it tortures you.

-Nam
 1. English title: The White Ribbon

Whilst I disagree with this, and most of your points of view generally, I have noticed a bit of a change in your posting style of late. A bit more mature-minded and considered.

Wrong. I speak the same today as I have always spoken.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2013, 12:42:31 PM »
 >:(
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 01:07:17 PM by Truth OT »

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2013, 12:57:31 PM »
Why do you keep parroting this scenario? You do realize that the whole parent kicking out a lazy child is irrelavant to the premise and questions posed by the OP don't you?

The point is that just because you kick your child out, this does not mean you love them any less. In fact, if you kept your son home while never pushing him to get a job, people will tell you that you are not a loving parent. You are spoiling them.

Is spoiling someone considered to be loving?

Imagine you told your adult son to run some errands for you while you were at work. You come home from work at night and find the house covered in beer cans and pizza boxes and your son says, "Sorry, I didn't run those errands. I got caught up in my video game. I'll do it tomorrow."

Would you be steaming mad? Or just say, "Oh that's OK son! I love you!" The son might think, "Wow my dad is such a pushover."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2013, 01:05:07 PM »
Why do you keep parroting this scenario? You do realize that the whole parent kicking out a lazy child is irrelavant to the premise and questions posed by the OP don't you?

The point is that just because you kick your child out, this does not mean you love them any less. In fact, if you kept your son home while never pushing him to get a job, people will tell you that you are not a loving parent. You are spoiling them.

Is spoiling someone considered to be loving?

Imagine you told your adult son to run some errands for you while you were at work. You come home from work at night and find the house covered in beer cans and pizza boxes and your son says, "Sorry, I didn't run those errands. I got caught up in my video game. I'll do it tomorrow."

Would you be steaming mad? Or just say, "Oh that's OK son! I love you!" The son might think, "Wow my dad is such a pushover."

Okay, it still seems you are avoiding the issue at hand with your weak attempt at creating a strawman to argue over. Again, the above is IRRELAVANT to the OP as the OP attempts to address a much different issue. In case you forgot, the OP asks Christians:  Would you ever (for any reason at all) torture your children with fire in the basement? Would you ever burn their skin from head to toe while listening to their screams of horror? Is there any reason, whatsoever, that you think this action would be justified for you to perform on your own children? Just picture yourself performing these actions in your mind. Please answer honestly.

Please address these questions specifically and stop waisting everyone's time on an unrelated scenario.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2013, 01:28:54 PM »
Is spoiling someone considered to be loving?

It's infinitely more loving than setting fire to them and letting them suffer forever and ever, ay-men.

As inappropriate as your analogy is to the OP, if My only two choices were "Spoil 'em or torture 'em," I'd opt for spoiling them and quietly clean up the beer cans and pizza boxes.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2013, 02:08:23 PM »
OK, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job. Would you give your son money every week? Or not give him any money?
If you're really married to using this analogy, you'll have to modify it somewhat to fit the actual questions at hand:

Ok, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job.  Would you give your son money every week?  Or not give him any money, call every single possible employer and tell them to, under no circumstances, ever hire your son, and hire someone else to beat your son repeatedly, and cut off all ties with your son so that you never have to ever interact with him ever again?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Boots

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2013, 02:30:04 PM »
Why do you keep parroting this scenario? You do realize that the whole parent kicking out a lazy child is irrelavant to the premise and questions posed by the OP don't you?

The point is that just because you kick your child out, this does not mean you love them any less. In fact, if you kept your son home while never pushing him to get a job, people will tell you that you are not a loving parent. You are spoiling them.

Is spoiling someone considered to be loving?

Imagine you told your adult son to run some errands for you while you were at work. You come home from work at night and find the house covered in beer cans and pizza boxes and your son says, "Sorry, I didn't run those errands. I got caught up in my video game. I'll do it tomorrow."

Would you be steaming mad? Or just say, "Oh that's OK son! I love you!" The son might think, "Wow my dad is such a pushover."

To rephrase what some others have already said...

In your scenario, the kicking the kid out is a form of teaching, in the hopes that the kid will wake up and do what needs to be done.  In the Xian scenario, the sinner's soul gets kicked into the lake of fire for eternity.  There is not chance of learning anything--or, at least, not to do anything regarding what has been learned.  That's it: eternal damnation.

Does THAT sound like a loving parent to you?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2013, 04:52:53 PM »
True to form, skeptic and MM have not been able to respond directly to the question posed in the OP. God plans to torture all of us--along with most of the planet, evidently-- with hellfire for all eternity.  They can see that temporary torture for not agreeing with a dictator's religious or political views is bad. But eternal torture seems an okay thing to do to someone for not accepting Jesus as lord and savior. It is even a sign of how much he loves us. :o[1]

Aware that they are on very shaky moral and ethical ground, the believers here keep changing the subject. They don't compare temporary torture of political prisoners by a dictator (evil, cruel and bad!) to eternal torture by an powerful god (loving and good!). They are trying to compare god torturing human beings forever[2] to the frustrations of an ordinary parent who is at wits end with their misbehaving kid. Like god is Mr. Kotter and human beings are the Sweathogs.


You see, eternal hellfire is only god's "tough love" or "scared straight" program--it just never, ever ends. And you don't learn anything from it. And you don't get scared straight, you just get scared and burnt. Over and over.

Actually it is nothing at all like the "tough love" or "scared straight" programs...  :(

God is not an ordinary loving human parent with a troublesome, lazy, disrespectful kid, no matter how many analogies you bring up.  God is, according to believers, the most powerful being ever, who created the universe and everything in it.  He knows exactly what will happen to each of us from the time we are born until we die. He knows exactly who will be tempted by sin, who will be tricked by Satan's demons into practicing the wrong religion, who will be born into the wrong environment and never learn about Christianity. And he knows exactly who will learn about it and then decide it is all BS. He knows when we are sleeping. He knows when we're awake. He knows when we've been bad or good.....  sorry. :-[

God, therefore,  knows exactly what it would take to convince each and every one of us of his existence, of his truth, of the sacrifice of Jesus, of the bible's reality or whatever. He could have done it anytime-- what is he waiting for? The ability to create the universe, to create life itself, and all he can come up with is one lame old book of crazy stories? Why is he invisible and non-existent to so many of us?

Don't say it is because we have hardened our hearts and want to keep on sinning.  Many people come here and tell us that they were horrible atheists sinning right and left, but then one fine day, god revealed everything to them, and they became the wonderful saved Christians they are today. So, god clearly knows how to get through to some people, but chooses not to get through to others. Doesn't god know how to save us from sin, or does he just not care about some of us?[3]

Don't say it is because we have chosen to be separate from god, because he is all-powerful, remember? We can't separate from him unless he wants to let us go.  We cannot push an all-powerful god around, anymore than a newborn baby can launch a nuclear missile attack. So there is no excuse.  If he wants to save us, he will. If he wants to burn us for all eternity, he will. It is not up to us--how could it be?

But you can't twist that kind of horrendous strong-arming into love--because Papa Doc Duvalier, Sadaam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Mao Zedong and Stalin were more loving than that. They only tortured people until the victims died.

So, admit it, you would burn your children in the basement. Because god is love.
 1. We find similar sentiments from the followers of every brutal dictator--and also from victims of domestic abuse. "He only hurts you because he loves you. If you would only obey he would not have to hurt you." This is not the sign of a healthy relationship--it is a sign of emotional disturbance and mental enslavement.
 2. because we just can't see the difference between one old magical book and every other old magical book
 3. Or is it that he likes the smell of burning fat--in hell I will produce a lot of that...does your soul stay overweight if you were a chubby tubby? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2013, 05:49:37 PM »
OK, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job. Would you give your son money every week? Or not give him any money?

if you give your son money every week, aren't you then enabling him to not get a job because he's getting free money? If you don't give the son any money but still refuse to kick him out, then your son is just going to be watching tv all day long and possibly surfing the internet. Then what is going to happen to your son when you die? How would he make a living? Wouldn't you be at all worried about your son's future?

The thing is, I had friends on both sides of the spectrum when I was 18-22ish. I had one friend who smoked pot and drank beer all day and didn't have a job because his dad gave him money. His dad said to him one day when I was over his house, "I don't care what you do with your life. I'm gonna be dead one day and you're gonna be on your own and it's gonna be your problem. I hope you're ready for that day."

On the flipside, I had another friend who was 23, and his father kicked him out because he wasn't doing anything at all. He slept on people's couches for 3 months going house to house and then he eventually found a job after 3 months and found a roommate and was able to live somewhere.  He said, "I hated my dad when he kicked me out but I now understand why he did it. I had to grow up." Kept in touch with him for 3 years and when he was 26, we lost touch because I moved cross country. I have no idea what happened to him.

Which parent would you say is the more loving one?

Skeptic is being VERY gender specific here. 

Skeptic, you clearly believe that the 25 year od son should be thrown out on his butt.  May I ask if you would treat a 25 year old daughter the same way?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2013, 05:52:23 PM »
Use of the word 'excessive' is unnecessary in your argument.  It involves comparative magnitude, and frankly, that's unnecessary and allows for wiggle-room questions such as 'who are you to judge what excessive is'.
Okay, then, "cruel and unusual".  If it works for our legal system, it should work for my argument.

Quote from: jdawg70
I think it's more clear to simply say that any punishment that, by design, can serve no other purpose than to punish, can be viewed as a non-loving act.  An action that could appear unloving if viewed out of context is all good and well I suppose, but what additional context can be brought to bear to resolve the discrepancy between 'doing this for your own good' and 'eternal torture with no hope, at all, of redemption?
Hmm.........

This, too, is a bit awkward.  Instead of talking about a punishment that serves no other purpose than to punish (which begs the question, since it, too, leaves quite a bit of wiggle room), instead say a punishment which primarily and intentionally focuses on retaliation, especially that which is cruel and unusual.

I mean, when you get right down to it, it's easy to argue that kicking an adult out of their parents' home when they won't get a job is intended to punish them.  Whereas it isn't generally considered a retaliatory act, and generally isn't cruel and unusual.

Quote from: jdawg70
Presumably, the act that appears unloving is supposed to, in the long run, result in bettering the child (or adult-child, or person, or whatever).  The parent who tosses out their adult-child from their home if they don't get a job?  That's one thing.  The parent who tosses out their adult-child and cuts them off from any support forever has just completely washed their hands of that adult-child, effectively saying 'well, I tried to make you better.  I loved you.  I failed.  I am done trying to make you better.  You are on your own'.  That parent may have loved (past tense) their adult-child, but, after washing his/her hands of the adult-child, no longer loves (present tense) him/her.
Thus why I am suggesting that we focus on retaliation, especially cruel and unusual retaliation.  Even though other kinds of punishments are by definition punishments, they aren't necessarily going to be retaliatory ones.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2013, 05:58:10 PM »
As inappropriate as your analogy is to the OP, if My only two choices were "Spoil 'em or torture 'em," I'd opt for spoiling them and quietly clean up the beer cans and pizza boxes.
Thankfully, that analogy is a false dichotomy, so it isn't relevant.  Parents have other choices besides "kick the bum out" and "let them stay there forever".  For example, they can make things uncomfortable, such as refusing to buy them entertainment or anything besides basic necessities, and make it clear that if they want those things, they have to figure out a way to provide them for themselves.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2013, 07:50:25 PM »
Parents have other choices besides "kick the bum out" and "let them stay there forever".  For example,

For example, they can show themselves, and prove they exist.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #162 on: November 18, 2013, 08:01:12 PM »

EDIT:
Also any claims of objective morality are defeated anyway, by the very loophole provided by biblegod: Jesus.

What?
Think about it; If something is objectively bad, there shouldn't be a loop hole right? Then why is it that all you have to do to get away from these punishment of an objectively bad action is accept Jesus into your heart, and suddenly you get into heaven?

That is what breaks your objective morality, it can't be objectively good or evil AND have a way out of the punishment.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #163 on: November 18, 2013, 08:14:50 PM »
Ok, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job.  Would you give your son money every week?  Or not give him any money, call every single possible employer and tell them to, under no circumstances, ever hire your son, and hire someone else to beat your son repeatedly, and cut off all ties with your son so that you never have to ever interact with him ever again?

I think this needs some more revision:

Ok, suppose you had a son who refused to get a job with you (their parent as the employer), and the parent employer never showed up to supervise. His idea of supervision, was leaving 10 dusty, contradictory manuals around the place, all saying that you should worship various parents. If you were absent, would you give your son money every week?  Or not give him any money, then call every single possible employer and tell them to, under no circumstances, ever hire your son, and hire someone else to beat your son repeatedly, and cut off all ties with your son so that you never have to ever interact with him ever again?

Haven't got it quite right.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #164 on: November 18, 2013, 11:10:42 PM »
As inappropriate as your analogy is to the OP, if My only two choices were "Spoil 'em or torture 'em," I'd opt for spoiling them and quietly clean up the beer cans and pizza boxes.
Thankfully, that analogy is a false dichotomy, so it isn't relevant.  Parents have other choices besides "kick the bum out" and "let them stay there forever".  For example, they can make things uncomfortable, such as refusing to buy them entertainment or anything besides basic necessities, and make it clear that if they want those things, they have to figure out a way to provide them for themselves.

It's easy to think of literally hundreds of appropriate responses between the extremes of coddling and condemning.  Why does the god of the Bible, allegedly the most powerful and knowing being in the universe, have trouble with such a simple idea?  (Besides the fact that he's probably just a sock puppet for vengeance-driven all-or-nothing religious zealots, I mean.)
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2013, 12:44:56 AM »

EDIT:
Also any claims of objective morality are defeated anyway, by the very loophole provided by biblegod: Jesus.

What?
Think about it; If something is objectively bad, there shouldn't be a loop hole right? Then why is it that all you have to do to get away from these punishment of an objectively bad action is accept Jesus into your heart, and suddenly you get into heaven?

That is what breaks your objective morality, it can't be objectively good or evil AND have a way out of the punishment.
Ahhhh the get out of hell Jesus card,always a way for them to excuse the evil things they do to others. These "Christians" always have an excuse for their actions,here's a thought if it is bad or evil do what Jesus would do and stop the action. Don't do the action and then use Jesus as your reason to be excused from it (your action).

 God had high standards for his followers until Jesus came along. Suddenly they has an excuse for actions that failed the high standards their God had set for them.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2013, 07:23:50 AM »
Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO.
Clearly I am an atheist however i also have two teenage children. No sane parent would do the above.
It sickens all of us every time a story appears on the news about a child being beaten/starved/abused. We know with absolute certainty it is just wrong to hurt a child, children are the most precious and innocent things on this planet.

Regarding raising children, we all make mistakes but we all try and do our best. Always try and communicate and work things out together. This is the problem with god- THERE IS NO COMMUNICATION- just eternal suffering if you haven't read the right book and agreed to the very vague rules in it.
You are condemned for a game that you did not want to play and have not even been told the rules for.
Please count me,my wife and my children out please.
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2013, 07:33:11 AM »

Imagine you told your adult son to run some errands for you while you were at work. You come home from work at night and find the house covered in beer cans and pizza boxes and your son says, "Sorry, I didn't run those errands. I got caught up in my video game. I'll do it tomorrow."

Would you be steaming mad? Or just say, "Oh that's OK son! I love you!" The son might think, "Wow my dad is such a pushover."

You are right Skeptic! Let us see what God says on the subject:

Quote
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

    Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

    And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

    And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Dontcha just love God's Ever-lovin' Word?
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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #168 on: November 19, 2013, 07:34:59 AM »
To OP question.

What the heck?

What matter of person would torture their children?

Well okay, there are likely crazy bastards who do it.

But come on...
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Offline Jag

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #169 on: November 19, 2013, 07:53:36 AM »
Why do you keep parroting this scenario? You do realize that the whole parent kicking out a lazy child is irrelavant to the premise and questions posed by the OP don't you?

The point is that just because you kick your child out, this does not mean you love them any less. In fact, if you kept your son home while never pushing him to get a job, people will tell you that you are not a loving parent. You are spoiling them.

Is spoiling someone considered to be loving?

Imagine you told your adult son to run some errands for you while you were at work. You come home from work at night and find the house covered in beer cans and pizza boxes and your son says, "Sorry, I didn't run those errands. I got caught up in my video game. I'll do it tomorrow."

Would you be steaming mad? Or just say, "Oh that's OK son! I love you!" The son might think, "Wow my dad is such a pushover."
That you can even compare this ^^^ to an eternity in hell demonstrates the depth of your blindness and unwillingness to think at all.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #170 on: November 19, 2013, 10:19:23 AM »
Okay, then, "cruel and unusual".  If it works for our legal system, it should work for my argument.
I don't know if that escapes the problem I have - the response to this is just as easily "who are you to judge what cruel is?  'That's subjective', or 'only god can judge what is cruel', or 'that isn't cruel because blahblahblah'...
Quote
Hmm.........

This, too, is a bit awkward.  Instead of talking about a punishment that serves no other purpose than to punish (which begs the question, since it, too, leaves quite a bit of wiggle room), instead say a punishment which primarily and intentionally focuses on retaliation, especially that which is cruel and unusual.
When I say 'punishment that serves no other purpose', I mean a punishment that logically cannot serve any other purpose - for example, a punishment that is eternal in nature.  Now, when I started this reply I was thinking that this left no wiggle room; it is an objective demarcation for unnecessary punishment as it is simply predicated on logic and requires no comparative evaluation of 'levels' of cruelty or excess.  Unfortunately, this applies only to the person/entity subject to being eternally tortured.  I suppose that there is still wiggle room to say that person a's eternal torment is, on a whole, for the betterment of...all of reality or something (I can't actually come up with any rationale as to why eternal tortured would be warranted, but that's not exactly a strong argument).
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I mean, when you get right down to it, it's easy to argue that kicking an adult out of their parents' home when they won't get a job is intended to punish them.  Whereas it isn't generally considered a retaliatory act, and generally isn't cruel and unusual.
I guess that's the thing though...if a parent kicked out their adult-child with the sole intent of punishing them (as in, the act has no intention of bettering the adult-child but strictly to make them hurt), then that would be a retaliatory and hence unloving act.  And I think eternal damnation is logically necessarily an act that is intended strictly for harm.  As per above, however, I suppose one could attempt to make the argument that such an act could have the intention of, say, teaching (scaring?) the other kids in the house to not be lazy douchebags, and on the whole be a more loving act, but that seems like a really difficult argument to make frankly.
Quote
Thus why I am suggesting that we focus on retaliation, especially cruel and unusual retaliation.  Even though other kinds of punishments are by definition punishments, they aren't necessarily going to be retaliatory ones.
Perhaps that is the best approach - 'retaliatory', for all intents and purposes, works for the argumentation.
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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #171 on: November 19, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »
To OP question.

What the heck?

What maNNer of person would torture their children?   <---- Fixed it.

Well okay, there are likely crazy bastards who do it.

But come on...

The OP question isn't asking people to torture their kids. It's asking how a creator being (parent) could ever be considered at all good if its response to people who don't believe it exists (disobedient children) is to punish them for eternity in hellfire.

If no Christian parent can think of a single reason they would do such a thing to their kid, no matter how heinous the kid's actions, why do they worship a god that does something so repugnant?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #172 on: November 19, 2013, 10:39:00 AM »
If no Christian parent can think of a single reason they would do such a thing to their kid, no matter how heinous the kid's actions, why do they worship a god that does something so repugnant?

The parent/kid dynamic seems to be an apples to oranges comparison when relating to God and mankind. In the grand scheme, parents have children that are in essense their peers and the same cannot be said for the imagined relationship between God and man where God is infinately "higher" than man.

As I have said before, a better comparison would make God a programmer/designer and mankind would be sort of like Sims that existed as a part of God's design.

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Re: Would You Ever Torture Your Children With Fire In in the Basement?
« Reply #173 on: November 19, 2013, 11:05:15 AM »
The parent/kid dynamic seems to be an apples to oranges comparison when relating to God and mankind. In the grand scheme, parents have children that are in essense their peers and the same cannot be said for the imagined relationship between God and man where God is infinately "higher" than man.

As I have said before, a better comparison would make God a programmer/designer and mankind would be sort of like Sims that existed as a part of God's design.

Maybe a far better comparison (for the sake of the OP question) would be to ask:
"Would You Ever Torture Your Family Dog With Fire In in the Basement? YES or NO?"

I can see us being like dogs to Yahweh.  Simple, dumb creatures, with no hope of ever really understanding what he wants, but hopefully capable of some simple tricks and obedience.  Putting the dog in the place of the child emphasises the gulf in understanding that (we are told) exists between Yahweh and man.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?