Author Topic: God is Not A Man [#2777]  (Read 390 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
God is Not A Man [#2777]
« on: November 15, 2013, 07:11:58 PM »
Hi There:  I really enjoyed your presentation and I think it gets right down to the nitty-gritty of the whole question...  "What's it all about, Alfie"? 
First of all, I am a Seeker and a Believer in Good....   This is a very brief "confession".  I am nearly 80 years old and only recently did I realize after studying the Bible thoroughly with the help of the computer and many bible scholars who are versed in the ancient languages that God is not a little old man who sits up on a throne somewhere in space with his eye on me... these are quotes from the old and new testament with some of my own interpretation thrown in for good measure.....
and by goggling you can find the references..  Three places in the O.T. we are told.."God is not a man"  in the N.T. we are told..".God is Spirit"...and "there are no flesh or bones in a spirit". "God is Truth", "God is Love",  and in the O.T.  God is  "I AM".  I call that, "reality". 
Much of the things we read in the Bible are allegory, parable or fable.  Jesus even told his disciples he had spoken to them "in figures" or "figuratively", and after he left them, they would discover the truth which would set them free..of confusion and lack of what He had been trying to say in his "parables"or "stories" .  The Hebrews used a lot of allegory to explain things.. There are some Christians who take the bible literally and  do not consider the customs and ethnic folkways of the times...But they are happy with what they do understand and are quite successful in their lives and help a  lot of other people to live happy productive lives.
Much of what has been written is actual history and the prognosticators prophecies have proven accurate..so far...even now, as we move toward a one world government which was prophesied  in Ezekiel 37-38  and the book of Daniel .   Also Jesus never claimed to be God...In fact he said not to even call him "Good" for only his Heavenly Father was truly GOOD..and though he strove to have the mind of God and told us all to strive to emulate the Heavenly Father..(which truly was an "it" and not a "Him") Jesus said  "When you pray, say, Our Father WHICH art in heaven" (the use of " which" refers to a non-gendered article which is what "spirit" is but few people have ever noticed Jesus reference to  God, as an "IT"? Maybe the translators that came after King James' translator did because all subsequent Bibles say  "Our Father WHO" to agree with the use of the male gender personal pronoun "HE" .King Jame's translators got the WHICH part right but goofed on the "God" name which was taken from the Indo-European word "Gudt" which in German means "GOOD", "perfect" or "finished"or "completed".  So based on that, I have no problem with the Bible..I also believe that like  clinically dead patience who come back to life now days, the 75 lbs of myrrh and aloe that was brought to wrap Jesus up after the crucifixion,( and the fact that it is written by one of the early Biblical scholars that there had been another crucifixion victim which survived the ordeal) and the several near death experiences that Jesus brought back to life as did the apostles after Jesus was gone, that it is likely that Jesus also came back to life again as aloe and myrrh were used for healing not embalming...But for many Christians to believe that would be like it must be for some children who find out that Santa Claus is really not the one and only that flies around the sky on Christmas eve delivering pkgs.  Incidentally, Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th.. He was born during lambing season or at least when shepherds were out tending their flocks on the green pastures...probably spring.    But what better time to have Christmas lights and cheerful shiny things, than in the bleak cold of winter (where it is bleak and cold..that is.).?
Also the Bible teaches that if we look for good in bad situations, we can  use our brains to figure solutions..There are sooooo many good ideas on living life successfully as we use the Bible as our instruction book...The Old Testament is what the Islamics base their Sharia Law on...Jesus came to fulfill the law...to teach that Love was the answer to Peace among all men...He could only teach it he couldn't make people do it... But it was a lot better philosophy than what they had ascribed to before...As for human sacrifices, that was done by the Pagans who worshipped their own kind of gods..not the God of Moses and Abraham..And every one of God's children, like David and Solomon and Annanias and Saphira and many others, who disobeyed the princeples of love, had dire consequences..or "punishments" as a result..."Ye shall reap, that which ye sow" and "do not avenge yourselves." I will avenge. "Vengence is mine" thus saith the Lord.!!!  And Jesus never said he was God.. He did say..."Heavenly Father, I would that my disciples were one, as you and I are one, and they would be one, with me"..He meant..one, in agreement..not one in a physical body!! That what some goofballs like to say proves that God and Jesus are the same "person" and the holy spirit is a person too somehow interated but separate from Jesus and God.. That is what really pisses the Islamics off..They think we worship 3 separate Gods and  tell people that they are one God...A bunch of political morons got together at the council of Niacea 300 years a.d. and decided that the father son and holy spirit were 3 persons of one godhead.  St. Patrick tried to show the Catholic Church that it was like a 3 leaf clover or shamrock... it had 3 parts or 3 lobs of one leaf..but he said he was explaining the Trinity to them..
The cockeyed theocrats still said  God was 3 people. They weren't satisfied to see the three aspects of the one Spirit. 
 
We as Christians know that many are called but few are chosen. Everyone is offered the gift of forgiveness and believing that Love can be  Lord and Master of their live. However, few chose to accept that gift  It is only by the infilling of the holy spirit into the  heart, that one can know the True Good...And I would love to know that someday you will understand too.  It's no big mystery to me any more..It all makes sense...I really don't care if there is a hereafter or not...As long as I can be happy while I am here on earth alive and kicking, I think it is worth believing in something that is invisible but what can affect the way I behave and the way others behave. 
May the Spirit of Love, Truth and Honor bless you and yours..
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10573
  • Darwins +192/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: God is Not A Man [#2777]
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 07:45:18 PM »
Well, if you are 80 you are more than likely set in your ways.  All this time I thought God looked like George Burns.  How do you explain that "made in His image thing"?  For those of us not lucky to have spent so much time studying the "true" nature of the bible I guess we will just go to hell for our ignorance.  That is what a loving god does.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5245
  • Darwins +599/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: God is Not A Man [#2777]
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 07:53:02 PM »
I have no problems believing in things that we cannot necessarily see, but that have an effect on our lives.  Gravity and electromagnetism, for example.

But even though we can't necessarily see those two physical forces, we can see the effects they have on the world, and more importantly, we can trace back those effects pretty unambiguously.

Can't exactly do that with God.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13035
  • Darwins +354/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: God is Not A Man [#2777]
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 09:07:25 PM »
WALL OF TEXT. I hit my head. You made me have a boo boo.

:'(

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline shnozzola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1967
  • Darwins +110/-2
Re: God is Not A Man [#2777]
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 09:11:05 PM »
I like the fact that you are writing to WWGHA at 80.  Challenge us, challenge yourself - the debate that technology now allows to go on worldwide can only help humanity. 

Quote
We as Christians know that many are called but few are chosen

I question statements like that. Do you have a Calvinist background?  Quakers believe every man has a little bit of god in them, not so much a "few are chosen" type of belief.  That's the thing about religions - we got Sunnis and Shia and Catholics and Amish and orthodox Jews and Krishnas.  Of course everybody's convinced "it's no mystery and it all makes sense."

Quote
May the Spirit of Love, Truth and Honor bless you and yours.

I can agree on that.

Become a member and continue the challenge.
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: God is Not A Man [#2777]
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 11:03:26 AM »
Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]


*Destruction of Egypt 

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.[5]
This passage is one of the most erroneous in the entire Bible. Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.[6]

In Ezekiel 30:10-11 he further predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Egypt:

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army—the most ruthless of nations— will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (NIV)
However, Nebuchadnezzar was defeated in his only attempt to invade Egypt.[7]

*Nile will dry up

Yep, still thereEzekiel 30:12 continues with a prediction that the Nile River will run dry.

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken. (NIV)
There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history.

*Triumph of Judah

In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind. Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field; And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah. Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal: Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Yet it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him.

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers.

*Isaiah predicts the Nile drying up, Sea draining


 In Isaiah 19:1-8 Isaiah tells us the Nile will dry up, ocean drains in the time of pagan Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.Isaiah 19:7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more. 8 The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away.
This is an interesting prophecy because Isaiah outlines a very clear timeframe, the alleged prophet is unmistakably referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th Century. (Isaiah 19:1-3) Since then, Egyptians have stopped using charms, wizards, and there are no statue-worshiping idolaters anymore, (Isaiah 19:3) so the reader can conclude this isn't an end times prophecy. The alleged prophet blatantly identifies the dried up river (Isaiah 19:5) with the Nile (Isaiah 19:8). And he goes even further to say one of the seas Egypt borders will drain, and this appears to coincide with the Nile River drying up. There is absolutely no hint of this prophecy being interpreted symbolically or metaphorically. Isaiah actually goes out of his way to stress the literal, physical, carnal fulfillment of this prophecy.

*Egyptians will speak the dead language of Canaan


 In Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah says Egyptians will learn the tongue of Canaanites

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
Not only has the Canaanite language never been spoken by Egyptians, but it is now an extinct language. There is the very unlikely possibility Isaiah was referring to Hebrew, which is technically a Canaanite language. However, Hebrew was also never adopted by the Egyptians. And according to the context of this passage, Isaiah is specifically referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th century. (See Above) So even if Egyptians started speaking Hebrew at this very moment, it would still be an inaccurate prediction. Also, it's worth noting that Isaiah believes the Egyptians will convert to Mosaic Judaism (a dead religion) and start offering sacrifices to the LORD shortly after this incident, (Isaiah 19:21) a practice no longer done by Jews since the Temple was destroyed and priesthood lost.

*Failure to smite Jebus


In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.
This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.[8]
The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to be slaughtered entirely):

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


*Israelites will be unbeatable


In Exodus 23:27 God tells Moses that he will defeat every enemy he encounters:

I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. (NIV)
However, history indicates many defeats suffered by the Israelites. Note that most believers will pull a no true Scotsman and claim that the defeats happened only at times when the Israelites weren't pious enough.

 Land promisesIn the Bible, God allegedly made promises to Abraham to deliver him land then under the control of other tribes. For example, upon Abraham entering Canaan, Genesis 12:7 states, in part, "The LORD appeared to Abram and said, 'To your offspring I will give this land.'" (NIV) This promise was reiterated in slightly different ways throughout the books of Genesis and Exodus.

However, this did not reasonably soon thereafter come to be, as illustrated by Hebrews 11:13, which, regarding Abraham's descendents, states,

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (NIV)
Similarly, in Exodus 23:31 God promises to give the Israelites all the land from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea and from the Euphrates River to "the desert." Historically this never happened.

*Joshua was also promised specific land. Per Joshua 1:3-5:

I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Great Sea on the west. No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. (NIV)
Strangely, Joshua 11:23 indicates that he did indeed take the land:

So Joshua took the entire land, just as the LORD had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war. (NIV)
However, history and the Bible indicate all the land was not taken. Per Joshua 13:1-5:

When Joshua was old and well advanced in years, the LORD said to him, "You are very old, and there are still very large areas of land to be taken over. This is the land that remains: all the regions of the Philistines and Geshurites: from the Shihor River on the east of Egypt to the territory of Ekron on the north, all of it counted as Canaanite; the territory of the five Philistine rulers in Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron—that of the Avvites from the south, all the land of the Canaanites, from Arah of the Sidonians as far as Aphek, the region of the Amorites, the area of the Gebalites; and all Lebanon to the east, from Baal Gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo Hamath. (NIV)

*Israel will live in peace with its neighbors

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:

No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)
Ouch, that one hurt. A consistent aspect of history is that Israel has never gotten along with its neighbors. (Or, if you prefer, that its neighbors have never gotten along with it.) There's still hope that Israel and the neighbourhood will be peaceful one day, but it requires everyone in the region to stop "inflicting punishment" on each other.

*Davidic line will endure foreverAt several instances in the Old Testament God promises David that the descendants of Solomon will rule Judah forever. For example, in 2 Samuel 7:13-16 God tells the prophet Nathan:

He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever. (NIV)
There is no indication that this is anything other than a literal promise. In fact the promise is reiterated during times when the future of the earthly kingdom is in doubt. In 1 Kings 11:34-36:

But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. (NIV)
Unfortunately for the prophet Nathan, the Davidic line ended with King Zedekiah in about 586 BC. [9] Biblical inerrantists, spotting a possible loophole, claim that Jesus , being descended from David, fulfilled this prophecy. Per Acts 2:29-31,

Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. (NIV)
However, there are many reasons this is an unsatisfactory solution. Aspects of the 2 Samuel reference above, specifically "When he does wrong," do not seem consistent with Christian doctrine of Jesus as the Son of God. Additionally, the line of kings is described as being continuous. Consider Jeremiah 33:17:

For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, (NIV)
This leaves unexplained the near 600-year gap between Zedekiah and Jesus. Further, there is the question of the Davidic line after Jesus, as he apparently died childless. Note: Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 as evidence for Jesus' siblings. Note: A precedent is previously set for biblical linage being a mantel rather then genetic linage due to Gen. 24 and 27, Jacob's theft of Esau's blessing and the selling of the birthright.

In reality the only evidence available that Jesus is a descendant of David is in the genealogies in Matthew and Luke. The alleged prophecy stresses the literal descendancy from David. We read in 2 Samuel 7:12:

When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. (NIV)
However, if the virgin birth doctrine be valid then Jesus is not actually the son of Joseph, making virgin birth seem incompatible with Jesus' descendancy from David.

Finally, several Bible verses seem to indicate that Jesus is in fact not of the line of David. For example Matthew 22:41-45 states:

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" (NIV)

Indeed.


*Jesus will be a Nazarene

In the Bible, Jesus is born in Bethlehem but grows up in Nazareth. Matthew credits the Nazareth upbringing as a fullfilment of prophecy:

Matt. 2:23 And [Mary, Joseph, and Jesus] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.
Unlike most of the other "prophecies" in this category, we can't even tell which Old Testament passage, if any, Matthew is twisting to fit the story; no OT prophecy seems relevant. It's almost as if he's just flat-out declaring that this was prophecied and hoping no one calls his bluff. Of course, even this one is't too big a stone for apologists to swallow. As web page dedicated to this particular problem puts it: "First, it is necessary to point out that a genuine textual problem only exists if one has exhausted every possibility of interpretation, and there simply is no reasonable explanation that resolves the difficulty."

The most popular Christian explanation is that "Nazarene" is a figurative expression for anyone who is despised or rejected, as Jesus is at various points in the New Testament and the Messiah at various points in the old. Not only is that a heck of a cop-out, but if it's Matthew's intention, then it makes little sense for him to say that Jesus moving to a literal Nazareth is a fulfillment of the "figurative Nazarene" prophecy. A likelier possibility, and one which makes the author of Matthew look less dishonest and/or stupid, is that "the prophets" doesn't mean the Old Testament authors, but some other person or group of people, or an oral tradition. Of course, in that instance the case for a "fulfilled prophecy" is left empty-handed (and it's a catch-all excuse for similar failures).

*Jesus will be pierced

John 19:37 claims that Jesus being pierced in the course of his execution fulfills a prophecy: "and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced.'" The NIV translation in a footnote indicates the source of this prophecy is Zechariah 12:10:

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (NIV)
The first observation to make is that the verse in John is an inaccurate quote, leaving out the word "me." This is to alleviate inconsistencies with the one speaking, presumably John, also being the one pierced, claimed to be Jesus. In fact, this relates to the problem inherent in assuming the verse from John refers to Jesus--that the "me" who is pierced cannot be the same as the "him" who is mourned for.

Also the context of Zechariah 12 is of an invading army and is not intended as a prophecy of Jesus.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 11:09:57 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.