Author Topic: Amputees [#2778]  (Read 571 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Amputees [#2778]
« on: November 15, 2013, 07:13:21 PM »
Dear Person(s) Who Made This Website:

While this will probably not change your site or your thinking, and while I am sure I am not the first person to point this out, much of your reasoning rests on a fatal flaw in understanding.

In the Bible verse you quote, Matthew 21:21, for example, you accurately quote Jesus as saying "if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Along with other verses mentioned on your site however, you misinterpret and de-contextualize the meaning of the words.

The question in Matthew rests on what one is placing his or her belief IN.  In other words, what is the object or subject of your belief?  It is yourself, the prayers, the request?  The text is not saying "If you fervently believe in what you are asking for, you will receive it."

Instead it is stating, "If you believe IN CHRIST, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."  One must first believe in Christ! that He is able to do all things according to the will of God. 

Secondly, Scripture, whether Old Testament or New, is written in a didactic way, where two seemingly contradictory elements are brought together; it is meant to be read, therefore, with an eye towards paradox.  (Note that a paradox is not a contradiction.) So that even a verse such as Matthew 19:26 stating that in Christ all things are possible, one must still temper those with verses that insist (that) without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


That said, God's miraculous healings still happen today.  There are many, many accounts of people being healed in ways science cannot account for. For reasons known only to the mind of God, most of the healings (even the ones I know of) tend to be the REMOVAL of something, not the GROWTH of something.

People have had sight restored for example; but it is through the removal of hindrances to eyesight, not the growing of new eyeballs. Why this is, I don't know.  It doesn't matter.

The idea that God not re-growing amputees limbs somehow disproves His existence is wholly insufficient to "explain away" God.   It simply proves that God operates in ways different from how we would expect or like (which is also found in the Bible).  He wouldn't be much of a God if He did everything the way humans did.

Creation itself (with all of its fine-tuning) is a pretty big evidentiary clue that God exists; that needs to still be dealt with, as well as many other factual and logical problems that come up for those believing in a godless universe.  Even science has gotten back into the game recently with the Big Bang matching Judeo-Christian accounts of the origin of the world.

This may or may not provide clarification for you.  It is true whether you believe it or not.

Grace and peace to you,
[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 07:37:41 PM »
Well, that god of yours seems pretty complicated.  Good thing there are people out there who can explain it to those of us just trying to get by.  So, since I don't believe in the "sky daddy" I guess I cannot expect It to do anything for me.  That's fine.  I take care of myself.  Just tell his followers to stay back and quit trying to force their beliefs on those of us who don't buy into the god thing.

Happy no undies running up your crack to you.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online Nam

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 09:11:06 PM »
Didn't I eat the special decoder ring? I swear I did.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline wright

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 09:34:55 PM »
Creation itself (with all of its fine-tuning) is a pretty big evidentiary clue that God exists; that needs to still be dealt with, as well as many other factual and logical problems that come up for those believing in a godless universe.

The "fine tuning" argument would hold more weight if Mars and Venus had turned out to be more like Edgar Rice Burroughs envisioned. The majority of the universe is "fine tuned" for literally nothing, certainly not Earthly life. In addition, there are far more problems with logic and a so-far total lack of evidence for a universe with a god or gods.

Quote
Even science has gotten back into the game recently with the Big Bang matching Judeo-Christian accounts of the origin of the world.

This may or may not provide clarification for you.  It is true whether you believe it or not.

Grace and peace to you,
[name removed]

If the Judeo-Christian accounts of the origin of the world / universe had mentioned the cosmic microwave radiation or other key observed evidence of the Big Bang, then they would have something approaching validity. But the best they can do is claim common elements with the origin myths of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and similar creation stories. And likewise claim the same amount of empirical evidence: none.

Your apologetics are not well thought-out and unconvincing.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 09:54:08 PM »
Dear person who sent an email to the dear person who made this website:

As you continue to believe these things, just be respectful of people who believe differently, or are not as certain of what is "true whether you believe it or not."

Grace and peace to you also,
Shnozzola
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 09:16:22 AM »
<snip>
Why this is, I don't know.  It doesn't matter.

In the one short sentence that I have bolded you remove the need for the other 500+ words that you have written.

A precis of your argument is

"stuff happens and stuff doesn't happen, I don't know why nor do I care."

This is neither an original argument or an argument that holds any water.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 11:17:29 AM »

The idea that God not re-growing amputees limbs somehow disproves His existence is wholly insufficient to "explain away" God.   It simply proves that God operates in ways different from how we would expect or like

It also provides the fact none of these 'healings' you mention are distinguishable from pure chance. It points to the fact when unambiguous miracles are needed for a person to be whole and fully functioning...they never happen.

In other words there is NOTHING to distinguish what you believe from fiction; NOTHING that gives your belief in Yahweh any more weight than someone from anceint Greece believeing in Zues.

So tell us, Why wont God heal amputees? You seem to avoid answering that question.


« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 11:19:03 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 03:39:36 PM »
Dear Person(s) Who Made This Email:

(Note that a paradox is not a contradiction.)

Yes, it is.  It is an inherent contradiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox
Quote
A paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true. Most logical paradoxes are known to be invalid arguments but are still valuable in promoting critical thinking


For reasons known only to the mind of God...
...Why this is, I don't know.  It doesn't matter.

It does matter.  This is the whole question of wwgha.  You have answered with "I dunno, and it doesn't matter."  You get a grade of F-.  You fail. 

The idea that God not re-growing amputees limbs somehow disproves His existence is wholly insufficient to "explain away" God. 

You are right, it doesn't.  But it is not meant to.  However, the idea that god heals some things but never, ever heals others is significant.  There are only a few conclusions at which you can arrive about a god that does this.

Creation itself (with all of its fine-tuning) is a pretty big evidentiary clue that God exists

It's not.  That is just religious wishful thinking.

that needs to still be dealt with, as well as many other factual and logical problems that come up for those believing in a godless universe. 

Sure, sure.  Come here, join our forum and lay it all out for us.  We'd be interested to know what these factual and logical problems are.  Just please be aware, we've all of us here been down those roads before.  Don't be surprised to discover you are wrong.

the Big Bang matching Judeo-Christian accounts of the origin of the world.

?  uh, no.  It doesn't.  You are mistaken.

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Online Graybeard

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 05:05:50 PM »
Instead it is stating, "If you believe IN CHRIST, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."  One must first believe in Christ! that He is able to do all things according to the will of God. 

So basically, of all amputees, not one has ever believed in Christ. That seems unlikely, doesn't it?

Obviously you believe, so, would you be willing to undergo an amputation? Or do you actually believe that God Does Not Heal Amputees?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 04:06:07 AM »
Quote from: Beliver#2778
Instead it is stating, "If you believe IN CHRIST, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."  One must first believe in Christ! that He is able to do all things according to the will of God.

Therefore, someone who believes in Christ WILL have their prayers answered?  You seem to agree....

Quote from: Beliver#2778
That said, God's miraculous healings still happen today.  There are many, many accounts of people being healed in ways science cannot account for.

Whoa - let's see the EVIDENCE of these healings please.  Then we can discuss whether "science" can account for them.  But regardless - you are saying that healings DO occur.

So please explain - why DOES your god hate amputees, since "God's miraculous healings still happen today"....just never to an amputee?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Fiji

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 05:03:52 AM »
Didn't I eat the special decoder ring? I swear I did.

-Nam

You did, but, you know, there's 40000 different special decoder rings ... that'd give you some pretty bad indigestion.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Amputees [#2778]
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2013, 11:17:01 AM »
While this will probably not change your site or your thinking, and while I am sure I am not the first person to point this out, much of your reasoning rests on a fatal flaw in understanding.

In the Bible verse you quote, Matthew 21:21, for example, you accurately quote Jesus as saying "if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Along with other verses mentioned on your site however, you misinterpret and de-contextualize the meaning of the words.

You can re-contextualize the passages of the bible in any manner you deem appropriate, as long as you recognize that the men who wrote the books did so from the inspiration of an all-powerful god who cannot possibly exist.

My context is that the bible is prose written by old men but means nothing otherwise. What religious book wasn't written with inspiration from its god? Which bible is correct? Obviously, yours would be correct or you wouldn't follow it. That is the true context. You view your bible/bible god/god in the way that means something to you. It's not better, it's not worse, it's just you.

Contextualizing passes of the bible is whatever you want it to be, but for many of us it is much ado about nothing.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.