Author Topic: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?  (Read 17426 times)

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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #348 on: February 21, 2014, 11:49:28 AM »

 
I'll just label you a stupid fool who is not only deceived by the devil, but on a road to hell with no chance at all.


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)


3. Don't quote bible at me.  I'm immune to it.  It is like shooting bullets at Superman.  Only, I quote back:


Interesting! I never thought the bible had bullets.  I have had many Christians tell me I'm "on a road to hell" too.  They hold up their bibles like a gun and tell me I'm going to hell.  I just tell them their gun isn't loaded.  I have yet to see any bullets.

If you mean that I was responsible for point 3 comment above, that was not my wording. It was another forum member. 
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #349 on: February 21, 2014, 12:26:46 PM »
The Bible sets forth several characteristics of the true prophet in relationship to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures as we know them:

1. He / she will exalt the true God (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

2. He / she will teach obedience to God's law (2 Chronicles 24:19, 20; Deuteronomy 13:4).

3. He / she will believe and teach that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2, 3).

4. He / she will speak as he is inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).

.....
I have to admit, I have lost this game before .....

Wait - you mean you applied all the tests from the Bible, they were passed, and the prophecy proved to be wrong?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #350 on: February 21, 2014, 01:12:31 PM »
No.  When all tests are passed, then it is a true prophecy. Only a true prophecy will come to pass from a true prophet of God.  Prophets which do not meet the criteria fail.

Coming from the Pentecostal background, I did not know this.  When I realised what the tests of a true prophet are according to the Bible, I re-examined my beliefs and adjusted them accordingly, hence now being a Seventh-day Adventist.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #351 on: February 21, 2014, 01:22:44 PM »
^So, SwordofGod, are you admitting that you have no such evidence?

Posting a Youtube video with the words "our survey said ... fail" rather strongly implies that you don't, since if you did, you wouldn't hesitate to post it.

Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.

Bullshit.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #352 on: February 21, 2014, 02:09:24 PM »
When I realised what the tests of a true prophet are according to the Bible,

Have you considered that the tests the bible proposes might be... sub-optimal?  That is, they may yield false positives and negatives.  Or what tests might be used from the point of view of a rationalist?   

I ask because the bible was written long before anyone understood how the brain worked, or biases, or anything about epistemology.  Here is the thing: there are 33,000+ sects of xianity.  Many of them have very different interpretations as to what prophesies mean, how they were "fulfilled", whether the were fulfilled, etc. And they all pretty much claim to use the bible as a guide to know real prophets and prophesies from fake ones. 

To me, all this confusion indicates that the methods laid out in the bible are...not very good. The results are not reproduceable, as we would say in quality jargon.  That is, you have a process that varies widely when use by different people.  That is a poor process.

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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #353 on: February 21, 2014, 02:14:42 PM »

 
I'll just label you a stupid fool who is not only deceived by the devil, but on a road to hell with no chance at all.


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)


3. Don't quote bible at me.  I'm immune to it.  It is like shooting bullets at Superman.  Only, I quote back:


Interesting! I never thought the bible had bullets.  I have had many Christians tell me I'm "on a road to hell" too.  They hold up their bibles like a gun and tell me I'm going to hell.  I just tell them their gun isn't loaded.  I have yet to see any bullets.

If you mean that I was responsible for point 3 comment above, that was not my wording. It was another forum member.

I find it interesting that the only response I get from you is from a post that was not even directed to you.  I responded to your claims with two long posts in this thread and you have failed to address even one of my questions.  I know you are getting shot up pretty good in this war zone but I find it interesting that the only response I get from you is from a post that was not even directed towards you.  I was joking around with SCREWTAPE.  This post of mine was directed to SCREWTAPE.  I did not say YOU were responsible for point 3.  If you look carefully at the quotes, you can see this.  I think you are just dodging my #268 reply and #343 reply.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #354 on: February 21, 2014, 02:45:48 PM »
Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.
I certainly don't think Nam was clowning or joking around.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #355 on: February 21, 2014, 03:03:16 PM »
The Bible sets forth several characteristics of the true prophet in relationship to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures as we know them:

1. He / she will exalt the true God (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

2. He / she will teach obedience to God's law (2 Chronicles 24:19, 20; Deuteronomy 13:4).

3. He / she will believe and teach that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2, 3).

4. He / she will speak as he is inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).

Source: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/bhp/bhpc06.html
This all assumes that your belief is actually true.  How do you know this without falling into the trap of circular reasoning?  That is to say, what outside the Bible stands as solid evidence to support only your belief and no other?

Second, this is post hoc reasoning even so, because a false (but earnest) prophet can easily meet the conditions you described.  The only way to tell if they are true or false is whether their prophecies come true or not.

Third, it is incredibly easy for a person to interpret prophecy to suit their whim.  A prophecy that seems false could actually be shown to be true much later on, and a prophecy that seems true could actually end up being false (because people tried to manipulate events to make it come true).  So how do you tell whether it's true or false when someone could come along later and show that a seemingly false prophecy was actually true, and a seemingly true prophecy was actually false?

In short, it's practically impossible to tell whether a prophecy was true or false.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #356 on: February 21, 2014, 03:19:01 PM »
Because of the tendency to interpret prophetic statements in hindsight, to make virtually any passage fit virtually any situation, I propose two conditions for a genuine prophesy:

  • Prediction must be accurate to date and place.
  • Event must not be something that can be deliberately caused by humans.
Thus, a prediction such as the formation or breakdown of a nation would not be a prophesy, whereas an account of a December 26, 2004 tsunami in the Indian Ocean would be.

At least until humans figure out how to make tsunamis or time machines; then all bets are off.
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #357 on: February 21, 2014, 06:07:13 PM »

 
I'll just label you a stupid fool who is not only deceived by the devil, but on a road to hell with no chance at all.


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)


3. Don't quote bible at me.  I'm immune to it.  It is like shooting bullets at Superman.  Only, I quote back:


Interesting! I never thought the bible had bullets.  I have had many Christians tell me I'm "on a road to hell" too.  They hold up their bibles like a gun and tell me I'm going to hell.  I just tell them their gun isn't loaded.  I have yet to see any bullets.

If you mean that I was responsible for point 3 comment above, that was not my wording. It was another forum member.

I find it interesting that the only response I get from you is from a post that was not even directed to you.  I responded to your claims with two long posts in this thread and you have failed to address even one of my questions.  I know you are getting shot up pretty good in this war zone but I find it interesting that the only response I get from you is from a post that was not even directed towards you.  I was joking around with SCREWTAPE.  This post of mine was directed to SCREWTAPE.  I did not say YOU were responsible for point 3.  If you look carefully at the quotes, you can see this.  I think you are just dodging my #268 reply and #343 reply.

I am not dodging your reply.  Please accept my apologies if that's how it came across.  I'm just getting used to this forum thing. Would you mind sending me your post again?

Thanks.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #358 on: February 21, 2014, 06:09:58 PM »
Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.
I certainly don't think Nam was clowning or joking around.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but since it was me the comments were made to, I'll be the judge of that.
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #359 on: February 21, 2014, 07:06:12 PM »
Quote
This all assumes that your belief is actually true.  How do you know this without falling into the trap of circular reasoning?  That is to say, what outside the Bible stands as solid evidence to support only your belief and no other?


First of all, the problem of circular reasoning is often found among scientists:

A '...geologist who has recognized the circularity problem is Dr. Ronald West, at Kansas State University.'

"Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so, we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory."
(http://www.icr.org/article/94/)

Anyway, as mentioned, the acid test which verifies a prophet as bone fide, initially comes from the Bible.  All prophets which deviate from this, are false. The Bible sets the standard in the same way western science sets its own standards.   

21 And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' — 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:21-22; NKJV)

Arguably, using this verse to prove a prophet is true is not circular reasoning.  A is true, so that does not mean that B is true.  B could be true or false. A = the Bible, B being the prophet or prophecy. Circular reasoning says 'A is true because B is true' 'B is true because A is true. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning).  If the prophet is potentially true, it is because he has met the criteria set out in the test, but it must be meaured by external evidence. 

So, here comes the external evidence apart from the bible.  If the prophet fits the criteria on paper so to speak, in line with the full biblical acid test, it is compared with actual world events, not necessarily listed in the bible. The prophecy could be verified by other sources, such as newspapers, tv programs etc.  If the prophecy did not come to pass, then that person has failed.  The external evidence outside the bible is vital if we are to increase our faith and understand the fulfillment of prophecy.  What helps contribute to our faith in Gods prophets, is their track record as well.

Prophecy is not open to interpretation as God meant what He meant and not ten or a hundred other things. The Bible is clear what it means.  When Daniel told the King of Bablylon, "You are the Head of Gold" it was clear what Daniel meat to us.  It means Babylon is represented by the Gold head in the dream of the male image.  When Daniel says another kingdom will come after Babylon and replace it, which was represented by Silver, we know that means the Medo Persians.  In Daniel 5, this is clarified. So it continues. It is very specific. We have used external evidence i.e historical facts, sources and other items to prove that the Medo-Persians did infact take over Babylon, and then Greece, and then the divided kingdom of Rome. 


Quote
Second, this is post hoc reasoning even so, because a false (but earnest) prophet can easily meet the conditions you described.  The only way to tell if they are true or false is whether their prophecies come true or not.

A false prophet can not easilly meet the conditions I described.  For example, how many prophets after Jesus, kept the 7th day Sabbath, kept all 10 commandments, believed Jesus was the Son of God, and all the other criteria within those basic outlines of the acid test, and got all their prophecies right? So, Mormons have a prophet who keeps and taught Sunday observance, therefore on that alone, he is a false prophet, no matter if all his prophesies came to pass.  Prophets have to meet ALL criteria. The way to tell first off, which normally cuts them off straight away, is according to Isaiah 8:20.. To the Law and to the testimony, if the prophet speaks not according to this it is because there is no light in him.  This means, included in the Law is the Sabbath teaching, so if the prophet does not teach and observe this law just as the testimony of the other biblical prophets agree, then we can discard him or her straight away as a false prophet.  Joseph smith never taught the Sabbath, therefore he is a false prophet.  Muhammed never taught the law either, i.e the sabbath, nor did he teach his followers to observe it, therefore he is a false prophet and so on. Thats even before we get to what they actually said.

Quote
Third, it is incredibly easy for a person to interpret prophecy to suit their whim.  A prophecy that seems false could actually be shown to be true much later on, and a prophecy that seems true could actually end up being false (because people tried to manipulate events to make it come true).  So how do you tell whether it's true or false when someone could come along later and show that a seemingly false prophecy was actually true, and a seemingly true prophecy was actually false?

Bearing in mind the above points, there is a whole host of other criteria as well.  Since most christians and other faiths do not keep the Sabbath, which is part of the Moral Law of God, or the Ten Commandments, then prophecy for them will become very confusing and subjective in nature.  If the prophet does not speak according to the law or the testimony (i.e teach what other biblical prophets teach concerning the law) of other biblical prophets, then he or she is no prophet of God.

Quote
In short, it's practically impossible to tell whether a prophecy was true or false.

I would disagree.  Start by objectively looking at the biblical criteria, teach the law, teach what other biblical prophets teach, etc.. then we can build or close a prophets portfolio based on that... taking into consideration external evidence such as world events.


PS.  A false prophet in terms of Christianity does not have to mean that he got all his prophesies wrong so he's a false prophet, as some false prophets have arguably made predictions which have come true.  However, they never get all right, and often truth is mixed in with error.  Thats why we have to conduct the full test and ask questions such as 'do they teach the law and observe the sabbath?'  Most so-called prophets, fail this test.  Psychics and mediums etc can get things right, but they often get things wrong as well. The key here is fulfilling Biblical criteria.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:22:09 PM by SwordOfGod »
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Online Nam

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #360 on: February 21, 2014, 07:41:28 PM »
Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.
I certainly don't think Nam was clowning or joking around.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but since it was me the comments were made to, I'll be the judge of that.

Garbage. You couldn't answer the questions without the Bible which in of itself proves how unscientific it is because if it's scientific, or true then you can prove everything in it without the Bible.

-Nam

Minor typo invisibly corrected
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« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 08:52:41 PM by Graybeard »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #361 on: February 21, 2014, 08:41:01 PM »
Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.
I certainly don't think Nam was clowning or joking around.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but since it was me the comments were made to, I'll be the judge of that.

Garbage. You couldn't answer the questions without the Bible which in of itself proves how unscientific it is because if it's scientific, or true then you can prove everything in it without the Bible.

-Nam

As above
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« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 08:53:18 PM by Graybeard »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #362 on: February 21, 2014, 08:57:18 PM »
Quote
This all assumes that your belief is actually true.  How do you know this without falling into the trap of circular reasoning?  That is to say, what outside the Bible stands as solid evidence to support only your belief and no other?


First of all, the problem of circular reasoning is often found among scientists: [text displaying a lack of critical thinking deleted]

The standard reply to the above is:

“Science knows it doesn’t know everything, otherwise, it would stop. Just because science doesn’t know everything, it doesn’t mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairytale most appeals to you.” Dara O'Briain

“If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.”

Penn Jillette, God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #363 on: February 21, 2014, 09:47:37 PM »
A '...geologist who has recognized the circularity problem is Dr. Ronald West, at Kansas State University.'

Sorry, I'm not finding any such person.  The only Dr Ronald West I find is a dentist in Nevada.  Are you sure he's real?  It is quite common for creationists to fabricate or invent such quotes out of thin air and attribute them it fictitious people.  Which is weird, because that would in fact be bearing false witness.  And yet it happens all the time. 

Xians.  Go figure.

Edit: nevermind.  The link you gave quotes him from 1968.  1968, dude!  Do you think your dig up something more recent, from a journal that still exists, from a guy who is quoted from saying something - anything - else?  Jeez. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 10:01:44 PM by screwtape »
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #364 on: February 21, 2014, 10:02:15 PM »
The Bible sets forth several characteristics of the true prophet in relationship to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures as we know them:

1. He / she will exalt the true God (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

2. He / she will teach obedience to God's law (2 Chronicles 24:19, 20; Deuteronomy 13:4).

3. He / she will believe and teach that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2, 3).

4. He / she will speak as he is inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).

I would think knowing the characteristics of a true prophet would be of some importance to your religion.  Curious why your god thought it best spread those characteristics out individually across the expanse of the old and new testaments rather than in a concise list in its own book or chapter. 


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #365 on: February 21, 2014, 10:06:00 PM »
A '...geologist who has recognized the circularity problem is Dr. Ronald West, at Kansas State University.'

Sorry, I'm not finding any such person.  The only Dr Ronald West I find is a dentist in Nevada.  Are you sure he's real?  It is quite common for creationists to fabricate or invent such quotes out of thin air and attribute them it fictitious people.  Which is weird, because that would in fact be bearing false witness.  And yet it happens all the time. 

Xians.  Go figure.

Edit: nevermind.  The link you gave quotes him from 1968.  1968, dude!  Do you think your dig up something more recent, from a journal that still exists, from a guy who is quoted from saying something - anything - else?  Jeez.

Edit 2:  more to come.  I was right that creationists lied about this.  SOG, are you prepared to accept this little nugget is wrong?
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #366 on: February 21, 2014, 10:24:26 PM »
Screwtape...

Thanks for your points. Perhaps some of my remarks on post 359 may help answer some of your own concerns below..

Quote
Have you considered that the tests the bible proposes might be... sub-optimal?  That is, they may yield false positives and negatives.  Or what tests might be used from the point of view of a rationalist?
 

I would argue for example, that Adventist theology and by extension, the testing of a prophet, is rationalist, rather than empiricist.  For example, the Mormon Church teaches one can gain knowledge that someone is a true prophet by simply asking God for it and feeling its true in your heart; whats called in Mormon theology a 'Burning in the Bosom' ...literally.  To back this up, they quote James 1:5 that says:

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Of course, one has to read the bible in its whole context, i.e using the other tests of prophet hood, such as Isaiah 8:20.  The problem is that some church denominations, ignore this to "prove" their prophet. Pentecostalism is the same.  For example, they would say, he [the alleged prophet coming to the service that day] has such a powerful message that you can feel the power of God in the room. His message is so 'anointed' they say, that people will experience the power of God and be healed in his presence... which is totally false. i.e the famous Benny Hinn, the modern day Billy Graham. The experiences are subjective, as these same experiences as argued by Adventists, can be experienced by other spiritual religious movements outside of Christianity.

Adventists on the other hand, would say, we focus on all the tests of a prophet in the bible, which is therefore objective because we are not basing our decision on feeling something is true, but weighing up the facts, text with text, including non-Biblical texts and sources to verify everything is meeting the criteria.  This is why even Catholics, who strongly dislike Adventist theology, call Seventh-day Adventists "...The only consistent Protestant' (http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/denominational-statements-on-the-sabbath/id/982/catholic.aspx)


Quote
I ask because the bible was written long before anyone understood how the brain worked, or biases, or anything about epistemology.  Here is the thing: there are 33,000+ sects of xianity.  Many of them have very different interpretations as to what prophesies mean, how they were "fulfilled", whether the were fulfilled, etc. And they all pretty much claim to use the bible as a guide to know real prophets and prophesies from fake ones. 

I would agree with you 100%. I felt the same way as you do.  You can walk into a Christian bookshop and find 101 answers for the same question, with everyone of them telling them 'God told me it was so'   So, even I as an Adventist, will ask the same questions as you.  Thats because I want solid, certain and rational answers to things. Seventh-day Adventism is, in my view, has the most logical concept of knowing and understanding the Bible. I dont mean to be rude to other denominations when i say that they complicate it. For them it IS complicated because they let their emotions decide for them what is true.  For example, they dont want to keep the Sabbath, so they dont use that test of a prophet.  If you take one piece out, it skews all the other answers, just like in maths.  When you get the formula right, it makes perfect sence.  See our timeline as an example, attached.




Source: http://understanding-daniel-revelation.com/images/2300_Days.jpg

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To me, all this confusion indicates that the methods laid out in the bible are...not very good. The results are not reproduceable, as we would say in quality jargon.  That is, you have a process that varies widely when use by different people.  That is a poor process.

The foundations are the tests of a prophet looked at objectively.  For instance, perhaps the best way for a prophet to be tested, is by asking an Atheist to do the tests objectively, based on measurable facts, i.e, did that prophet teach that we must keep the commandment Law?  (i.e, Do not kill, keep the Sabbath day love your neighbor etc), Did he teach what other prophets taught? Did the prophet point out sin? etc etc.. Does the prophet, if it was after Jesus, teach the incarnation of God as it is in the Gospels?  is there any evidence for or against these claims?   That's how we look at it.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #367 on: February 21, 2014, 10:27:49 PM »
A '...geologist who has recognized the circularity problem is Dr. Ronald West, at Kansas State University.'

Sorry, I'm not finding any such person.  The only Dr Ronald West I find is a dentist in Nevada.  Are you sure he's real?  It is quite common for creationists to fabricate or invent such quotes out of thin air and attribute them it fictitious people.  Which is weird, because that would in fact be bearing false witness.  And yet it happens all the time. 

Xians.  Go figure.

Edit: nevermind.  The link you gave quotes him from 1968.  1968, dude!  Do you think your dig up something more recent, from a journal that still exists, from a guy who is quoted from saying something - anything - else?  Jeez.

Edit 2:  more to come.  I was right that creationists lied about this.  SOG, are you prepared to accept this little nugget is wrong?



OK... Just for you screwtape... Im prepared to accept it.. lol BUT Im sure I could find some scientific equivalents for you.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #368 on: February 21, 2014, 11:06:58 PM »
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This all assumes that your belief is actually true.  How do you know this without falling into the trap of circular reasoning?  That is to say, what outside the Bible stands as solid evidence to support only your belief and no other?


First of all, the problem of circular reasoning is often found among scientists: [text displaying a lack of critical thinking deleted]

The standard reply to the above is:

“Science knows it doesn’t know everything, otherwise, it would stop. Just because science doesn’t know everything, it doesn’t mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairytale most appeals to you.” Dara O'Briain

“If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.”

Penn Jillette, God, No!: Signs You May Already Be an Atheist and Other Magical Tales


Your quotes have as much value as;

"Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall... Humpty Dumpty had a great fall" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty)

Science itself has no knowledge of anything. Scientists, differ on who knows what and who can explain this or that. Science is an 'activity', not a knowing entity. God knows everything, including all of science, for he is the source and giver of all we know.

The study of science compliments theological study, but it in no way replaces it, no more than theology replaces science. Objectively studied, both work hand in hand to help us see life as we know it, more clearly.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #369 on: February 21, 2014, 11:17:38 PM »


I am not dodging your reply.  Please accept my apologies if that's how it came across.  I'm just getting used to this forum thing. Would you mind sending me your post again?

Thanks.

It is not often I am "in awe" of a four sentence post on this forum.  This was such an amazing post I immediately went to the thumbs up button to give you a "darwin".  I was not surprised to find that you already achieved 2 "karm's" for this post.  Simply amazing! 

All joking aside, I do not want to re-post my previous posts because I want to save the other members from boredom by reading my posts two times.  The two posts you did not respond to were post #268 (page 10) and post #343 (page 12).  The page counter is either on top of the thread page or on the bottom of the thread page.  Every post is numbered.

I know you have a lot going here and I am no big hurry to get a response.  I just thought it was strange that the only time you responded to me was in response to a post that wasn't even directed at you.  I'm patient though.  No need to apologize and I look forward to your response whenever. 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #370 on: February 21, 2014, 11:22:54 PM »
A '...geologist who has recognized the circularity problem is Dr. Ronald West, at Kansas State University.'

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Sorry, I'm not finding any such person.  The only Dr Ronald West I find is a dentist in Nevada.  Are you sure he's real?  It is quite common for creationists to fabricate or invent such quotes out of thin air and attribute them it fictitious people.  Which is weird, because that would in fact be bearing false witness.  And yet it happens all the time. 

Screwtape... I got a little present for you...

Im afraid Dr Ronald West is a real person lol... you can email him at his university address and verify his quote in person..

 rrwest@k-state.edu

And he is towards the bottom of the university website page.. seeing is believing..  ;D

Source:  http://www.k-state.edu/geology/faculty-staff/

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #371 on: February 21, 2014, 11:26:09 PM »


I am not dodging your reply.  Please accept my apologies if that's how it came across.  I'm just getting used to this forum thing. Would you mind sending me your post again?

Thanks.

It is not often I am "in awe" of a four sentence post on this forum.  This was such an amazing post I immediately went to the thumbs up button to give you a "darwin".  I was not surprised to find that you already achieved 2 "karm's" for this post.  Simply amazing! 

All joking aside, I do not want to re-post my previous posts because I want to save the other members from boredom by reading my posts two times.  The two posts you did not respond to were post #268 (page 10) and post #343 (page 12).  The page counter is either on top of the thread page or on the bottom of the thread page.  Every post is numbered.

I know you have a lot going here and I am no big hurry to get a response.  I just thought it was strange that the only time you responded to me was in response to a post that wasn't even directed at you.  I'm patient though.  No need to apologize and I look forward to your response whenever.


No problemo... I worked out how to navigate around here a bit better now, so seen the post numbering etc, so I will take a look soon and get back to you.

Thanks.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #372 on: February 21, 2014, 11:36:59 PM »
God knows everything, including all of science, for he is the source and giver of all we know.

I'm going to call BS on this.  Leviticus 11:20-23 states:

20 ‘All the winged insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. 21 Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects which walk on all fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth. 22 These of them you may eat: the locust in its kinds, and the devastating locust in its kinds, and the cricket in its kinds, and the grasshopper in its kinds. 23 But all other winged insects which are four-footed are detestable to you.

God does not know everything including all of science.  Science requires observation.  I observe winged insects to be six-footed, not "four-footed" like your alleged omniscient god told humans in his holy book.  If he is the "source and giver of all we know" then why do I know winged insects have six legs and not four. 

In addition, If your god is Jesus, then he does not know everything like you claim.  He was ignorant of the timing of his second coming (Mark 13:32).  Even in his resurrected body in heaven he had to be GIVEN "the Revelation" by his daddy so this implies he does not "know everything".
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #373 on: February 21, 2014, 11:41:21 PM »
The Bible sets forth several characteristics of the true prophet in relationship to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures as we know them:

1. He / she will exalt the true God (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

2. He / she will teach obedience to God's law (2 Chronicles 24:19, 20; Deuteronomy 13:4).

3. He / she will believe and teach that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2, 3).

4. He / she will speak as he is inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).

I would think knowing the characteristics of a true prophet would be of some importance to your religion.  Curious why your god thought it best spread those characteristics out individually across the expanse of the old and new testaments rather than in a concise list in its own book or chapter.

If you look carefully, the first two are in Deuteronomy, the book of the Law.  Other books have reference to this as well which serve as reminders to that. All prophets should teach the law (Is 8:20), then, as the messiah had come, true prophets now had to teach that in the NT to be consistent with the continued revelation and fulfilled prophecy of that time, ie, such as Isaiah 53, concerning the Messiah.  Revelation is progressive as stated before.
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #374 on: February 22, 2014, 12:25:59 AM »
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I'm going to call BS on this.  Leviticus 11:20-23 states:

20 ‘All the winged insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. 21 Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects which walk on all fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth. 22 These of them you may eat: the locust in its kinds, and the devastating locust in its kinds, and the cricket in its kinds, and the grasshopper in its kinds. 23 But all other winged insects which are four-footed are detestable to you.


Lets look at the original Hebrew and what it actually says in Leviticus 11:20 - the key verse here:

 The hebrew Translated is:

All winged swarming things that go upon all fours are a detestable thing unto you.

Source: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0311.htm Hebrew Bible

Taking the class of all creatures which fly, but which walk on four legs, we understand that God isn't talking about birds (they fly, but have two legs), so He is discussing what we call "insects" today. Yes, insects have six legs, but flying insects have four legs for walking and two other legs which are specialized. A fly, when it walks, uses its back four legs and the front legs are used to bring things up to its head. A grasshopper walks on its front four legs and the back legs are specialized for leaping -- they aren't generally used for walking. The Israelites were allowed to eat leaping, flying insects which were identified by their rear legs being much larger than the four walking legs. (http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2011/08-15c.html)


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God does not know everything including all of science.  Science requires observation.  I observe winged insects to be six-footed, not "four-footed" like your alleged omniscient god told humans in his holy book.  If he is the "source and giver of all we know" then why do I know winged insects have six legs and not four. 

....because you make no distinction as to what legs are used for. The passage in Leviticus does (see v 21 & 22 above). Therefore God is correct here and you have not known this fact, as is evident from your incomplete response. This is an example of when religion fills in the gaps human so-called 'common sense' conveniently forgets.  It is also an example of when religion compliments science with facts.

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In addition, If your god is Jesus, then he does not know everything like you claim.  He was ignorant of the timing of his second coming (Mark 13:32).  Even in his resurrected body in heaven he had to be GIVEN "the Revelation" by his daddy so this implies he does not "know everything".

Its called the Hypostatic Union. During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power.  This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7).  This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven?  Why?  Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.  This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human.  That is why He said He didn't know the day or hour of His return.

However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20).  Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things.


Source: http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/if-jesus-god-why-did-he-not-know-hour-his-return

Our Father God in heaven knows all.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 12:27:46 AM by SwordOfGod »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #375 on: February 22, 2014, 01:55:02 AM »
Andy,

I'm still waiting on him to answer questions. Instead he gives "Fail" videos. I'm not asking for much. Just for him to prove anything he's stated about the Bible, including things he's listed, as being scientific and to prove that any of the people or situations in it actually happened without using the Bible as evidence, or books that use the Bible as their main evidence.

If the Bible is a book of science it should be easy to prove. Apparently only "fail" videos is his proof.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #376 on: February 22, 2014, 02:21:30 AM »
A grasshopper walks on its front four legs and the back legs are specialized for leaping -- they aren't generally used for walking.

Funny.  Your god, not science, has given us humans this great tool called Youtube to prove to a christian on an atheist forum that the christian is wrong.

 


I'll get back to you on your other claims later.  I'm going away for a one day/night vacation.  I'm going to read the whole bible again cover to cover and try to find the phrase "Hypostatic Union".  It seems to be an important doctrine so I'm sure I'll find these words in the bible right?  You know -- like the word "Trinity" which is such an essential doctrine to the Christian faith.  Anyway, I'm going to meditate on every verse that has the phrase "Hypostatic Union" in it and I will get back to you.   
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)