Author Topic: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?  (Read 13852 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #319 on: February 20, 2014, 08:26:25 PM »
I propose a game that may prove rather educational and relevant to the current topic of discussion.

SwordOfGod, give us an example of a false prophecy.  From the bible or any other text or wherever, but pick a prophecy that you consider is false and can be demonstrated as false (i.e. a prophecy that had predicated or described an event that has already happened but was written prior to said event).

I would guess that, collectively, we could create an interpretation of the state of events of the world that satisfy the fulfillment of that prophesy with...say, a 90% success rate.

Would you like to play a game?
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #320 on: February 20, 2014, 10:02:28 PM »


The problem is, that the supposed prophecies are so incredibly vague, that like psychic readings or Rorshach tests, you can make them mean almost anything. There are lots of powerful kingdoms, and they rise and fall and defeat each other. That is not prophetic. That is history.

"Next year two powerful lions, one black and one white, will fight each other and one will die while the other emerges victorious."

See how easy it is? I just made a prophecy. This time next year we will no doubt discover that it came true! But only, after the fact, we will realize that the "lions" are not literal lions at all, but actually two baseball teams in the World Series. Or two movies with lions in them up for the Oscars. Or Burger King and McDonald's. Or a hurricane that hits Florida. Or the SDA church vs the JW's. Or the two presidential nominees on the Republican ticket.

To be a real prophecy, it has to be specific, detailed, contain information not known at the time, and should only have one meaning. If should not be open to many different interpretations, based on changing cultural values.

Nowhere in the bible or any other ancient text does it say, "There will be in the 20th century, a country called the United States of America, and it will be the most powerful land in the world for about 100 years, then another country with far more people called China will take over."

There are NO references to incidents in China, the US, the Americas, England, Russia or South Africa in the bible at all. No references to pandas, kangaroos, polar bears, penguins or llamas, either. No references to any of the important discoveries, inventions, medical advances. No, "Relax, we will someday find a cure for leprosy and it will not be bird's blood. People will be able to fly in giant air ships across the oceans in a few hours. Women won't have to give birth in pain because of medicine. And gay people will turn out to be really cool." 

Why not? Because the people back then in the Middle East did not know that any of those things would happen.

So, to say that a particular vague passage about a small country and a big country and a bronze something and a kingdom has any specific meaning, you have to fill in a lot of blanks with stuff that only makes sense in retrospect. That hardly counts as a prophecy.

Countries and wordings have changed over time.  The silence on a subject, does not prove that it was not known. However, a closer look will prove otherwise. In brief, here are some points to consider.

1. The Land of Sinim = China - http://www.adventistonline.com/group/chineseadventistsaroundtheworld/forum/topics/china-in-bible-prophecy

a) Surely these shall come from afar; Look, those from the north and the west; And these from the land of Sinim. (Isaiah 49: 12)
b) About the land of Sinim, God says "Your walls are continually before Me.” (Isaiah 49: 15 - 16).

2. America is described as the "Image of the Beast" which is "coming up out of the earth" towards the end of the age. (Revelation 13:11) See previous post on the Catholic Church being the Beast - Antichrist power of Rome.

"Revelation 13:11 ...'and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.' ... This nation rises with "lamb like" features. Christ Jesus as we know is the true Lamb, so this new kingdom would be "Christ-like" and be based upon Christian principles. Now if you take a look at Revelation 12, you will find a woman, a symbol of God's true church, being persecuted by the dragon, a symbol of Satan and the nation of Rome. This persecution comes from the Roman Catholic Church during the 1260 years that it reigned between 538 - 1798. It says in verse 16 that the earth helped the woman escape from the persecution and false teachings of the Papal Church. This is another reference to the new nation of America where Christians fled to find religious freedom away from the Roman Catholic Church.

Interesting Note: The original name of the area upon which we find Capitol Hill today in Washington DC, was ROME. Any wonder why the Capitol Hill building looks just like the Vatican?" See link http://endrtimes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/rome-mary-land-usa.html  It really is "an image" of the beast just as the Bible said it would be.

Source for point 2 http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/america-bible-prophecy.html

3.  I could go on about all the other countries, but if these points above do not challenge your current trail of thought, then maybe we can come back to it.

4.  As for the prophecy examples you give, these are just red herrings. Biblical prophecy is unique in that all true prophets are tested according to the biblical standard... all of which other so-called prophets, failed, hence why we reject them. The Bible does say false prophets may give true prophesies as some are easier to make than others, but they are to be tested  according to the Spirit of God and His standard, not mans waffle.





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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #321 on: February 20, 2014, 10:06:25 PM »
I propose a game that may prove rather educational and relevant to the current topic of discussion.

SwordOfGod, give us an example of a false prophecy.  From the bible or any other text or wherever, but pick a prophecy that you consider is false and can be demonstrated as false (i.e. a prophecy that had predicated or described an event that has already happened but was written prior to said event).

I would guess that, collectively, we could create an interpretation of the state of events of the world that satisfy the fulfillment of that prophesy with...say, a 90% success rate.

Would you like to play a game?





Sure why not lol.
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #322 on: February 20, 2014, 10:18:52 PM »
I propose a game that may prove rather educational and relevant to the current topic of discussion.

SwordOfGod, give us an example of a false prophecy.  From the bible or any other text or wherever, but pick a prophecy that you consider is false and can be demonstrated as false (i.e. a prophecy that had predicated or described an event that has already happened but was written prior to said event).

I would guess that, collectively, we could create an interpretation of the state of events of the world that satisfy the fulfillment of that prophesy with...say, a 90% success rate.

Would you like to play a game?


Im looking forward to this game hehehe.

here is an example of a false prophet; a man called Gerald Coates.  Before you start googling who he is, here is the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Coates

Basically, he is one of the pioneers of a very popular mainstream Christian fundamentalist Charasmatic / Pentecostal church movement.  I used to be in their church  until I came to the Seventh-day Adventists.

Here is his so-called 'prophecy';

I wonder Dr. Kendall if you could come here please.
God has put such a deep concern - the seed in your heart for that place of Westminster. Not just the Chapel but for all of those that live in it - within its shadow. I see that God has narrowed you down and narrowed you down and narrowed you down and the cry has gone up so long as you walk the streets on a Saturday morning, as you've been at home in your apartment - 'How long, how long, how long, how long, how long, how long?' God has continued to narrow you down and narrow you down and narrow you down. He's beginning to take away everything that you thought you could trust in, all the things that were safe, but the Spirit of the Lord is upon you. The Spirit of the Lord will come upon you in increasing power, but you need to understand that over these next eighteen months although many attacks will come, that if you are faithful to God, faithful to all that He's taught you, faithful to your brothers and not seek to achieve in human strength what only God can achieve by His Holy Spirit, in eighteen months from this month, in eighteen months from April 1995 your church, Westminster Chapel, will be unrecognisable, completely utterly and totally unrecognisable. And as you walk with your God and allow Him to narrow you down and narrow you down, you will indeed become a man of great laughter and many tears, and as a result of that humility that God will bring about your attempts to bring about the things that you long to see will diminish and the Holy Spirit will increase in power. In eighteen months, in eighteen months, in eighteen months, in eighteen months the Spirit of God - not just upon Westminster Chapel, but upon Westminster itself, upon the high of the land, upon many who live in that area, is going to come on that place and many of your prayers - taxi drivers would get out of their taxis because the Spirit of God is so strong in that place - you're going to see them fulfilled. And it will come from the most unlikely sources, it will not come through the people you would like it to be through, it'll come through the most unlikely sources. And if you keep your heart and your eyes open the Spirit of God is going to surprise us all. The Spirit of God is going to surprise us all. I ask, Lord, for my friend Dr. Kendall, that You will fill him with Your Holy Spirit from the top of his head to the toes of his feet, fill with the presence of God, saturated and learning to carry that presence in his heart and his mind, in Jesus' Name.


Source: http://www.e-n.org.uk/p-473-False-prophecy-today.htm

PS.  I do not have the views of the link above, it is not Adventist.  However, I use the link to highlight an example of false prophecy.

Let the games begin!
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Offline voodoo child

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #323 on: February 20, 2014, 11:05:44 PM »
Im looking forward to this game hehehe.

Another case of Pareidolia, this has been played before you were born.
But if you are game… Jesus was a made up person I do not think he ever existed.
Prove to me/us otherwise.

you never answered my question... although it was irrelevant to this op.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #324 on: February 20, 2014, 11:16:31 PM »
Im looking forward to this game hehehe.

Another case of Pareidolia, this has been played before you were born.
But if you are game… Jesus was a made up person I do not think he ever existed.
Prove to me/us otherwise.

you never answered my question... although it was irrelevant to this op.

No intelligent student of truth seeking would deny the existence of Jesus. Only the deceived with a false set premise in mind would proclaim such lies from the pit of hell.  The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.



"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #325 on: February 20, 2014, 11:26:45 PM »

 The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.

I am sorry I don't understand woo woo.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #326 on: February 21, 2014, 01:57:02 AM »
As promised, SwordOfGod et al., I found some material that analyzes the Isaiah prophesy controversy:  Authorship of Isaiah by Gleason L. Archer.

In addition to suggesting that the Cyrus chapters are later additions, this essay also puts forth an interesting hypothesis:  That there may have been a "school" of students of Isaiah that maintained and added to the scripture:

Quote
Some more recent scholars, such as W. H. Brownlee, are coming to the view that the entire Isaianic corpus of sixty-six chapters betrays such strong evidences of unity as to suggest an orderly and systematic arrangement by one or more adherents of a so-called Isaianic School. According to this position, a circle of disciples treasured a recollection of the eighth-century prophet’s utterances and then gradually added to them with each successive generation until finally an able practitioner of this school, living possibly in the third century, reworked the entire body of material into a well-ordered literary masterpiece.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #327 on: February 21, 2014, 07:24:49 AM »
.....in eighteen months from this month, in eighteen months from April 1995 your church, Westminster Chapel, will be unrecognisable, completely utterly and totally unrecognisable. .....taxi drivers would get out of their taxis because the Spirit of God is so strong in that place - you're going to see them fulfilled.

Interesting.  How does that meet your definition of a prophecy that you gave here?

No, we know when a prophecy is a prophecy.  We just dont know the full meaning of it until its fulfillment.. hence the word 'ful-fill-ment.'

As explained above, we may have an idea what it means, but we will not know exactly how untill it is fulfilled and we see the event.

Your definition of a "false prophecy" is specific and definite, and so far as I can see gives an exact and measurable prediction that can be agreed upon before the fulfilment.

In other words, your definition of "prophecy" is self-fulfilling.  Or can you give an example of a statement that was agreed before the event was a definite prophecy, but later found out not to be?  If you cannot, then there surely is no such thing as an "unfulfilled prophecy"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #328 on: February 21, 2014, 08:12:33 AM »

 The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.

I am sorry I don't understand woo woo.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them woo woo.

Source:  Holy Bible, the best book on earth.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #329 on: February 21, 2014, 08:38:19 AM »

 The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.

I am sorry I don't understand woo woo.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them woo woo.

Source:  Holy Bible, the best book on earth.

When you source something, such as from the Bible, you give chapter and verse as well as the book. See, this is done with other books: people name the book, the chapter and sometimes the page you find it on.

You're arguing with skilled debaters; if you want a chance at actually winning an argument I suggest you learn the basic rules of debate, and also learn quoting an extremely biased book as the Bible will get you nowhere.

FYI.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #330 on: February 21, 2014, 08:59:04 AM »
Source:  Holy Bible, the best book on earth.

My personal shortlist for Best Book on Earth has Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in the top spot, with honourable mention to Good Omens;D
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #331 on: February 21, 2014, 09:23:14 AM »
Underline indicates previous post comments.


".....in eighteen months from this month, in eighteen months from April 1995 your church, Westminster Chapel, will be unrecognisable, completely utterly and totally unrecognisable. .....taxi drivers would get out of their taxis because the Spirit of God is so strong in that place - you're going to see them fulfilled."


Quote
Interesting.  How does that meet your definition of a prophecy that you gave here?

It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms. 


"No, we know when a prophecy is a prophecy.  We just dont know the full meaning of it until its fulfillment.. hence the word 'ful-fill-ment.'

As explained above, we may have an idea what it means, but we will not know exactly how untill it is fulfilled and we see the event."


Quote
Your definition of a "false prophecy" is specific and definite, and so far as I can see gives an exact and measurable prediction that can be agreed upon before the fulfilment.

I quote a false prophecy.  True prophecies can also be specific and definite, however, as explained before, we know in part, not in full until the 'ful-fill-ment' when we get all the understnading.  In this case, the King of babylon, knew some of the details, what to expect, but he did not know who the 3rd and 4th kinsdoms would be, he just knew they, whoever they are, would come.  The king of Babylon believed his kingdom would last forever so he built the image he saw in his dream all in Gold, signifying that babylon would rule forever and not accept defeat from other invading kingdoms.  As we know, Babylon was crushed to smithereens and it was indeed taken over by the Medes and the persians as God said through Daniel to the King. See the proof from the Prophet Daniel 2:31 below:

"Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36“This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39“After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
[/b][/i]"

"PERES; Thy kingdom has been broken and is given to the Medes and Persians". Daniel 5:28

Daniel is very specific in his prophecy.  He says to the King of Babylon YOU ARE THE HEAD OF GOLD, i.e Babylon.  Bold indicates few of the specific details of all the kingdoms that followed in that dream. Rome was divided in two as a historical fact in 395 (see source below) Rome was depicted as the 2 legs of iron in the dream and the Roman kingdom then became subdivided into ten kingdoms signified by the feet with ten toes, partly of iron, partly of clay, showing its weakness.

First division of Rome in 395 by Theodosius 1 see source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire

And then, the divided Roman empire became subdived into ten kingdoms, just as daniel said represented by the toes.


1. Alemanni - Germany.   
2. Visigoths - Spain.
3. Franks - France.   
4. Anglo-Saxons - England.
5. Burgundians - Switzerland.   
6. Ostrogoths - Exterminated.
7. Suevi - Portugal.   
8. Lombards - Italy.
9. Vandals - Exterminated.   
10. Heruli - Exterminated.

Source: http://www.danielbibleprophecy.org/ten_divisions_of_rome.html

Futhermore, verse 43 of daniel 2, states that there would be a diverse people who would not remain united in Europe, even though governments try to go against the Bible by uniting the nations, with a European union.  It will not work, for the people will not remain united, even though political leaders try.  Napoleon tried it, Mousillini tried it, Hitler tried it and the EU have tried it.  All have failed. You only have to look in the news about racism and riots to show how people are not united.


Quote
In other words, your definition of "prophecy" is self-fulfilling.  Or can you give an example of a statement that was agreed before the event was a definite prophecy, but later found out not to be?  If you cannot, then there surely is no such thing as an "unfulfilled prophecy"?

The above prophecy from Gerald coats failed.  It was specific, agreed upon before the supposed event, but never came to pass. On the other hand, Daniel said who would rule, and he was correct.  However, a prophet can only be accepted as a prophet on certain grounds, not just fulfilled prophesies alone.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #332 on: February 21, 2014, 09:27:45 AM »
Quote from: SwordofGod
It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms.

There's nothing "scientific" in the Bible.

For the rest: show evidence outside the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source that the rest of what you state ever happened, or the people ever existed.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #333 on: February 21, 2014, 09:29:56 AM »

 The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.

I am sorry I don't understand woo woo.


For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them woo woo.

Source:  Holy Bible, the best book on earth.

When you source something, such as from the Bible, you give chapter and verse as well as the book. See, this is done with other books: people name the book, the chapter and sometimes the page you find it on.

You're arguing with skilled debaters; if you want a chance at actually winning an argument I suggest you learn the basic rules of debate, and also learn quoting an extremely biased book as the Bible will get you nowhere.

FYI.

-Nam

Where's your source?  You cant just make up claims about people being skilled debaters without having any proof. So Ill dismiss that comment as baseless twaddle until you come up with some sort of evidence of skill for all the debaters you speak for on this forum.

I suggest you keep waffle to yourself unless you have any proof to back it up.

Tick tock tick tock...


"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #334 on: February 21, 2014, 09:35:04 AM »
Quote from: SwordofGod
It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms.

There's nothing "scientific" in the Bible.

For the rest: show evidence outside the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source that the rest of what you state ever happened, or the people ever existed.

-Nam


Your sweeping (incorrect) statements are boring. There's nothing scientific in your statement either.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #335 on: February 21, 2014, 09:43:17 AM »
Quote from: SwordofGod
It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms.

There's nothing "scientific" in the Bible.

For the rest: show evidence outside the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source that the rest of what you state ever happened, or the people ever existed.

-Nam


Your sweeping (incorrect) statements are boring. There's nothing scientific in your statement either.

Is that a dodge? Did I say anything or even imply anything in my comment to you was "scientific"? If what you state is true, about the Bible having scientific merit then show me without using the Bible or any book that uses the Bible as its main source.

Ditto on the first request of what I state above.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #336 on: February 21, 2014, 09:44:00 AM »
I quote a false prophecy.  True prophecies can also be specific and definite, however, as explained before, we know in part, not in full until the 'ful-fill-ment' when we get all the understnading. 

So to summarise:

1) A prophecy is only a true prophecy when it is recognised as such after the fact.
2) A statement cannot be reliably identified as likely to be a prophecy before the fact.

If I've got those right, is there any way in which a believer can "lose" the prophecy game?  Statements are either prophecies (when they come true) or false prophecies (when they do not), and you can claim a 100% success rate on your definition.

Feel free to dispute that - but to do so, you would need to detail something identified as a prophecy that did NOT come true.  And by your definition that is impossible.

Can you even come up with something that most people agreed appeared to be likely to be a prophecy, but later was proved false?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #337 on: February 21, 2014, 09:45:14 AM »
No intelligent student of truth seeking would deny the existence of Jesus. Only the deceived with a false set premise in mind would proclaim such lies from the pit of hell.  The devil is the Father of Lies and his children follow him to perdition. Do not be deceived.
Are you sure that you're not the one being deceived?

It's really easy to make something bad look good, and something good look bad, in a story.  And when you get right down to it, YHWH is a pretty mean and vindictive god, not to mention being unable to hit the broadside of a barn (the great flood hit the entire world, and he nuked an entire valley to get Sodom and Gomorrah).  Almost makes me wonder if he's myopic or something.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #338 on: February 21, 2014, 09:50:56 AM »
It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms.
How do you know the biblical standard is any more reliable than any other standard one might choose for what is a prophecy?  I mean, when you get right down to it, people have had access to the Bible and the supposed prophecies contained therein for millennia.  It would not have been difficult at all to make the prophecies of the old testament seem to come true by inventing a character named Jesus who could easily fulfill them since he was no more real than, say, Luke Skywalker., thus making it look like their religion was true.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #339 on: February 21, 2014, 10:33:07 AM »
I find prophecies akin to the Witch doctors wife throwing chicken bones across the table.   



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The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #340 on: February 21, 2014, 11:02:38 AM »
Quote from: SwordofGod
It meets the definition of a false prophecy.  A prophecy spoken, must be tested by the Biblical standard of who is a 'prophet'.  The Bible is the only 'acid test' to put it in scientific terms.

There's nothing "scientific" in the Bible.

For the rest: show evidence outside the Bible that doesn't use the Bible as its main source that the rest of what you state ever happened, or the people ever existed.

-Nam

Nam.....

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #341 on: February 21, 2014, 11:05:29 AM »
^So, SwordofGod, are you admitting that you have no such evidence?

Posting a Youtube video with the words "our survey said ... fail" rather strongly implies that you don't, since if you did, you wouldn't hesitate to post it.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #342 on: February 21, 2014, 11:20:01 AM »
A 2 second video that is an opinion based on some unknown survey[1] is your evidence?

You failed, not me. If I made claims as you do, I'd back them up.

-Nam
 1. unless the video is sarcasm, which I'm thinking it is
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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #343 on: February 21, 2014, 11:25:40 AM »
Hey S.O.G., I was wondering how you can say other Christian churches "deviate from historical Christianity" by eating Pork and worshiping on Sunday when Paul seems to be saying these things are okay in Romans 14.  You might think it is wrong to eat Pork and worship on Sunday but listen to what Paul says, "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean to him it is unclean" (v. 14).  So it is okay to say FOR YOURSELF that eating pork is wrong but you can't say other Christian Churches are "deviating from historical Christianity".  Paul also says people "must be fully convinced IN HIS OWN MIND" as to which day to "observe" (v. 5,6).  If you ask me, the SDA's are diverting from historical Christianity.  Actually, that might not be totally correct.  I would say the SDA's are diverting from historical PAULinity.       

2. America is described as the "Image of the Beast" which is "coming up out of the earth" towards the end of the age. (Revelation 13:11) See previous post on the Catholic Church being the Beast - Antichrist power of Rome.

Now I think you are a victim of this disease called "SDA brainwashing".  America is described as the "Image of the Beast"???  And you get that out of Rev. 13:11.  Okay, let's keep reading...."He (America) exercises all the authority of the first beast (Roman Catholic Church) in his presence.  And he (America) makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast (Roman Catholic Church) whose fatal wound has been healed".  When has America made the whole earth worship the Roman Catholic Church?  Please respond by saying, "It hasn't happened yet but it will happen" because I need a good laugh today.

Continuing in Rev. 13 verse 13 it states, "He (America) performs great signs, so that he (America) makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men".  WOW!  Maybe the other beast is America!  America does make fireworks "come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men" on the forth of July.  Prophecy fulfilled!!! ;D


It says in verse 16 that the earth helped the woman escape from the persecution and false teachings of the Papal Church. This is another reference to the new nation of America where Christians fled to find religious freedom away from the Roman Catholic Church.

Where does it say in Rev. 12:16 that "the earth helped the woman escape from the persecution and false teachings of the Papal Church"?  I know you got in trouble for plagiarizing earlier but if it is going to be anything to plagiarize, please plagiarize the bible.  Don't just add to the bible and put words in a verse that cannot be found.  I really think you are a victim of SDA brainwashing.

Just to let you know, you are adding to a verse in Revelation and Revelation 22:18 says, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city...".

I'm worried for you S.O.G.!

The Bible does say false prophets may give true prophesies as some are easier to make than others, but they are to be tested  according to the Spirit of God and His standard, not mans waffle.

I don't think the bible says "false prophets may give true prophesies".  Instead, the bible says just the opposite.  Deut. 18:22 says, " When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him".  I would not be surprised if I was to find a verse in the bible that contradicts this.  What verse are you pulling from to say "false prophets may give true prophesies"???

Maybe I can learn something from you today.  I am unaware of this claim in the bible.  I do know that false prophets give false prophesies.  You know, like Jesus prophesying all the signs accompanying his return, and his second coming, would happen in the generation of his followers (Mark 13:30).
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #344 on: February 21, 2014, 11:39:26 AM »
I quote a false prophecy.  True prophecies can also be specific and definite, however, as explained before, we know in part, not in full until the 'ful-fill-ment' when we get all the understnading. 

So to summarise:

1) A prophecy is only a true prophecy when it is recognised as such after the fact.
2) A statement cannot be reliably identified as likely to be a prophecy before the fact.

If I've got those right, is there any way in which a believer can "lose" the prophecy game?  Statements are either prophecies (when they come true) or false prophecies (when they do not), and you can claim a 100% success rate on your definition.

Feel free to dispute that - but to do so, you would need to detail something identified as a prophecy that did NOT come true.  And by your definition that is impossible.

Can you even come up with something that most people agreed appeared to be likely to be a prophecy, but later was proved false?

In response to point 1) A true prophecy is assessed based on the bibles 'acid test', not when it is simply recognized after the fact.

The Bible sets forth several characteristics of the true prophet in relationship to the law and the prophets, or the Scriptures as we know them:

1. He / she will exalt the true God (Deuteronomy 13:1-4).

2. He / she will teach obedience to God's law (2 Chronicles 24:19, 20; Deuteronomy 13:4).

3. He / she will believe and teach that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:2, 3).

4. He / she will speak as he is inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).

Source: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/bhp/bhpc06.html

So, prophet Joseph Smith from the Mormon church for example, would not be classified as a true prophet, since he did not teach the law of God according to the test of true prophethood, and many other things he failed on.

testing of prophesies is not an internal test, or a subjective one.  It is an external, objective test. This is the method of Seventh-day Adventist Christians.

In response to point 2)  A statement is a [true / false] prophecy by definition if one claims something is going to happen in the future, and that they say or claim God has told them it would happen and that these words were not their own.  A prophet should never claim they are his / her own words, but that they are speaking on behalf of God Himself, because God has directed them to do so. 

Deuteronomy 18:21-22, "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

The true Prophet of the Lord predicts that which does come to pass. If the Prophet's predictions fail, they are exposed as NOT of God.


 Source: http://www.remnantofgod.org/Trueprophets.htm


An honest answer to your question is that a believer can lose the prophecy game if he believes in a false prophet.  I have to admit, I have lost this game before when listening to anyone who claimed to know something about the future as a Christian self styled prophet of God, such as Gerald Coates who I had direct contact with, and who prophesied over my family and I in 1992.  Thats why I left the fundamentalist Christian movement, and became a Seventh-day Adventist.  The tests of prophethood here are applied thoroughly, which is what gives us 100% confidence in them.  No one in our church makes prophesies today.  The word of God is alone is enough. 


"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #345 on: February 21, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »

 
I'll just label you a stupid fool who is not only deceived by the devil, but on a road to hell with no chance at all.


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)


3. Don't quote bible at me.  I'm immune to it.  It is like shooting bullets at Superman.  Only, I quote back:


Interesting! I never thought the bible had bullets.  I have had many Christians tell me I'm "on a road to hell" too.  They hold up their bibles like a gun and tell me I'm going to hell.  I just tell them their gun isn't loaded.  I have yet to see any bullets.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #346 on: February 21, 2014, 11:43:25 AM »
A 2 second video that is an opinion based on some unknown survey[1] is your evidence?

You failed, not me. If I made claims as you do, I'd back them up.

-Nam
 1. unless the video is sarcasm, which I'm thinking it is

Ra ha ha ha ha!

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #347 on: February 21, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »
^So, SwordofGod, are you admitting that you have no such evidence?

Posting a Youtube video with the words "our survey said ... fail" rather strongly implies that you don't, since if you did, you wouldn't hesitate to post it.

Clowns get a jokers response.  Questions that are worth giving a decent response to, I reply to as best I can.
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)