Author Topic: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?  (Read 19337 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #290 on: February 20, 2014, 12:40:25 PM »
I have got facts checked and they are sourced.  I am not the inventor of Adventism, so I do not speak something new, but about something which has been said millions of times before, so its very probable that millions of other people have written about it online and we might actually say the same thing word for word in places.

However, I can assure you, my posts ARE sourced as can be seen previously by all here. My writings are NOT 100% plagiarized as you make out and I say that as an honest person defending the faith.

Word for word. I found the above WORD FOR WORD at about 20 websites. Please, just admit you plagiarized and/or copy/pasted, and then don't do it again.

Stop making excuses.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nam

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #291 on: February 20, 2014, 12:43:00 PM »
As stated, that is not a copy and paste as you claim. 

Bold is yours:

Quote
Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

You lose.

-Nam
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:44:45 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #292 on: February 20, 2014, 12:49:38 PM »
Then copy and paste the said article here with the link.

Its not a copy and paste word for word as you claim.

Here is my response:

Quote
Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Now show me the word for word copy and paste next to mine.


"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #293 on: February 20, 2014, 12:55:00 PM »
Then copy and paste the said article here with the link.

Its not a copy and paste word for word as you claim.

Here is my response:

Quote
Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Now show me the word for word copy and paste next to mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology#Antichrist

It's not 'word-for-word'.  But it's high school word for word - that is, if I were a lazy high school student trying to get away with plagiary, and were not really good at it, I'd make around the same number of word changes and additions.
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #294 on: February 20, 2014, 12:57:52 PM »
Then copy and paste the said article here with the link.

Its not a copy and paste word for word as you claim.

Here is my response:

Quote
Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Now show me the word for word copy and paste next to mine.

Nam.... tick tock tick tock.... Im waiting for this word for word copy and paste.

 

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #295 on: February 20, 2014, 12:59:08 PM »


c)  The little horn power is identified as:

                                                 A Little horn      -      The Vatican is a little country
<snip>
It ruled for 1260 years  Dan 7:25                     -       The Catholic Church reigned between 538AD - 1798AD


I am in no academic position too enter into this discussion, but I have a quick question, Sword.  How does your recently formed religion and this specific look at Catholicism excuse away the statement that the Catholic Church ruled between 538 and 1798, but it did not (the Vatican) become a country until 1929. Wouldn't their failure to overlap chronologically kind of put a crimp in at leafs one of those claims?

Or is it just a case that as long as all those prophecies happen, it doesn't matter in what order?

Edit: Fixed bad edit in the original.

Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Thank you. That answered my question. As an atheist, I'm obviously not impressed, but at least someone is paying attention to the details.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #296 on: February 20, 2014, 01:03:38 PM »
Then copy and paste the said article here with the link.

Its not a copy and paste word for word as you claim.

Here is my response:

Quote
Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Now show me the word for word copy and paste next to mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology#Antichrist

It's not 'word-for-word'.  But it's high school word for word - that is, if I were a lazy high school student trying to get away with plagiary, and were not really good at it, I'd make around the same number of word changes and additions.

Have a go if you will. My so called 'copy and paste', leaves half of that you've quoted out of it, and my post includes the main points all SDAs agree on from the site you point to. These are the facts.

Nam could not find a word for word copy and paste, as was his stupid claim. All you found is points which we believe, but not a direct copy and paste.


 

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #297 on: February 20, 2014, 01:15:22 PM »
Have a go if you will. My so called 'copy and paste', leaves half of that you've quoted out of it, and my post includes the main points all SDAs agree on from the site you point to. These are the facts.

And that's fine.  But there is certainly a part of your post that you really should have made a citation to the Wikipedia article.

Quote
Nam could not find a word for word copy and paste, as was his stupid claim. All you found is points which we believe, but not a direct copy and paste.

And it seriously looks like you copied parts of those texts and made a couple of minor textual additions.  That is something that one would expect a citation for, that's all.

You would be wise to just concede.  If you don't, that means that you and all the other SDAs are really good at rote memorization but that you haven't necessarily internalized what the claims actually mean.  If you guys respond with essentially the same text[1] to questions like this, it doesn't go a real long way in proving that you and your peers have really thought about it at all.

Note that I am not at the point of accusing you of being a robot merely repeating claims you've heard without actually giving those claims any thought.  But your refusal to acknowledge what appears to be a very blatant copy-paste job isn't helping me or anyone else not lean towards that conclusion.  Just admit that you copied and pasted some of that text from Wikipedia (or adventnews.org or wherever) and be done with it.  There's nothing wrong with the copy/paste job.  But being stubborn about it is nothing but detrimental to your case.
 1. Note I say the text and not the content.  I would expect the content to be very similar.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #298 on: February 20, 2014, 01:15:55 PM »
SOG,

My use of green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not as a participant in the discussion.  Please do not respond to this post in thread.  If you have questions about the moderation I am giving, please us the PM system.

When you use other sources, please make it apparent that you are doing so and please provide the reference.  It does appear that you copied parts of your posts directly from wikipedia.  That is considered plagiarism and it is not allowed here. 

Bole mine:


Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798) but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology#Antichrist
Quote
In 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is taken as a fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast of Revelation would receive a deadly wound but that the wound would be healed. Adventists have attributed the wounding and resurgence in Revelation 13:3 to the papacy, referring to General Louis Berthier's capture of Pope Pius VI in 1798 and the pope's subsequent death in 1799.

Also, while lying about it is not specifically forbidden in the forum rules, it is bad form.  Not to mention, it breaks one of your 10 commandments.

My advice to you is to take a little break.  Go have a glass of water.  Then come back later with a better attitude and more honorable behavior.  I mean that in the best possible way. 


Everyone else,

If you are not a moderator, please do not engage in "vigilante moderation" in-thread.  It is off topic and derails the thread.

thank you. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 01:17:43 PM by screwtape »
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #299 on: February 20, 2014, 01:16:53 PM »
As stated, that is not a copy and paste as you claim.
I suppose the Miracle of The Coincidental Wording could be to blame, but, at #274, I found fit to attribute the quote that you did not. : )
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #300 on: February 20, 2014, 01:38:25 PM »
off topic comments removed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:01:13 PM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #301 on: February 20, 2014, 01:41:14 PM »
off topic comments removed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:00:46 PM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #302 on: February 20, 2014, 01:44:30 PM »
off topic comments removed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:00:29 PM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #303 on: February 20, 2014, 01:58:42 PM »
off topic comments removed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:00:09 PM by screwtape »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #304 on: February 20, 2014, 01:59:33 PM »
Which part of "Please do not respond to this post in thread" did you not understand?
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #305 on: February 20, 2014, 02:18:37 PM »


c)  The little horn power is identified as:

                                                 A Little horn      -      The Vatican is a little country
<snip>
It ruled for 1260 years  Dan 7:25                     -       The Catholic Church reigned between 538AD - 1798AD


I am in no academic position too enter into this discussion, but I have a quick question, Sword.  How does your recently formed religion and this specific look at Catholicism excuse away the statement that the Catholic Church ruled between 538 and 1798, but it did not (the Vatican) become a country until 1929. Wouldn't their failure to overlap chronologically kind of put a crimp in at leafs one of those claims?

Or is it just a case that as long as all those prophecies happen, it doesn't matter in what order?

Edit: Fixed bad edit in the original.

Glad you asked that question! SDAs teach that in 1798, the French General Berthier exiled the Pope and took away all his authority, which was later restored in 1929. This is the fulfillment of the prophecy that the Beast (RCC) of Revelation would receive a deadly wound (1798)  but that the wound would be healed. The wounding (1798) and healing (1929) in Revelation 13:3 is referring to the papacy, when General Louis Berthier's captured Pope Pius VI in 1798 and then the state of the Vatican coming into existence in 1929 was the healing of the deadly wound.

So, the 1260 days happened first as predicted according to Daniel 7, then in Revelation 13:3, the 'Mortal Wound' of the beast was 'healed' until the time of the end.

Thank you. That answered my question. As an atheist, I'm obviously not impressed, but at least someone is paying attention to the details.

It was a pleasure.  If you have any more questions on end time prophecy, I will be glad to answer you as best I can.  The answers will sometimes come from Adventist websites and teachings which I accept as reliable.

More answers can be found at:

http://www.adventist.org/ - General beliefs
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/ - Eschatology
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/ - Adventist living, eschatology, apologetics etc.
http://adventist-defense-league.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/uncomfortable-questions-posed-to.html - Answers to critics




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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #306 on: February 20, 2014, 02:32:35 PM »
Off topic commentary removed.

If you have a moderation issue you need to discuss, you may bring it up via Private Message.

Also, being abusive toward staff is not allowed.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 03:11:41 PM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #307 on: February 20, 2014, 03:02:11 PM »
off topic commentary removed.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 03:12:22 PM by screwtape »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #308 on: February 20, 2014, 03:34:43 PM »
The concept of salvation is so deep and complex that we will never fully understand the plan until God reveals it to us face-to-face after the Second Coming.

To expand on what I said earlier, SoG, what's the point in posting excerpts from SDA doctrine or even from the Bible if the mortals responsible for those writings are unable to fully "understand the plan"?  Who's to say that anyone actually got it right, especially considering the wide disparity in beliefs from one group to another?
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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #309 on: February 20, 2014, 04:54:50 PM »
Off topic commentary removed.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:55:44 AM by screwtape »
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #310 on: February 20, 2014, 05:07:06 PM »
Off topic commentary removed.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:56:21 AM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #311 on: February 20, 2014, 05:10:17 PM »
Off topic commentary removed.


How do you address your anger issues in real life?  I'd be happy to talk through some strategies with you if you are interested. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:56:53 AM by screwtape »

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #312 on: February 20, 2014, 05:45:14 PM »
The concept of salvation is so deep and complex that we will never fully understand the plan until God reveals it to us face-to-face after the Second Coming.

To expand on what I said earlier, SoG, what's the point in posting excerpts from SDA doctrine or even from the Bible if the mortals responsible for those writings are unable to fully "understand the plan"?  Who's to say that anyone actually got it right, especially considering the wide disparity in beliefs from one group to another?

Prophecy is revealed progressively and understood fully when it comes to pass.  This is the Historicist approach to prophecy and eschatology.  The early church in Antioch used this approach.  For example; during the 1260 day prophecy, no one could be 100% sure that the Roman Church was the Antichrist, unless that person just believed it was using the internal approach, i.e, they have a gut feeling (Arguably, such approaches are used in Pentecostal and Mormon churches where knowledge is based on feelings or religious experience alone) However, there are external tests required to verify these things whether they are true or not.  Adventists rely on external tests, not internal ones. We do not simply believe these prophecies to be true, we have external evidence which tells us so. The external evidence in this case is historical facts i.e, coupled with Bible scripture. 

Example: 

Historical Fact 1 - Babylon was conquered  by Medo-Persia under Cyrus the Great.

Biblical Scripture:

The Prophet Isaiah said 150 years before this happened:

"who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
    and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”
(Isaiah 44:28)

The Prophet Daniel said:

"and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth."  (Daniel 2:38-39)

"PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."  (Daniel 5:28)


So, we see these prophesies and we have an idea what they mean before their fulfillment, but afterward, when they are fulfilled, it becomes clearer what they are referring to. This is the Historicist method. We know in part as God reveals over time to us. Other denominations are entitled to their view, but we believe our method can be proven using history time lines. We all agree on the main elements, but the details are varied among us. We all have different views.  Adventism is fairly uniform though.



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Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #313 on: February 20, 2014, 05:49:49 PM »
Off topic commentary removed.


How do you address your anger issues in real life?  I'd be happy to talk through some strategies with you if you are interested.

Do you ever get angry?  I take it from your response nothing ever angers you.  If I thought you were serious, Id probably take you up on your offer ; ) but since we both know you're being sarcastic, I'll leave it thanks.  PS, In Christianity there is the concept of righteous anger.  We can be angry, yet not sin. Christ was angry when the Jews used his temple as a market trading environment, yet he did not sin when he threw them out. I follow the example of Christ.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:57:23 AM by screwtape »
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2014, 05:51:31 PM »
I like the way you can only know a prophecy was actually a prophecy after the fact. Can't lose that way, can you? Well actually, you can lose, and mostly you do, but then you just reinterpret the meaning of the prophecy. After the fact.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SwordOfGod

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #315 on: February 20, 2014, 06:06:23 PM »
I like the way you can only know a prophecy was actually a prophecy after the fact. Can't lose that way, can you? Well actually, you can lose, and mostly you do, but then you just reinterpret the meaning of the prophecy. After the fact.  &)

No, we know when a prophecy is a prophecy.  We just dont know the full meaning of it until its fulfillment.. hence the word 'ful-fill-ment.'

As explained above, we may have an idea what it means, but we will not know exactly how untill it is fulfilled and we see the event.

How does one reinterpret Daniels words when he says to the King of Babylon, "After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth" ??? Since the medo-Persians were the only conquerors, it cant be reinterpreted can it... No.  Thus it can ONLY be understood in terms of fulfillment.  We know there is going to be a defeat of Babylon, but how exactly wont be known until its actual defeat.  Quite logical really. There is no "reinterpreting here"  only sweeping statements from your end.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

- Stuart Chase (R.I.P 1985)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #316 on: February 20, 2014, 06:59:25 PM »
Prophecy is revealed progressively and understood fully when it comes to pass ...

To clarify My question, I'm not talking about humans prophesying; I'm referring specifically to humans trying to explain your god's plan to other humans, despite the fact that none of them have been to heaven and had it explained to them face-to-face.

As for Isaiah and Cyrus, apparently that's a contentious passage similar to the Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus, whereby a second author "augmented" the text at a later date.  I have to run out to a band rehearsal, but when I get back I'll see if I can pull up some more information on that controversy.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #317 on: February 20, 2014, 07:26:37 PM »
The problem is, that the supposed prophecies are so incredibly vague, that like psychic readings or Rorshach tests, you can make them mean almost anything. There are lots of powerful kingdoms, and they rise and fall and defeat each other. That is not prophetic. That is history.

"Next year two powerful lions, one black and one white, will fight each other and one will die while the other emerges victorious."

See how easy it is? I just made a prophecy. This time next year we will no doubt discover that it came true! But only, after the fact, we will realize that the "lions" are not literal lions at all, but actually two baseball teams in the World Series. Or two movies with lions in them up for the Oscars. Or Burger King and McDonald's. Or a hurricane that hits Florida. Or the SDA church vs the JW's. Or the two presidential nominees on the Republican ticket.

To be a real prophecy, it has to be specific, detailed, contain information not known at the time, and should only have one meaning. If should not be open to many different interpretations, based on changing cultural values.

Nowhere in the bible or any other ancient text does it say, "There will be in the 20th century, a country called the United States of America, and it will be the most powerful land in the world for about 100 years, then another country with far more people called China will take over."

There are NO references to incidents in China, the US, the Americas, England, Russia or South Africa in the bible at all. No references to pandas, kangaroos, polar bears, penguins or llamas, either. No references to any of the important discoveries, inventions, medical advances. No, "Relax, we will someday find a cure for leprosy and it will not be bird's blood. People will be able to fly in giant air ships across the oceans in a few hours. Women won't have to give birth in pain because of medicine. And gay people will turn out to be really cool." 

Why not? Because the people back then in the Middle East did not know that any of those things would happen.

So, to say that a particular vague passage about a small country and a big country and a bronze something and a kingdom has any specific meaning, you have to fill in a lot of blanks with stuff that only makes sense in retrospect. That hardly counts as a prophecy.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #318 on: February 20, 2014, 08:13:07 PM »
I prophesize that SwordofGod will reject what nogodsforme states.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.