Is Jesus the Son of God or God?

[harbinger77]

...of course many say that there is no way a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist can be saved, no matter how nice, kind, helpful and law-abiding they may be. Then there are the few new age type Christians who say that even an atheist can be saved if they live an otherwise "Christian" life. With that kind of strange criteria you have to let people self-identify. If they say they are in the club, they are

The Bible is the "Christian Handbook" once you start spouting off a bunch of feel good garbage that is directly against especially a clear cut doctrine in the "handbook," you're outta the club! As Christians we not only have the right but the obligation to call out a brother who has strayed from the flock. To help him find his way back in... Or give him over...

Either all self-styled Christians are equally Christian, or you guys need to develop some kind of written test, maybe with percentiles and rankings like the SAT.

First we have the bible. Which is a written standard.
As Jesus said, "If you are not with me (Jesus) you are against me."
 A test with percentages and rankings would suggest there are well.. rankings. Fact is, you either are or you are not. no one member is above the other. once you're in, you're in.
If the Bible is to much, we also have cliff notes.
In the form of the Belgic confession.
https://www.rca.org/sslpage.aspx?pid=317
Not that I would recommend skipping the actual Bible.

raised a JW and was told all their life that they were a Christian, and thought they were doing everything that a Christian should do, will they go to heaven or hell after death?

I'm sorry for your loss. I pray for you and your siblings, for a restored hope, and that the still living may find peace in their rest as well.
 
Working with JW doctrine. I would say that most of the 144,000 are already in heaven. who knows how many have "received the vision" The chances are slim he had "heavenly hope" anyway. I know there's a middle place too. Hell is not implied.

It's not for me to pass this type of eternal Judgment only God knows the heart of man. However, I think your statement is rather telling. IF his faith was 100% in Jesus Christ who saves alone, then sure He may well be in Heaven. The problem with JW is the very belief their church is the true church. It means you must have a degree of faith in the denomination. Then the various works that MUST be done. Another degree of faith. Then YOU do the work, a degree of faith in self. I'm sure the list is long. How much faith is left for Jesus? When your brother was on his way out did he say things in pride like I'm not worried I've done AB&C OR Was he pointing towards Christ in humility? I think the answer to your question is found in the last question I asked. I didn't know your brother so this is as close to an answer I can come.
I can leave you with a sobering verse though...
Mat7:22-23
 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have
we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[wheels5894]

Either all self-styled Christians are equally Christian, or you guys need to develop some kind of written test, maybe with percentiles and rankings like the SAT.

First we have the bible. Which is a written standard.
As Jesus said, "If you are not with me (Jesus) you are against me."
 A test with percentages and rankings would suggest there are well.. rankings. Fact is, you either are or you are not. no one member is above the other. once you're in, you're in.
If the Bible is to much, we also have cliff notes.
In the form of the Belgic confession.
https://www.rca.org/sslpage.aspx?pid=317
Not that I would recommend skipping the actual Bible.

You know, Harbinger, there's a line from Jesus somewhere. He says not to judge other people in case you get judged. Do you ever worry that you could get in trouble for judging others?

Meanwhile, nogodsforme has a good point. Every Christian sect seems to have different standards and different understandings of the religion based on the same book. I suppose this has to come down to authority in the end - just who in this day and age has the authority to say just what is right? The episcopal churches, including Rome, are the bearers of the oldest traditions all based on Nicea and Chalcedon. These are the oldest creeds and were the standard up to the Reformation.

What is certain is that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Unless Christians start to agree on doctrine they are doomed to disappear as they are in Europe and starting to be in North America. Don't say you haven't been warned, Harbinger.

[nogodsforme]

I have to say, harbinger, that was probably the nicest post a theist has written to me in a long time. I accept your sympathy and kind thoughts, even if I disagree with all the religious aspects.

Now then, was it Jesus or George Bush who said "you are either with me or against me"? Sometimes, like the conservatives, I get the two confused...

Anyway, the Belgic statement of faith you linked to was pretty long and detailed. I wonder how many people around the world who consider themselves Christians have even heard of it. It was written in the Middle Ages, in Europe. For the 1400 years or so before it was written, were Christians just kinda winging it, like jazz singers scatting?

I think about some of the most devoutly faithful believers I know, esp. my friends and relations living in third world countries. Many are illiterate subsistence farmers, live far from cities with churches and can barely read the bible. They are Catholic, because that is who conquered their ancestors and forced them to change their religious practices. Well, I say Catholic, but their worship is so distinctly Afro-Latin that it would be unrecognizable to the Pope. (Well, maybe not this pope. He's from Argentina.)

They live more like people in the bible than anyone I have ever known. They are humble, kind, communal, wash the feet of strangers, and really know their sheep from their goats.[1] But because they kept their sanity and self-respect by holding onto their African practices, and keeping them despite being taught the religion of their Christian slave masters, they are "wayward". They do feast days with all night drumming and dancing.[2] They get possessed by saints. They believe in witchcraft. They worship idols.

So, by your god's standards, they are all going to hell. Because they don't follow some  medieval to-do list.

I think I prefer the "all dogs go to heaven" variety of Christian.....

1.	I once actually had a family wash my feet after I walked several miles through a washed out muddy road to see them! They sent me back home on a horse.
2.	I have paid for several of these fiestas with my filthy atheist dollars.

[wheels5894]

nogodsforme, thanks for the video - listening to that made my day!

[nogodsforme]

Ella= Queen of scat.

My last post made me think of something else:
Can a person learn the true version of Christianity from a false Christian?

This is important because many people who are Christians today became so because their ancestors were colonized and enslaved by evil Christian bastards. Part of the slavery deal during the past 500 years was conversion to whatever type of Christianity the slave owner practiced (or Islam if you were captured and sold into that region).

We are told by theists here that no true Christian would ever colonize, oppress or enslave anyone, so all evil bastard slave owners must have been false Christians.

False Christians who nonetheless did everything one would expect true Christians to do: built churches, set up missions, printed and distributed bibles, kept the Sabbath holy, did not spare the rod, said that idle hands were the devil's playground, named their kids and their cities after biblical figures-- and stomped out non-Christian beliefs at every turn. The evil bastards--false but highly convincing-- were the only Christian game in town, so to speak. They must have even convinced themselves.....

So, that means that nearly all the Christians in Africa, Asia and Latin America-- and parts of Europe like Scandinavia and Ireland-- learned the faith from false Christians, evil bastard slave masters and such. The same lessons have been passed down, with slight variations, to their theist descendants today.

Can anyone today be a real Christian, if it was false Christians who spread the faith? The correct choice for the native peoples--assuming they even wanted to give up their own religions and learn true Christianity-- would have been to fight tooth and nail against conversion by these false Christians, and hold out for the real deal, but who, and based on what? The Christian people who were too poor to own any slaves, but too humble and powerless  to do anything to fight against slavery?

I doubt that the Belgic confession, translated into all the native languages, was widely available. Besides, I don't think the Belgic confession condemned slavery, did it? In fact,  the Belgic confession was the basis of the Dutch Reformed Church, which was the major institution that supported and upheld apartheid in South Africa for all those years. Also false Christians, I suppose.

All the major Christian groups, both Catholic and Protestant, were engaged in oppression and slavery and were using the bible to justify it; nobody's hands were clean. 

So, who were the true Christians?

[jdawg70]

So, who were the true Christians?

There's more than this, but it's a start:

Biblical literalist Christian response:
"The bible is the sole authority.  While there are leaders and teachers that provide guidance regarding true Christianity, it is ultimately the responsibility of the person (soul) in question, and a proper reading of the bible should reveal the true path.  It is your fault, no matter what, unless you read the bible correctly.  Beware of false prophets.  The bible is the final authority.  Here's how to read it, and you should listen to me because I know what I'm talking about.  Trust me."

Liberal progressive Christian response:
"The messages given throughout generations are given simply by the experience of life itself.  These experiences are filtered through the leaders and teachers, which, because the totality of experiences of life itself provide such a large amount of data, consciously, objectively unknowable but spiritually knowable, gets filtered through fallible humans, then, while the core of the message passes through, some noise in the form of incorrect teachings on relatively minor points is inserted in.  So, all Christians are true Christians as long as they have the core message right - the message that....HEY SQUIRREL!"

Neo-con Christian response:
"There were plenty of true Christians back then.  That's who guided my path towards Christ.  Did you say 'history'?  What a strange word!  History!  Is that word Chinese?"

Hippy-lapsed Catholic that likes to say 'yes' to the question 'does god exist' response:
"There was a squirrel here a second ago."

[nogodsforme]

Yeah. That. And no way to objectively tell whether you are following the right version of Christianity or not.

All denominations say they are the people who really follow the bible, understand what Jesus was really all about, know what god really meant, etc. All have sincere followers willing to suffer and even die for their faith. All say that other groups who do almost the exact same things are wrong. And all do some things that no outsider can understand, and appear to be batsh!t crazy to an unbeliever.

All mainstream Christian groups participated in and benefited from slavery, oppression and colonization. None condemned or banned it--not even for their members. All managed to find ways to justify and support it in their religions. Whenever societies began to change and become more egalitarian, there were strong Christian voices against social reforms.

The KKK, Nazis and other racist groups were entrenched in the Christian churches of their communities. There were pastors who led lynchings on Saturday and then preached sermons full of racism to all-white congregations on Sunday. The Christian churches were all racially segregated! Now people want to rewrite history and act like slavery, racism and oppression were just little blips and were not part and parcel of mainstream Christian life. Now Christians want to take credit for abolition, civil rights and integration. There were some who helped fight for equal rights, true.  But it would not have taken nearly so long if the vast majority of Christians hadn't been trying to hold onto their racism.

I am not saying Christians are somehow worse than other religions in this regard--all religions had slavery-- right up until they didn't. My point is that there is no sign that any supernatural being was involved in Christianity, unless this being also loved colonialism, slavery, etc from prehistory until the 19th century-- and then suddenly changed his mind about 1964. 

[wheels5894]

Ah, nogodsforme, but you forgot something. When the slavers were busy setting up the the New World and all that, at that time slavery had not be condemned as unchristian and therefore these people were, not quite the one true Christian_tm but certainly Christians - doing that their churches and governments said was OK. It is only later, when changed the rules, so to speak, that the poor slavers end up being the bad guys.. Since they didn't know about the change of plan, though, I can see how they can be condemned as that would be like retrospective legislation.

[nogodsforme]

Exactly. Slavery was not condemned back then. So you could be a perfectly good Christian and have slaves. You could even have sex with them and make kids with them, as long as you freed your mistress and children posthumously in your will. True history. Massa was still on his way to heaven. He's there now, surrounded by his legit wife and kids.

If his slave mistress and slave kids refused to accept Massa's religion for the understandable reasons of him being a two-faced bastard rapist slave owner with all the morals of a rabid polecat, well, they are, of course, burning up in hell for all eternity. Just stands to reason. Only thing god could possibly do. A clearer demonstration of the love of Jesus, I cannot imagine.

Since there is an easy-to-understand, unchanging, biblical, godly moral code, I am sure Christians today have no problem with this scenario at all. 

[acturbo]

a couple things to consider...

1. if Mary was his mother, and god (lowercase) was his father, then he would be considered a demigod.

2. consider also that we may confuse the term god and God. Meaning, the one-all-be-all entity or source called God may be something much more vast and beyond our current comprehension that sits far above actual beings our ancient history and bibles refer to as "god". And that these beings called "god" are spiritually more advanced than us, but are not to be confused with the ultimate entity God. So, in summary, we seem to confuse "god" and  "God" and "demigod".

[Nam]

I always thought "God" was the Christians way of signifying that theirs is above all other gods. I could be wrong.

-Nam

[ParkingPlaces]

But of course, if none of them exist, it really isn't all that important what they are called.

[MrFriday]

But of course, if none of them exist, it really isn't all that important what they are called.

Maybe for all the theological seminary students

[wheels5894]

a couple things to consider...

1. if Mary was his mother, and god (lowercase) was his father, then he would be considered a demigod.

2. consider also that we may confuse the term god and God. Meaning, the one-all-be-all entity or source called God may be something much more vast and beyond our current comprehension that sits far above actual beings our ancient history and bibles refer to as "god". And that these beings called "god" are spiritually more advanced than us, but are not to be confused with the ultimate entity God. So, in summary, we seem to confuse "god" and  "God" and "demigod".

1. You have to go with the flow. Greek Legends, Roman Legends and, of course, Christian ones too go with the idea that is a god is your father then you are a god! Probably best not to annoy the gods with pedantic ideas about half-gods though. 

2. Not for the Jews and Christians. They conceived of monotheism which is juts one god who created everything and did everything. You might be right but when considering this Christian topic we are probably best sticking with the general way of thinking of the bible even if some of us only then dismiss the idea of any gods.

[Lectus]

A Christian should always stick to the bible and the teachings contained in it. If your interpretation is in conflict with any part, your wrong. This is the fundamental reason I have yet to find a denomination I trust. With that being said I present the case against JW.

JW's deny several fundamental doctrines of the Bible, including the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, His bodily return, the Millennial reign of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. JW's deny a literal Hell and teach that hell (Sheol in the Old Testament) merely refers to the grave. However, Psalm 9:17 plainly states that the wicked shall be turned into Hell. If the righteous and the wicked go to the same place, then Psalm 9:17 would make no sense at all. Clearly, the righteous and the wicked go to different places upon death. JW teach soul sleep but, absent from the body is present with the Lord. This is also unbiblical.
JW's teach that Michael the archangel BECAME Jesus. They try to steer away from this doctrine because it is one of the topics that can be used to show prospective JW's the fallacy of their religion. Most regular people, let alone bible scholars, have a problem with the idea that Michael and Jesus are the same person, because they are not.

JW's teach that Jesus is “a god,” but not almighty God. Jesus plainly claimed in Revelation 1:8 to be
“the almighty.” John 10:33 evidences that Jesus taught men that He is God. If God is God and Jesus is "a god" then you now have a pantheon of at least 2 gods. If Jesus is just "a god" the The father is also just "a god"

JW's don't believe in owing allegiance to the government, which is unbiblical. Biblically, although God comes first, Christians are to submit and owe allegiance to their government, as the government was established by God himself.
 
Add to this, as mentioned, the JW witnesses teach they are the one true church. They have divine revelation from God himself. Yet, they have been giving us dates for the end since they were established. When we read what a prophet is in the old testament then this shows us they are no true church. In the least they have no special contact with God.

I could supply several links to learn the teachings you don't get at the front door. As with most cults, such as the mormons, and the masons, you have to stick around for a while before they start droppin' the bombs on ya.

I'm not a theist, but I agree with JWs when they say Jesus is not God.

The bible never said Jesus is the same as Yahweh. Where does it say it?

Jesus said that the father was bigger than him. The bible also said the authority was given to him by the father. No God needs someone else to give him authority.

JW's may be wrong about other interpretations. But Jesus never claimed to be God.

[wheels5894]

Good point, Lectus. Any quotes from Revelation in which Jesus is supposed to be speaking are certainly not words that more than one person heard. Indeed, I think the whole work is more in the nature of a book encouraging Christians when they were being persecuted. The Beast - 666 - is the numerical representation of Emperor Nero for example. Of course the text is written in a way so as to hide the real meaning for any Romans who happen on a copy but that'[s the nature of trying to stay secure when being persecuted.

No, this is the author expressing what he thought was the right belief to his fellow Christians. It doesn't reflect any further words from anyone but the author. So that quote really can't be counted.

As for the gospels p- the only places where we might find the speech of Jesus there is no place where Jesus specifically claims to be 'THE GOD' and often denies it.

[nogodsforme]

That is the main reason I try to never capitalize the word "god".

To do that seems presumptuous, as if everyone agrees that there is only one and everyone knows who that is, (wink wink). Weird assumption. Like if someone always capitalized the words Husband, Neighbor, Tree, Car or Computer like nobody else could have one that matters, or as if theirs is the only one that exists,. Even though your kid, dog, drugs and cell phone are special, do you capitalize the word Kid, Dog, Pot Stash or Cell Phone when you refer to one of them?

I have yet to have a student challenge me when I write something about "god" or "gods" on the board. I try to use the actual name of the god if I am referring to any specific one. Although Allah means god, but it's in Arabic so it doesn't count...

[SwordOfGod]

Jesus became human to save us. Through Him, our helper, advocate and redeemer, we can begin again. He is preparing heaven for us and will return to take us there.

God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

Jesus is the Son of God, which means he is God the Son equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit Who are One without end.

The concept of the Son of God is in the Old Testament, the Jewish Holy text.  See below;

Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fists? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name--and his son's name? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).

Source: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/god/son/

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

[Nam]

Jesus became human to save us.

Was he an extra-terrestrial?

Through Him, our helper, advocate and redeemer, we can begin again.

Begin again? Damnit! the game ain't over yet! I haven't had my roll.

He is preparing heaven for us and will return to take us there.

Is that anything like Disney World?

God the eternal

You know what else is eternal? Farts. Yep! They never go away. They just choke you to death. Must be the work of Satan.

Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ.

Then, not really human. LIAR! I'm telling! Lying is for bad people. You must be bad.

Through Him all things were created

Then why are people like you so hellbent on killing and persecuting those not like you? If it's Biblegod's creation, then it must be good.

the character of God is revealed

Fictional character.

the salvation of humanity is accomplished and the world is judged.

Sounds like an after school special. Those suck.

Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.

So Biblegod raped a little girl? Oh, it was a gangup, Biblegod, The Holy Spirit, and the spirit of Jesus raped Mary. Talk about incest!

He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

You copy/pasted this, didn't you? Don't have your own words? Are you just a dronemuggeringspammer? I think so.

Jesus is the Son of God, which means he is God the Son equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit Who are One without end.

Just like your idiocy, retardation, and stupidity are one.

The concept of the Son of God is in the Old Testament, the Jewish Holy text.  See below;

You definitely copy/pasted this. Drive by, too?

Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fists? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name--and his son's name? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).

Source: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/god/son/

Idiot spammer.

Preaching isn't allowed here but then, you don't give a shit because you are shit.

-Nam

[SwordOfGod]

You definitely copy/pasted this. Drive by, too?

Source is supplied. It seems stating simple facts winds you up even more than quoting the Bible, the source of all truth. If you had evolved from a dog, which you foolish atheists accept as fact, you'd be chasing your own tail and eating your own excrement.

...you don't give a shit because you are shit.

Enjoy every last bit, there's more coming for you to digest and vomit out from your filthy dog mouth.

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

[Emily]

SwordofGod, I have an 8 month old daughter. Would it make sense to you for her to be saved from the trouble that I've been in in the past?

If the bible is correct, why do we need a savior to save us from something we had no control over (Adam and Eve falling, according to Genesis)?

[Astreja]

... the Bible, the source of all truth ...

(Springy G reaches into Her desk caddy and pulls out a pair of scissors, humming Walkürenritt by Wagner as She thumbs through the pages of a large, ornate book)

SwordOfGod, I'm calling your "truth" bluff.  Either you courier a real, live Talking Snake™ (Genesis 3) to My home by 9 a.m. CST tomorrow morning, or your page in the Book of Life gets it.

Or you could just apologize to us for your embarrassingly execrable misunderstanding of the Theory of Evolution, and go troll some other site.

*snip snip snip* So you’ve got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?

[Nam]

Source is supplied.

Yeah, sure was. Got any thoughts of your own, or are you just one of the plethora of drones out there?

It seems stating simple facts winds you up even more than quoting the Bible

What facts? You didn't provide any facts, you provided propaganda from a website with its own bias. Where are the sources filled with all the evidence any of it is true? You think your one link is the evidence? Hilarious.

the source of all truth.

To you, and those like you. That doesn't mean it's an actual truth, just one you wish to believe in.

If you had evolved from a dog, which you foolish atheists accept as fact

What does evolution have to do with atheism? Secondly, show me where I stated I evolved from a dog, where any atheist has stated that. I can show, by your own words, you're an idiot, so, you're making a claim: back it up.

you'd be chasing your own tail and eating your own excrement.

Yes but I'd still be saner than you.

Enjoy every last bit, there's more coming for you to digest and vomit out from your filthy dog mouth.

Evidence?

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

Only ones who say trite like this are people who can't provide any evidence because they believe in fiction.

-Nam

[SwordOfGod]

Hi Emily,

First of all, congratulations on having a daughter, I myself have a 6 month old baby girl as well.  I know they change our world completely.  We become more protective, loving and careful in the choices we make in life. So... just to quote you..

SwordofGod, I have an 8 month old daughter. Would it make sense to you for her to be saved from the trouble that I've been in in the past?

If the bible is correct, why do we need a savior to save us from something we had no control over (Adam and Eve falling, according to Genesis)?

... basically, God is our Father.  He is perfect in every way.  He cares for us like we care for our children, but much more so. He gave us free choice to do what is right in His sight, yet we chose to rebel against Him in our hearts. Most children do the same to their parents eventually, but in love we correct them because we love them. It is the same with God and us. We are all His children.

So why do we need a Savior?  Do you think your child will ever need you to save her from certain situations in life, be it emotional, financial, physical etc..?? You will ensure to the best of your ability your child is safe. Why?  Because you love her.  God wants to save us from life's situations which cause us pain as best He can, because He loves you.  Sin in the world causes this for us. God saves us from the curse of Sin when we turn to Him in repentance and acknowledge our faults to Him.

Would it make sense for you daughter to be saved from the sins of your past? Yes, of course. Your personality traits are passed down to your daughter, so if you have certain troublesome habits, its likely she will develop them as well.  Would you like to save her from those? As with hereditary diseases, there are hereditary personality / character flaws which are passed down to our children.  Sin is passed down from Adam and Eve throughout the world.  We do not inherit their guilt for their sins, but are guilty for our own due to inherent weakness on our part.  That's why we need a Saviour, to be our strength in our weakness, to be our Saviour from sin by the power of God. This saving power redeems our lives from destruction if we accept it.  I would invite you to accept that truth.

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

[SwordOfGod]

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

Only ones who say trite like this are people who can't provide any evidence because they believe in fiction.

-Nam
[/quote]


Obviously the fictional character Humpty Dumpty never made you quite as angry as the historical Jesus did.

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible

[Astreja]

Sin is passed down from Adam and Eve throughout the world.

Well, there's no evidence for "Adam" and "Eve" as in the Biblical characters.  There is Mitochondrial Eve, however, so hypothetically we all have genes that can be traced back to her.  Which chromosome contains the encoding for "sin"?  (I'm presuming that Biblegod would have had to identically modify the same chromosome in both Adam and Eve in order for such a genetic disease to be transmissible to all of humanity.)

[Astreja]

Would it make sense for you daughter to be saved from the sins of your past? ... Would you like to save her from those?

Is it just Me, or does this sound just a bit like a protection racket?

[ParkingPlaces]

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

Only ones who say trite like this are people who can't provide any evidence because they believe in fiction.

-Nam

Obviously the fictional character Humpty Dumpty never made you quite as angry as the historical Jesus did.

For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
    For those who don't believe, no proof is possible

[/quote]

I can't speak for Nam, but Jesus has never made me angry. Now folks who kill in his name, they piss me off big time. But not the kid himself. His never existing kind of protects him in that department.

[Willie]

Would it make sense for you daughter to be saved from the sins of your past? Yes, of course. Your personality traits are passed down to your daughter, so if you have certain troublesome habits, its likely she will develop them as well.  Would you like to save her from those? As with hereditary diseases, there are hereditary personality / character flaws which are passed down to our children.  Sin is passed down from Adam and Eve throughout the world.  We do not inherit their guilt for their sins, but are guilty for our own due to inherent weakness on our part.  That's why we need a Saviour, to be our strength in our weakness, to be our Saviour from sin by the power of God. This saving power redeems our lives from destruction if we accept it.  I would invite you to accept that truth.

Original sin is among the most vile, most evil of lies, yet you label it "truth" and pretend that it is good. It is you, Christian, who should be repenting for this sickness that you deliberately attempt to spread. Maybe someday, if you ever break free from the grip of the indoctrination that has poisoned your mind, you will recognize it for the vile thing that it is.