Author Topic: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?  (Read 17607 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #174 on: January 07, 2014, 05:10:21 PM »
Sorry, missed a link out.

A psychologist has studied this phenomena and here is the article. Apparently the rate of death is about 1 a year - not much but in a tiny number of churches pretty significant.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #175 on: January 07, 2014, 05:48:12 PM »
I am amazed at how people will latch onto one passage in the bible and create an entire new church around it, and then the history of how that church got started just fades away. Seems as if the more mainstream believers are afraid to point out that snake handling (or whatever practice), is nuts and only got started in the US Appalachian south (or whatever region) during the Great depression (or whatever time period) due to certain specific cultural and economic events.

Because then they might have to look at their own church and discover the exact same thing-- ie that their religion has nothing to do with a supernatural being, but is based on people trying to interpret some scary or disruptive aspects of their lives. I wonder how much of Scientology is related to the fear of the atomic bomb, for example. Time period is right.

Read about how the JW's got started--people were so freaked out by the horrors of WWI that they thought the world was literally ending. They were the ones chosen to tell everyone and save people from Armageddon. And have been predicting the apocalypse, and being wrong, ever since.[1]
 1. Or as my late blackabilly JW grandmother would say, "every sance"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Patrick Henry

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #176 on: January 08, 2014, 02:43:22 AM »

I'm confused.  Why would you mention Ecclesiastes, Job, and Isaiah.  You are getting off topic.  All these writers believed in God but not a trinitarian God.  What is contradictory about the nature of God that is written in these books?

I'm glad you at least admitted to the fact that Jesus being ignorant of the timing of his second coming is a contradiction to the belief that Jesus is "one being" with the Father.  I have a question for you.  Do you think it's fair for God to require humans to believe in a contradiction in order to be saved?  If I have to believe that Jesus is the one true God ("I am") to avoid dying in my sins (John 8:24) then, with all due respect, your God is a monster for requiring me to believe in a contradiction for salvation.     
Sorry I don't have time to answer your entire post.  I'll try to get to it. 
So I've been thinking about this a little bit more.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

It’s not that the Son of God is inferior to the Father, but there is a unity in the Godhead.  One nature, doesn't mean separate. 
Jesus became man and limited Himself to being human and needing to rely upon His Father.  Remember the idea that He is also our example, as well as our Savior.  So by relying on God He shows us that we need to do the same. 
So it stands to reason that Jesus, while still being God in nature, was limited in knowledge as well as physical strength and the other human limitations.  So He is saying that God needs to reveal things to Him and the second coming apparently wasn't revealed to Him. 
When I said that it's impossible and a contradiction, I'm saying that it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal it in the heart.  It's difficult for me to describe, but I don't sense any contradiction here, even though it's tough to put into words.  I do think that it's good to think through and be ABLE to explain it, which is part of the reason why I'm here.  To be challenged to think and explain.

Does a person need to believe in the Trinity to be saved?  Back to that question.  I still say that it's important to understand who you believe in.  If Jesus is a created being, it doesn't make sense that He could create eternal souls.  Since He, Himself isn't eternal.  If Jesus is eternal Son, then the idea of a personal relationship with God makes sense because being our Creator, He loved us so much that He went to the cross.  Christ loved us so much that He tells the story of leaving the 99 sheep to find the one lost.  The prodigal son story, and shows compassion for and rescues the prostitute.  That Jesus was not only there during the creation of the world, but He "knew us before the foundations of the world". Eph 1:4
I see it like this:  If I hear a story of a child who is lost, I feel bad, and go about my day with concern.  If MY child was lost, my day doesn't end until I find her and I will spend all my time, and energy, and be willing to lose my own life to rescue her.  That is the difference between a Jesus who wasn't there during creation as God, and a Jesus who is God and is the Creator and Savior of those who are lost.  There's a big difference and it affects a person if they understand it. 
It's not just Jesus the created being on the cross.  It's Jesus your Creator on the cross because He knows you intimately, and loves you.

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #177 on: January 08, 2014, 12:53:42 PM »

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

It’s not that the Son of God is inferior to the Father, but there is a unity in the Godhead.  One nature, doesn't mean separate. 
Jesus became man and limited Himself to being human and needing to rely upon His Father.

O.K. Let me see if I got this.

1.) "The Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

Interpretation: Since the Son can do nothing of Himself then the Son is a separate being from the Father.

2.) "It’s not that the Son of God is inferior to the Father, but there is a unity in the Godhead.  One nature, doesn't mean separate."

Interpretation: The Son is co-equal to the Father and one nature doesn't mean separate so the Son is the same being as the Father.

3.) "Jesus became man and limited Himself to being human and needing to rely upon His Father."

Interpretation: Jesus needed to rely upon his Father so the Son is a separate being from the Father.


Jesus went from being the same being as the Father, to a separate being from the Father, to the same being as the Father in just four sentences.  You would have made a great New Testament author. 

My argument as a "Christian heretic" would have been against your claim in #2 that the Son of God is not inferior to the Father.  The bible suggested to me that Jesus WAS inferior to the Father which meant that he was a separate being.  A few examples:

1 Cor. 11:3 - "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

John 14:28 - "...because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

1 Cor. 15:28 - "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

 
 
So it stands to reason that Jesus, while still being God in nature, was limited in knowledge as well as physical strength and the other human limitations.  So He is saying that God needs to reveal things to Him and the second coming apparently wasn't revealed to Him.

Look at that.  I'm a prophet.  Referring to Jesus' ignorance of the timing of his second coming, I stated in post #142, "I am going to predict that the answer you will give me will sound a lot like you are trying to round the corners of a square to make it a circle so they can be the same shape.  Nothing you say will make sense to me because this is a contradiction.  My guess is that you will "round the corners" and say that Jesus didn't have all the attributes in His humanity."

Just kidding.  I am not a prophet.  It was just a good guess.  Something to think about:  If Jesus was "limited in knowledge as well as physical strength and the other human limitations", then He wasn't fully God.  I'm going to use your phrase and say it "stands to reason" that Jesus is not fully God if there is evidence of Him not possessing all the attributes of God.  Saying that Jesus is fully man and fully God is a CONTRADICTION.  The Trinity is impossible to understand because CONTRADICTIONS DON'T MAKE SENSE TO LOGICAL HUMANS WHO UTILIZE THE ATTRIBUTE OF "REASON"!   

   
When I said that it's impossible and a contradiction, I'm saying that it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal it in the heart.  It's difficult for me to describe, but I don't sense any contradiction here, even though it's tough to put into words.



I think you have this backwards.  It's tough to put into words because it is a contradiction.  I think I have just spotted a contradiction of contradictions.  I hope this doesn't turn out to be an infinite regression of contradictions.

Referring to the apparent contradiction of Jesus being one being with the Father and at the same time not knowing the timing of his second coming you said in post #159, "It's not only a contradiction to a logical human being.  It's a contradiction to all human beings."

But now you say, "I don't sense any contradiction here".

You are contradicting yourself saying that you don't sense any contradiction here. 


I do think that it's good to think through and be ABLE to explain it, which is part of the reason why I'm here.  To be challenged to think and explain.

It is good to think through all of this and be ABLE to explain it.  I commend you for being here.  I especially respect the fact that you are trying to defend the most controversial and illogical doctrine presented in the bible.  The reason why it is challenging for you to explain the Trinity to me is because I have too much ammo from the bible that speaks directly against the notion that there is one God presented in three persons that are co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial. 

You say I twist certain scriptures and as a former "Christian heretic" I would say that you are twisting certain scriptures.  The truth is that every Christian apologist has to twist certain scriptures to fit their view of certain doctrines because there are too many apparent contradictions.  My conclusion: Either the Holy Spirit is a horrible communicator or this Holy Spirit thing doesn't exist.  I have jumped the fence from the land of make-believe to the land of reason and logic and now believe the latter.       

Does a person need to believe in the Trinity to be saved?  Back to that question.


Great it seems like you are going to finally answer this question directly.  I am still confused as to your answer to this question.  You said it is important to understand that Jesus is God to understand salvation and then it seemed like you contradicted yourself by saying that it is not a prerequisite to believe that Jesus is "I am" (Yahweh).  So a simple yes or no would be great! 

So I'm reading your answer.........................aaaaaand once again I am disappointed as you don't answer the question directly.  I still have no idea if you believe that one has to believe in the Trinity (or binity) in order to be saved.

I'm left to believe that you might not even have an answer to this.  In addition, I'm left to believe, once again, that the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.     

I still say that it's important to understand who you believe in.  If Jesus is a created being, it doesn't make sense that He could create eternal souls.  Since He, Himself isn't eternal.


This sounds like exactly what my former pastor preached.  However this is your opinion and not biblical.  In addition, this is what you call a non-sequitur (logical fallacy).  It is just as plausible that the Father created the Son and then they shared in the creation.  Two verses to consider: Proverbs 30:4 and John 17:4. 

Furthermore, ask yourself, is there any evidence in the bible where Jesus is GIVEN authority by the Father?  Yep!  One example:

Matt. 28:18 - "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."  It "stands to reason" that if power had to be GIVEN to the Son then the Son is not co-equal or con-substantial with the Father.   

If Jesus is eternal Son, then the idea of a personal relationship with God makes sense because being our Creator, He loved us so much that He went to the cross.  Christ loved us so much that He tells the story of leaving the 99 sheep to find the one lost.  The prodigal son story, and shows compassion for and rescues the prostitute. 

Not to get too off topic but this sounds like I might have a chance at this thing you call salvation.  Harbinger says, "The holy spirit won't regenerate the non-elect. Until then, much like yourself, there is no desire to repent nor can there be".

It seems like you (and Jesus) are implying that I am lost and that Jesus will possibly rescue me.  Even though the odds are one in a million, are you saying that I have a chance?  Harbinger says that the Holy Spirit won't regenerate the non-elect and there can be no desire for a person like me to repent. 

Do you agree with him?  Do I have a chance?  A yes or no would be much appreciated.  I'm testing the credibility of my previous conclusion that the Holy Spirit (a.k.a God) is either a horrible communicator or he doesn't even exist.         

It's not just Jesus the created being on the cross.  It's Jesus your Creator on the cross because He knows you intimately, and loves you.

Why can't it be both?  Jesus can be both a created being and my creator right?  The definition of SON implies that Jesus was created.

In addition, I have an argument that it was not Jesus' plan to come down to earth to die on the cross for the sins of mankind because he loves people.  He only did what the Father commanded him to do.  It seems to me that the Son died on the cross not out of love for people so much but out of obedience to his Father.  It was the Father's plan and not the Son's.  Three verses to consider:

Matt. 26:39 - "And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

John 8:42 - "...for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me".

John 6:38 - "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me".

TWO DIFFERENT INITIATIVES - TWO DIFFERENT WILLS - TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS!  It "stands to reason" that the doctrine of the Trinity is either contradictory or completely unbiblical depending on how one wants to twist scripture to fit their view of Jesus.



 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #178 on: January 08, 2014, 11:16:14 PM »
I am amazed at how people will latch onto one passage in the bible and create an entire new church around it, and then the history of how that church got started just fades away. Seems as if the more mainstream believers are afraid to point out that snake handling (or whatever practice), is nuts and only got started in the US Appalachian south (or whatever region) during the Great depression (or whatever time period) due to certain specific cultural and economic events.

Because then they might have to look at their own church and discover the exact same thing-- ie that their religion has nothing to do with a supernatural being, but is based on people trying to interpret some scary or disruptive aspects of their lives. I wonder how much of Scientology is related to the fear of the atomic bomb, for example. Time period is right.

Read about how the JW's got started--people were so freaked out by the horrors of WWI that they thought the world was literally ending. They were the ones chosen to tell everyone and save people from Armageddon. And have been predicting the apocalypse, and being wrong, ever since.[1]
 1. Or as my late blackabilly JW grandmother would say, "every sance"

I never attempted to defend the crazy dudes that do this. I only mentioned it's done. It's related to God's word and a desire to embrace all the words of jesus... nothing more nothing less.

Do you honestly believe that ALL christians have no clue about church history? Especially their own denominational History? Is it safe to say you didn't grow up in a church?
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #179 on: January 08, 2014, 11:43:25 PM »
 This is getting out of hand... :/
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 11:45:30 PM by harbinger77 »
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #180 on: January 09, 2014, 02:26:27 AM »
at least we agree on something...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 02:29:24 AM by harbinger77 »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #181 on: January 09, 2014, 05:04:07 PM »
I am amazed at how people will latch onto one passage in the bible and create an entire new church around it, and then the history of how that church got started just fades away. Seems as if the more mainstream believers are afraid to point out that snake handling (or whatever practice), is nuts and only got started in the US Appalachian south (or whatever region) during the Great depression (or whatever time period) due to certain specific cultural and economic events.

Because then they might have to look at their own church and discover the exact same thing-- ie that their religion has nothing to do with a supernatural being, but is based on people trying to interpret some scary or disruptive aspects of their lives. I wonder how much of Scientology is related to the fear of the atomic bomb, for example. Time period is right.

Read about how the JW's got started--people were so freaked out by the horrors of WWI that they thought the world was literally ending. They were the ones chosen to tell everyone and save people from Armageddon. And have been predicting the apocalypse, and being wrong, ever since.[1]
 1. Or as my late blackabilly JW grandmother would say, "every sance"

I never attempted to defend the crazy dudes that do this. I only mentioned it's done. It's related to God's word and a desire to embrace all the words of jesus... nothing more nothing less.

Do you honestly believe that ALL christians have no clue about church history? Especially their own denominational History? Is it safe to say you didn't grow up in a church?

I grew up in the JW religion. I don't know if you consider them a church or not. I am pretty sure you don't consider them to be Christians!

We were taught that we were the only real Christians on earth, and of course there wouldn't be very many of us because many are called but few answer, and you will be persecuted for god and so forth. I remember the smirking, superior attitude that was the reaction to other churches who called themselves Christian....

Of course some people know their own church history, but they tend to gloss over the places where something clearly was political or military or financial or just plain lucky that helped their god do his thing. In any other person's faith they can see that it was not supernatural, but in their own it was of course the god magic.

Example: Christianity has been the dominant religious force in the western world for the past 500 years. Many Christians will cite the 2 billion believers worldwide that as proof of their god's super powers, or at least that their religion must be true. In fact the spread of this faith was due largely to Spanish and British colonization, superior weapons and some pretty bada$$ diseases.

Example: Islam has spread much faster than Christianity. It is now the fastest growing major religion. Muslims cite this as proof of their god's super powers, or at least that their religion must be true. In fact the spread of this faith was due largely to people being angry at their previous empires, and in more recent times to a) being similar enough to Christianity but with more specific rules, and b) really good communications and transportation technology.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #182 on: January 09, 2014, 09:36:13 PM »
I am amazed at how people will latch onto one passage in the bible and create an entire new church around it, and then the history of how that church got started just fades away. Seems as if the more mainstream believers are afraid to point out that snake handling (or whatever practice), is nuts and only got started in the US Appalachian south (or whatever region) during the Great depression (or whatever time period) due to certain specific cultural and economic events.

Because then they might have to look at their own church and discover the exact same thing-- ie that their religion has nothing to do with a supernatural being, but is based on people trying to interpret some scary or disruptive aspects of their lives. I wonder how much of Scientology is related to the fear of the atomic bomb, for example. Time period is right.

Read about how the JW's got started--people were so freaked out by the horrors of WWI that they thought the world was literally ending. They were the ones chosen to tell everyone and save people from Armageddon. And have been predicting the apocalypse, and being wrong, ever since.[1]
 1. Or as my late blackabilly JW grandmother would say, "every sance"

I never attempted to defend the crazy dudes that do this. I only mentioned it's done. It's related to God's word and a desire to embrace all the words of jesus... nothing more nothing less.

Do you honestly believe that ALL christians have no clue about church history? Especially their own denominational History? Is it safe to say you didn't grow up in a church?

I grew up in the JW religion. I don't know if you consider them a church or not. I am pretty sure you don't consider them to be Christians!

We were taught that we were the only real Christians on earth, and of course there wouldn't be very many of us because many are called but few answer, and you will be persecuted for god and so forth. I remember the smirking, superior attitude that was the reaction to other churches who called themselves Christian....

Of course some people know their own church history, but they tend to gloss over the places where something clearly was political or military or financial or just plain lucky that helped their god do his thing. In any other person's faith they can see that it was not supernatural, but in their own it was of course the god magic.

Example: Christianity has been the dominant religious force in the western world for the past 500 years. Many Christians will cite the 2 billion believers worldwide that as proof of their god's super powers, or at least that their religion must be true. In fact the spread of this faith was due largely to Spanish and British colonization, superior weapons and some pretty bada$$ diseases.

Example: Islam has spread much faster than Christianity. It is now the fastest growing major religion. Muslims cite this as proof of their god's super powers, or at least that their religion must be true. In fact the spread of this faith was due largely to people being angry at their previous empires, and in more recent times to a) being similar enough to Christianity but with more specific rules, and b) really good communications and transportation technology.

I Place them in the same category as the Mormons. JW are not christian and are therefore not THE church. I would be willing to call them A church though. So yeah you got me...
 
Theology so fragile I can Call attention to one verse and refute the entire thing. Even using the new world translation. What do you care though you are out right?

So, honest curiosity, as an apostate I know you have been excommunicated, does your family still speak to you? Are they even still in with JW? Did you move away from everything?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #183 on: January 09, 2014, 10:02:42 PM »
I Place them in the same category as the Mormons. JW are not christian and are therefore not THE church. I would be willing to call them A church though. So yeah you got me...

Jehovah's witnesses are Christians...
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2014, 03:31:35 AM »


I Place them in the same category as the Mormons. JW are not christian and are therefore not THE church. I would be willing to call them A church though. So yeah you got me...
 
Theology so fragile I can Call attention to one verse and refute the entire thing. Even using the new world translation. What do you care though you are out right?

So, honest curiosity, as an apostate I know you have been excommunicated, does your family still speak to you? Are they even still in with JW? Did you move away from everything?

So, could you tell us on what precise basis you regard JWs as not Christian? Who sets the rules for what a verse means and what it doesn't mean?

You see, this was problem in the Early Church - what were the right things to believe such as who was god and who was Jesus. It could not be settled by individuals and so was settled by conferences of bishops who set out the limits to what the doctrine could be. So I hope that your rejections of JWs, who worship Jesus, isn't a personal one but based on at least the Church Fathers doctrines.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2014, 07:41:42 AM »
why would I base anything on something more than the Bible? Even the early church fathers should be checked out in the light of scripture. Scripture, not mans doctrine, is the authority. I plan to go deeper on JW it's time to get the kids ready for school...
Interesting to note no body wants to argue the mormons as being christian.. why is that?
Aside from that why do you even care?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:51:01 AM by harbinger77 »
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2014, 09:09:17 AM »
A Christian should always stick to the bible and the teachings contained in it. If your interpretation is in conflict with any part, your wrong. This is the fundamental reason I have yet to find a denomination I trust. With that being said I present the case against JW.

JW's deny several fundamental doctrines of the Bible, including the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, His bodily return, the Millennial reign of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. JW's deny a literal Hell and teach that hell (Sheol in the Old Testament) merely refers to the grave. However, Psalm 9:17 plainly states that the wicked shall be turned into Hell. If the righteous and the wicked go to the same place, then Psalm 9:17 would make no sense at all. Clearly, the righteous and the wicked go to different places upon death. JW teach soul sleep but, absent from the body is present with the Lord. This is also unbiblical.
JW's teach that Michael the archangel BECAME Jesus. They try to steer away from this doctrine because it is one of the topics that can be used to show prospective JW's the fallacy of their religion. Most regular people, let alone bible scholars, have a problem with the idea that Michael and Jesus are the same person, because they are not.

JW's teach that Jesus is “a god,” but not almighty God. Jesus plainly claimed in Revelation 1:8 to be
“the almighty.” John 10:33 evidences that Jesus taught men that He is God. If God is God and Jesus is "a god" then you now have a pantheon of at least 2 gods. If Jesus is just "a god" the The father is also just "a god"

JW's don't believe in owing allegiance to the government, which is unbiblical. Biblically, although God comes first, Christians are to submit and owe allegiance to their government, as the government was established by God himself.
 
Add to this, as mentioned, the JW witnesses teach they are the one true church. They have divine revelation from God himself. Yet, they have been giving us dates for the end since they were established. When we read what a prophet is in the old testament then this shows us they are no true church. In the least they have no special contact with God.

I could supply several links to learn the teachings you don't get at the front door. As with most cults, such as the mormons, and the masons, you have to stick around for a while before they start droppin' the bombs on ya.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2014, 09:39:41 AM »
A Christian should always stick to the bible and the teachings contained in it. If your interpretation is in conflict with any part, your wrong. This is the fundamental reason I have yet to find a denomination I trust.

So, you have set yourself up as n authority as to what doctrines match the bible what what doctrines do not? This is what I was asking you about in my earlier post about ho sets the rules. Your reply here suggests that you think every individual can be their own authority on the bible and each person can have their own interpretation of the doctrines.

Pardon me for saying this, but the way I read the New Testament is that the fundamental quality of the Christians portrayed by the NT is that they meet together regularly to 'break bread' and discuss their faith. The NT leaves no space for loners. The Early Church would have branded 'loners' as heretics because they did not accept the common doctrine. So what is it about you that you know better than all the denominations of Christianity as far a doctrine is concerned? How is it that none of the other denominations fail to understand the bible when you do? Oh, and why do you not follow the clear way pf life of the early Christians and worship with some church or other as not to do so is certainly not following the spirit of the NT at the very least?

 
Quote
With that being said I present the case against JW.

JW's deny several fundamental doctrines of the Bible, including the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, His bodily return, the Millennial reign of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. JW's deny a literal Hell and teach that hell (Sheol in the Old Testament) merely refers to the grave. However, Psalm 9:17 plainly states that the wicked shall be turned into Hell. If the righteous and the wicked go to the same place, then Psalm 9:17 would make no sense at all. Clearly, the righteous and the wicked go to different places upon death. JW teach soul sleep but, absent from the body is present with the Lord. This is also unbiblical.
JW's teach that Michael the archangel BECAME Jesus. They try to steer away from this doctrine because it is one of the topics that can be used to show prospective JW's the fallacy of their religion. Most regular people, let alone bible scholars, have a problem with the idea that Michael and Jesus are the same person, because they are not.

JW's teach that Jesus is “a god,” but not almighty God. Jesus plainly claimed in Revelation 1:8 to be
“the almighty.” John 10:33 evidences that Jesus taught men that He is God. If God is God and Jesus is "a god" then you now have a pantheon of at least 2 gods. If Jesus is just "a god" the The father is also just "a god"

JW's don't believe in owing allegiance to the government, which is unbiblical. Biblically, although God comes first, Christians are to submit and owe allegiance to their government, as the government was established by God himself.
 
Add to this, as mentioned, the JW witnesses teach they are the one true church. They have divine revelation from God himself. Yet, they have been giving us dates for the end since they were established. When we read what a prophet is in the old testament then this shows us they are no true church. In the least they have no special contact with God.

I could supply several links to learn the teachings you don't get at the front door. As with most cults, such as the mormons, and the masons, you have to stick around for a while before they start droppin' the bombs on ya.

You are quite right about the JWs and the Mormons. They have some very interesting doctrines they keep quiet about - avoiding any such discussion to seem to be like the other denominations.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #188 on: January 10, 2014, 02:00:24 PM »
A Christian should always stick to the bible and the teachings contained in it. If your interpretation is in conflict with any part, your wrong. This is the fundamental reason I have yet to find a denomination I trust.

So, you have set yourself up as n authority as to what doctrines match the bible what what doctrines do not? This is what I was asking you about in my earlier post about ho sets the rules. Your reply here suggests that you think every individual can be their own authority on the bible and each person can have their own interpretation of the doctrines.

Pardon me for saying this, but the way I read the New Testament is that the fundamental quality of the Christians portrayed by the NT is that they meet together regularly to 'break bread' and discuss their faith. The NT leaves no space for loners. The Early Church would have branded 'loners' as heretics because they did not accept the common doctrine. So what is it about you that you know better than all the denominations of Christianity as far a doctrine is concerned? How is it that none of the other denominations fail to understand the bible when you do? Oh, and why do you not follow the clear way pf life of the early Christians and worship with some church or other as not to do so is certainly not following the spirit of the NT at the very least?

 
Quote
With that being said I present the case against JW.

JW's deny several fundamental doctrines of the Bible, including the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, His bodily return, the Millennial reign of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. JW's deny a literal Hell and teach that hell (Sheol in the Old Testament) merely refers to the grave. However, Psalm 9:17 plainly states that the wicked shall be turned into Hell. If the righteous and the wicked go to the same place, then Psalm 9:17 would make no sense at all. Clearly, the righteous and the wicked go to different places upon death. JW teach soul sleep but, absent from the body is present with the Lord. This is also unbiblical.
JW's teach that Michael the archangel BECAME Jesus. They try to steer away from this doctrine because it is one of the topics that can be used to show prospective JW's the fallacy of their religion. Most regular people, let alone bible scholars, have a problem with the idea that Michael and Jesus are the same person, because they are not.

JW's teach that Jesus is “a god,” but not almighty God. Jesus plainly claimed in Revelation 1:8 to be
“the almighty.” John 10:33 evidences that Jesus taught men that He is God. If God is God and Jesus is "a god" then you now have a pantheon of at least 2 gods. If Jesus is just "a god" the The father is also just "a god"

JW's don't believe in owing allegiance to the government, which is unbiblical. Biblically, although God comes first, Christians are to submit and owe allegiance to their government, as the government was established by God himself.
 
Add to this, as mentioned, the JW witnesses teach they are the one true church. They have divine revelation from God himself. Yet, they have been giving us dates for the end since they were established. When we read what a prophet is in the old testament then this shows us they are no true church. In the least they have no special contact with God.

I could supply several links to learn the teachings you don't get at the front door. As with most cults, such as the mormons, and the masons, you have to stick around for a while before they start droppin' the bombs on ya.

You are quite right about the JWs and the Mormons. They have some very interesting doctrines they keep quiet about - avoiding any such discussion to seem to be like the other denominations.

authority is the word of God NOT the man.
quoting this lends to what you have stated.
Hebrews 10:25
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;...

I do not disagree with your interpretation.
The Idea of church being a stationary building is not the early Christian Idea. As for doctrine you are correct. the early church would have kicked you out for not holding the proper doctrine. I believe their proper doctrine would have in the least been FULLY supported by the writings available. Are you saying that the current doctrine is correct only because it's current?
I do not pretend I am Perfectly correct. I leave my mind open for correction. I think if I have an advantage at all it's that I don't have a tradition that I was taught to me that I hold dear. I'm not trying to fit something in rather trying to pull something out. I certainly don't care if what I find offends some, as the bible does that already. I find a lot of church doctrine that is spot on.. there just always seems to be some extra garbage thrown in. That's the point when I would reject said denomination.

I do go to a church. I happen to disagree with a lot of the denominational doctrine of the church and have discussed such openly with deacons and the pastor. The fact I'm allowed to stay speaks against proper church discipline. If I could find a small group Bible based home church I would be there. It's not, to my knowledge, available in my area.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #189 on: January 10, 2014, 03:02:41 PM »
OK, Harbinger, what makes you say the the bible is
Quote
authority is the word of God NOT the man.
I assume you mean bible as that is he only source to which we all have access.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #190 on: January 10, 2014, 05:46:56 PM »
OK, Harbinger, what makes you say the the bible is
Quote
authority is the word of God NOT the man.
I assume you mean bible as that is he only source to which we all have access.

The Bible should be used to interpret the Bible. Line upon line precept upon precept. That's what I meant.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #191 on: January 11, 2014, 09:37:16 AM »
OK, Harbinger, what makes you say the the bible is
Quote
authority is the word of God NOT the man.
I assume you mean bible as that is he only source to which we all have access.

The Bible should be used to interpret the Bible. Line upon line precept upon precept. That's what I meant.

This sounds a little circular. Why would want to work like that rather than to do textual analysis as we would do with any other ancient text? We can't recover the thoughts of the author but we an decide what the words all mean and thus derive meaning. Of course, if you mean that when we find texts that don't agree on something that we should assume they do, really, both mean the same thing, then that's a different idea altogether. Its unscholarly and, in effect, cheating to get the answers one wants.

Finally, the word authority. Why do you give the book such authority to rule your life. You know it has been redacted and redacted over the time it was written and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha providing the evidence. If this was really the word of a god would that god really allow redactors to keep changing it? 
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #192 on: January 11, 2014, 03:14:01 PM »
OK, Harbinger, what makes you say the the bible is
Quote
authority is the word of God NOT the man.
I assume you mean bible as that is he only source to which we all have access.

The Bible should be used to interpret the Bible. Line upon line precept upon precept. That's what I meant.

This sounds a little circular. Why would want to work like that rather than to do textual analysis as we would do with any other ancient text? We can't recover the thoughts of the author but we an decide what the words all mean and thus derive meaning. Of course, if you mean that when we find texts that don't agree on something that we should assume they do, really, both mean the same thing, then that's a different idea altogether. Its unscholarly and, in effect, cheating to get the answers one wants.

Finally, the word authority. Why do you give the book such authority to rule your life. You know it has been redacted and redacted over the time it was written and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Apocrypha providing the evidence. If this was really the word of a god would that god really allow redactors to keep changing it?

I think (not counting) there are 3-4 threads all currently on the same topic... I JUST answered these questions on a thread you are also involved in...
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 04:06:51 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #194 on: January 11, 2014, 04:50:37 PM »
why didn't anyone want to argue against my claim for Mormon's not being Christian while JW would be strongly defended? still curious...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 04:56:21 PM by harbinger77 »
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #195 on: January 11, 2014, 05:04:41 PM »
why didn't anyone want to argue against my claim for Mormon's not being Christian while JW would be strongly defended? still curious...

For my own part, since I'm an atheist, if someone self-identifies as a Christian, I don't feel that it's my place to say, "No, you're not."  That would similarly apply in a case such as this one where someone is trying to argue that group A is Christian whereas group B is not: it isn't my right to dispute the point if I disagree with it.

It's somewhat similar to what atheists very often encounter from believers.  When we tell people that we are atheists, it is very common for us to be "informed" by believers that we're not really atheists because of (x, y, or z).  You may have heard, for example, that Oprah Winfrey recently did this to a guest on her show.  While I don't presume to speak for all atheists, I can certainly tell you that when someone tries to tell me that I don't truly believe the things that I believe, I become extremely offended, and I would expect that if I were to try to tell a Christian that he "wasn't really a Christian", he'd probably be pretty offended as well.
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2014, 08:59:24 PM »
why didn't anyone want to argue against my claim for Mormon's not being Christian while JW would be strongly defended? still curious...

Those are the magic underwear guys, right?
Aside from that, i know squat about them, nor do i want to know anything about them.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #197 on: January 11, 2014, 09:08:53 PM »
Try to imagine infinity or perfect nothingness. Can't do it. It's the same with the holy trinity. It works, but we can't really fully understand how it works. There are things our mind can't comprehend, and appealing to that inability isn't a legitimate refutation of the holy trinity itself.

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #198 on: January 11, 2014, 09:15:50 PM »
Try to imagine infinity or perfect nothingness. Can't do it. It's the same with the holy trinity. It works, but we can't really fully understand how it works. There are things our mind can't comprehend, and appealing to that inability isn't a legitimate refutation of the holy trinity itself.

Try to imagine infinity or perfect nothingness. Can't do it. Its the same with the magic blue potato on Uranus. It works, but we can't really fully understand how it works. There are things our mind can't comprehend, and appealing to that inability isn't a legitimate refutation of the magical blue potato on Uranus itself.

Wait, yes it is. Otherwise you can make up any infinite thing and no one could say otherwise.

I could sporadically say "there is this infinite god who says for me to nuke syria" and yet you say that its obvious nonexistence is not valid?
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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #199 on: January 11, 2014, 11:46:05 PM »
Try to imagine infinity or perfect nothingness. Can't do it. It's the same with the holy trinity. It works, but we can't really fully understand how it works. There are things our mind can't comprehend, and appealing to that inability isn't a legitimate refutation of the holy trinity itself.

Great. If you want to compare the trinity to abstract concepts, have at it.

The trinity is an abstract concept. Got it.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #200 on: January 12, 2014, 06:56:22 PM »
Try to imagine infinity or perfect nothingness. Can't do it. It's the same with the holy trinity. It works, but we can't really fully understand how it works. There are things our mind can't comprehend, and appealing to that inability isn't a legitimate refutation of the holy trinity itself.

What do you mean by 'it works'?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #201 on: January 12, 2014, 06:59:53 PM »
I am the last person to try to argue that the JW's have it right. They are clearly wrong-- that it why I am no longer a member. But the critical thinking that led me away from the JW's will not allow me to replace that silly belief system with another one just as unfounded and baseless. Once I started to see that the JW religion did not reflect reality, it was impossible to insert another one that did not reflect reality any better. And down the slippery slope into scientific rationality and on to godless unbelief I went!

My sister and younger brother also quit but are not hard-core atheists like me. They are more like the great mass of "unchurched" people in the US--they sorta believe in god kinda but don't follow any denomination or regularly go to any services. Not surprising that they quit, because you have to be kinda active to be a JW-- hard to be a half a$$ed JW.  Our oldest brother stayed in the religion and became a high mucky muck elder type. He still talked to me and my lapsed siblings, so I guess we were never formally excommunicated. We all went to his funeral when he died, and it was weird, but that might have just been me being surrounded by his wife and the other Stepford JW's. (My father was formally exed, but that is another story.)

So, yeah, the JW's got it all wrong. But that does not mean that the Muslims or the Mormons or the Catholics or the Scientologists got it right, either. If by "it" we mean "the real deal on god, the universe, the meaning of life and everything", well, then, they all have it wrong, too.

Not because of all the fine points of religious disagreement that people are willing to kill and die over--Jesus is/is not divine; heaven or hell is/is not the final destination; Allah is really one/two/three magical parts; Xenu is/is not the sexiest, Travolta-ist, Cruise-ist of all the gods; the unforgiveable sin is x, y or z; Israel is/is not god's chosen-ist country; you should/should not celebrate Jesus' birthday.

Because none of their views reflect reality.

Lastly on the subject of who gets to call themselves Christians--anyone who wants to call themselves one. When you are going to make categories but there is no objective test that everyone can agree on, you have to self-identify. Since there is nobody who can follow all the rules perfectly or even define without a doubt what those rules are, anyone who says they are a member is a member.

You cannot tell who is a Christian by their behavior. We are all evil sinners, after all, even the most devout Christian. We have had people come here and say that Hitler or any other horrible mass murderer can be a saved Christian if they give themselves to Jesus before they die. And of course many say that there is no way a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist can be saved, no matter how nice, kind, helpful and law-abiding they may be. Then there are the few new age type Christians who say that even an atheist can be saved if they live an otherwise "Christian" life. With that kind of strange criteria you have to let people self-identify. If they say they are in the club, they are.

It is like telling someone else who says they are gay that they are not. See, only a person who has never even thought about having sex with the opposite gender can be really gay. If they married someone of the opposite sex and had kids in their 20's, and later realized that they never were really attracted to the opposite sex and got divorced and have been with their new same sex spouse the 40 years ever since, well, not gay. Silly, they think they are gay. but they are not. &)

Either all self-styled Christians are equally Christian, or you guys need to develop some kind of written test, maybe with percentiles and rankings like the SAT.

harbinger, final question, if someone--my oldest brother, say-- was raised a JW and was told all their life that they were a Christian, and thought they were doing everything that a Christian should do, will they go to heaven or hell after death?  In fact, you could say that he died for his faith, since he refused medical treatment-- like blood transfusions-- that might have saved his life. He was an elder, remember, who devoted his entire life to the religion and died without a dime; he was not faking his belief.[1]
 1. I think he was crazy but he probably thought the same of me.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
« Reply #202 on: January 12, 2014, 09:39:52 PM »
What do you mean by 'it works'?

I can only assume he means "I think it works, but by definition, no one can ever know it works".
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